This discussion started after I posted some comments and a link to the SLTRIB article about BKP's talk. The talk is between myself; My wife's TBM friend; My oldest son and one of his friends; My sister-in-law; and an ExMormon friend of my wife's. I would appreciate any comments you might have about the way I handled this. Thanks.
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[ME] When these "Prophets, Seers, and Revelators" stand up in front of everyone and speak with (supposed) authority about things they know nothing about they do severe harm to people who have done nothing wrong. Sexual attraction is NOT a choice. Science proves that more and more every day. When did YOU choose to be heterosexual? How many more suicides of young gay people will it take before people start being accepted for being who they are instead of what they should be?
Apostle: Same-sex attraction can change | The Salt Lake Tribune
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50404210-78/church-lds-sex-packer.html.cspSame-sex attraction can be overcome and any type of union other than marriage between a man and a woman is morally wrong, an LDS apostle
October 4 at 6:36pm
[WIFE’S TBM FRIEND] In exactlly what way has science "proven" anything in regards to sexual attraction? Using which scientific methods? Everyone is a child of God, but we are all still accountable for our choices and behavior. It has been that way since the beginning of time. Whether you believe in God or not, nature has established the proper order of things. Any behavior outside of that, by definition is unnatural.
October 4 at 8:33pm
[ME] People don't choose their sexual orientation any more than they choose the color of their skin, eyes or hair. Who gets to decide what is unnatural anyway? A bunch of old men who aren't able to discern the truth, much less tell it!
Boyd K Packer is a hateful man and it is shameful to call him an apostle.
Here’s some articles for you to read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animalshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_Tango_Makes_Threehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_ReimerOctober 4 at 10:13pm
[MY SON] [WIFE’S TBM FRIEND], if you are interested in the scientific methodology of research into sexual orientation, I have a few websites that could be helpfull.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed is a national online library of current and past research. After just a quick search into homosexuality in animals, I was able to find the following free article.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2826.2009.01828.x/abstract;jsessionid=F0D570D6490626CD37C3F708C602A94C.d02t01^ This article talks about research done into sexuality in animal models, specificly the ram (male sheep) and has specific methodology, observations and conclusions.
October 4 at 10:25pm
[ME] That's my boy!!! :)
October 4 at 10:30pm
[MY SON] Haha, thanks dad.
October 4 at 10:33pm
[WIFE’S TBM FRIEND] [MY SON], I read your article referencing abnormal Rams which seemed to substantiate that they were in fact - abnormal. Not sure why you all have such an obsession with proving that a small percentage of the population is the norm rather than the exception. I would sooner agree with the argument that even though some are different, they should still be accepted in society as different but still lovable.
Your position is severly undermined by the personal attacks [ME] feels compelled to make against good people who simply disagree with his opinions. I disagree with Elder Packer on several things, but can still respect him. Just because we don't agree on everything, it does not make him the poster child of evil old white men.
The personal venom you spew says so much more about how you feel about yourself than anything about those with whom you disagree. I have witnessed over the years so many people who have failed to live up to their covenants and the path is always the same. Pride, sin, guilt, failure to repent, resentment for long term guilt then blaming those with whom you disagree as though it is their fault you couldn't live up to the standards you once accepted as correct. Finally, you leave and begin to fight against what you once thought was true and correct. It is a natural progression for the mind to justify its untenable position by trying to turn things upside down.
I have no problem with your individual choices for your lifestyle. I love [MY WIFE] and accept her like family regardless of her choices. I do however, take exception to your constant attempts to attack good honest people, simply because their choices are different from yours. Try practicing what you claim to preach.
From your posts you seem to feel that you are more enlightened than silly backwards people like me. How about practicing some of that enlightenment by forgiving and letting go of the hatred that is eating you up inside? Just a thought. October 4 at 11:51pm
[MY SON’s Friend] I don't know a lot of things, but the one thing I do know is that we should all be concerned with our own personal journey to heaven (should you choose to believe in it) and not that of anyone else. Catholics have been pushing religion on me for years as I am a Lutheran. My Church allows gay and lesbian Pastors on the grounds that we should all respect each other and human beings who don't always agree. Just because a man is gay, doesn't mean that his views on God are less valid then mine. After all we are all sinners. Some of us just wear our sins on our sleeves. With this in mind I would like to point out the fact that God probably wouldn't take so kindly to a passive aggressive assault on homosexuality. Most churches are guilty of this sin, not just the Mormon church. And just remember Im not in the middle of the Mormon dog fight as seeing how I am from Baltimore Maryland.
Taking all of this into account I can personally say that I hold no grudge against the church as I hope it teaches the basic ten commandments over anything else. We are quick to divide ourselves due to our differences. If I die and I am wrong about my faith Oh well. But in the words of the United States Marine Core, Shoot um all and let God sort um out.
October 5 at 12:09am
[MY SON] [WIFE’S TBM FRIEND], the article that I made reference to was just an example of an experiment that was conducted on rams. While these rams where abnormal, it was because the scientests caused variations in brain structure and hormone levels during development.
While these rams are by no means the norm in the ram population. It is an example of a study that was conducted, which has evidence supporting the idea of a gene- regulated aspect of homosexuality.
The article and reference where only aimed at your comments about the science of attraction and methodology behind the science. As far as your interpretation, that is your own.
As far as acceptence in society is concerned, true acceptence and tolerance are two totally different animals. Neither of which where expressed in the comments made by Elder Packer.
October 5 at 12:12am
[WIFE’S TBM FRIEND] I did not see any conclusion to the research you cited saying that it had anything to do with humans, just a very small percentage of ABNORMAL rams. There in is the problem with extrapolating from one experiment or species to another. Male and Female dogs will hump anything they can when horny enough. Is that the comparison you want to make with the gayllesbian crowd. They become mindless humping machines when excited and unable to tell the difference in their quest for climax. Science has become like accounting in that statistics and research can be made to say just about anything the researcher wants it to say. That is bad science and PROVES absolutely nothing.
I am not sure we can expect "true acceptance" of behaviors that have been considered sinful since Sodom and Gommorah. I suppose that we could abandon all tenants and precepts of morality and religion if we personally disagree with them. Just remember that it is a slippery slope which leads to chaos and anarchy.
Almost all law by which mankind is governed originated with the original 10 Commandments and Mosiac law. Christ updated them and fulfilled the prophecy of his Messianic Role by asking us to live a higher law of discipline or discipleship and love one another as He loves us. He loved everyone, but never lowered the standards of behavior He established with Moses two millenia earlier. In fact, he raised the standards and warned us that we would be judged for our thoughts - not just our actions.
He forgave almost everyone and then sent them on their way with the counsel to, "go and sin no more." I don't recall him ever saying have a great time at the bisexual orgy. However, He did say that we must forgive one another if we want to be forgiven.
Holding a grudge and spewing forth venom at people you don't even know, is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die. It's just not a very good plan for success or happiness.
October 5 at 12:38am
[MY SON’s Friend] I sir am not a snake. I have no venom and I wont make you eat of the forbidden fruit, even if your neighbors do. I would advise you to stay in your house if you dont wish to play nice with the neighbor kids. It's not my place to judge. And it isn't yours either. God can sort us out. I believe all [ME] wants is to share his point that homosexual teens shouldnt feel the need to kill themselves because they arent accepted. If you however feel they should then I would advise you to write a strongly worded memo to me and then stick it up your ass. I lost my best friend to suicide because he was a closet homosexual. Have a nice day.
October 5 at 12:52am
[WIFE’S TBM FRIEND] So when the logic of your argument runs out, the only choice is to become abusive? Over my lifetime, I have had three very close friends commit suicide and none were gay. They were however all three conflicted with the choices they have made in life and their own core belief systems.
I play very nicely with the neighbor kids and they play nicely with me. Don't recall any of them ever justifying their behavior by pointing to studies regarding abberant, or genetically altered animals. You have missed my point completely. If [ME] wants to share his opinion with regards to homosexual suicide, he is always free to do so. But attacking others for having a different point of view seems to belie his whole point of accept others who are different.
If you must resort to name calling and cursing, then you should re-examine your argument for weak spots. You have a nice day as well.
October 5 at 1:06am
[EXMO FRIEND] How about this .. to stop all the bickering. God is good and just. We are all children of God. He loves each of us, regardless of race, color, skin, gender or sexual orientation. Let God be the judge of us. As long as no one is getting hurt, let people live their lives and quit judging them and telling them they have a choice. The choice they have is to love who they want to love. Worry more about the abusers, the pedophiles, the murderers. I am sure we each have things in our lives that we will be held accountable for but in this life we have no right to judge them. Let people be who they are and let them love who they wish to love -- they are not hurting anyone.
October 5 at 8:17am
[ME] [WIFE’S TBM FRIEND], your hippocracy is showing. You criticize me for my comments regarding Boyd KKK Packer while making personal attacks on myself, [MY WIFE] (who isn't even involved in this conversation), [MY SON] and [MY SONS FRIEND]. Quite frankly, [WIFE’S TBM FRIEND], you don't know me well enough to make any comments regarding my "choices". We have met exactly one time (over dinner) almost 25 years ago.
The arguments being used against gays is the same dried up old arguments that were used to justify slavery; to deny women the right to vote; and to deny blacks the priesthood. They don't work any better to justify the treatment of gays.
I find it absolutely astonishing that you feel free to state what God's will is. The last time I checked, you had no more authority to speak for God than I do or even Boyd KKK Packer for that fact. The LDS church certainly does not represent God regardless of what you may think. It is nothing more than a figment of Joseph Smith's imagination and every prophet/apostle since him has been party to that fraud. This web site sums it up pretty well:
http://20truths.info/October 5 at 4:48pm
[WIFE’S TBM FRIEND] [ME], just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I am personally attacking you or anyone else. It is you who launched the attack on my faith - one which you chose to leave. So leave in peace and let it go. My comments have been restricted to my concern for the hatred and poison in your hearts toward others.
I can accept your opinions as valid for you. Why can't you do the same for me? I can't recall the last time you posted anything but vitriolic hatred and complaints targeting those you disagree with. I understand that you are in pain. Believe me I can relate, but I can't help but wonder if you could find a way to forgive those who have hurt you, you might find some relief.
If you hate us Mormons so much, why do you choose to live in the center of the LDS world. Move to Wyoming or Colorado or anywhere that you can find a place to start over. I don't disagree with you on many of your positions, but I do find the way you attack the Church and others most offensive.
Your condescension toward anyone of faith is palpable and screams that you are tortured in the way you have chosen to live. If we are so far beneath you, why must you constantly pick on us. If you find conference objectionable, for heaven's sake don't watch it. If you find LDS people to be so not-worth-the-effort then why the never-ending attacks. Just go away and live in peace.
At any rate it's time to "man-up" and practice what you preach. Live and let live. Mind your own business and find a more productive hobby than tearing others down. Live a life that makes you happy and let go of the hatred and resentment. I truly hope you can find some peace and happiness and forgiveness. It is really a healing balm to forgive others. I wish you well.
October 6 at 1:48am
[ME] YOUR church's 13th Article of Faith states : We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Care to explain how Mr. Packer's hateful words are consistent with it?
October 6 at 4:25am
[EXMO FRIEND] "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." -JESUS in Matthew 22:39.
October 6 at 10:12am
[ME] Thanks [EXMO FRIEND].
October 6 at 11:51am
[Sister-In-Law] [WIFE’S TBM FRIEND], thanks for the great laughs I got from your long post in response to [MY SON]!
Re: abnormality - I'm left-handed. Only about 10 to 15% of humans are left-handed; therefore it's abnormal - but it was NOT a choice on my part to be born this way and i'm NOT changing my behavior anytime soon. What do LDS leaders have to say about that?
October 6 at 2:42pm
[ME] YES!!! Thank you [Sister-In-Law]!
October 6 at 4:03pm
[Sister-In-Law] We abnormals need to stick together. Something may have gone awry during our fetal development but we can still contribute to society - and even walk in the sun, if the powers that be allow
October 6 at 5:21pm
[WIFE’S TBM FRIEND] I appreciate all the irrelevant pseudo-scientific analysis, but none of it has anything to do with my point about forgiving and moving on. On some level we are all abnormal and at times will feel alone. Some find ways to rejoin the community and others find ways to further distance themselves.
The problem with distancing ourselves is that internally we know that it is we who are on the wrong path. Any first year psych student can explain how the psyche goes into overdrive creating one rationalization after another to justify our position while blaming others for our own self imposed misery.
Jesus did say that all law hangs on loving God and our neighbors. The night of his betrayal he upgraded that commandment and told his disciples to love one another "as I have loved you." Jesus loved unconditionally, but never equivocated over sin. He always told those out of step with the commandments to repent and come home and all would be forgiven and that he "would remember their sins no more."
Jesus never tolerated the eat, drink and be merry crowd. He loved them, but never accepted their behavior as appropriate. He was the one who gave Moses the law stating that homosexuality was an abomination. Not the loving of another, but the sexaul activities outside the approved bonds of marriage as instituted by God were covered in the original 10 commandments and throughout the Mosaic Law.
ANY sexual activity outside the Godly approved union of marriage is a sin. It has nothing to do with loving someone else. It has to do with sexual, physical gratification or lust. We are all free to love anyone of any gender, race, creed or other divisive designation we choose.
I am free to love my pet chicken with all my heart as long as I don't insult God by trying to mate with it. I am sure this statement will make me just as unpopular with the Man-Chickenlovers Association as it does with all of you, but it clearly illustrates the point.
By the way, as far as loving your neighbor is concerned Isn't Boyd K. Packer your neighbor, [ME]? Or are you only holding Mormons to that standard?
Let it go and live in peace. Love whomever you choose and be grateful for those who love you. While we may disagree, I still wish you happiness and all the best. Give [MY WIFE] a hug for me.
October 6 at 8:58pm
[Sister-In-Law] "Some find ways to rejoin the community and others find ways to further distance themselves.
The problem with distancing ourselves is that internally we know that it is we who are on the wrong path. Any first year psych student can explain how the psyche goes into overdrive creating one rationalization after another to justify our position while blaming others for our own self imposed misery."
Interesting words, [WIFE’S TBM FRIEND]. To the first sentence I would add, "And others find other communities where they are better, happier people."
Another interesting sentence: "The problem with distancing ourselves is that internally we know that it is we who are on the wrong path." That wasn't true in my case.
Thursday at 10:36am
[ME] !!!DELETED POST!!!
[Sister-In-Law] Ah, [ME] - you make some good points. However, your tone doesn't help your argument. May I suggest you take a deep breath? Drink some tea? Watch a funny video on YouTube?
Thursday at 12:32pm
[ME] Thank you, [Sister-In-Law]. I think I will.
Thursday at 12:34pm
[ME] After [Sister-In-Law] comment I decided to delete and revise my previous post. Here is the revised post:
Why would someone want to rejoin a community of people who treated them like dirt to begin with?
If you're going to use the Bible for condemning people for being different, you would in a much better position to argue that left-handed people are sinful and evil. There are a hundred places in the bible that refer to "right" as good or godly and 25 places that refer to "left" as evil or of the devil. There are only six places in the bible that mention gay behavior (specifically sodomy) and none that mention lesbian behavior.
If you're going to use the Bible to justify your position, isn't this the same book that condones the murder of whole cities including the animals and the ritual sacrifice of humans (Judges 11:29-40)? It would seem to me that there's quite a bit of murder, rape, theft that is condoned by the Bible. The 10 Commandments that you refer to only applied between Jews. It was okay for Jews to do all those things forbidden in the 10 Commandments to non-Jews.
Just because you don’t like the results, it doesn’t make it pseudo-science. The paper [MY SON] sited was one of many that show that homosexual behavior can be induced in animals by things that happen to them in the womb. Who are you to say that some of those things don't occur naturally in the womb, thus creating children who are gay?
If the problem is they're having sexual relations outside of marriage, the answer is simple. Let them get married. Problem solved.
What does bestiality have to do with being gay anyway?
I think your attack on [MY SON] and [MY SONS FRIEND] was completely uncalled for. You sound like you think that your friends who committed suicide are somehow better than his because they were not gay.
Thursday at 3:50pm [Sister-In-Law] likes this.
[Sister-In-Law] In my humble opinion, which you did not ask for but I am freely sharing anyway, the above post is a good improvement over the one you deleted.
Thursday at 7:50pm
[ME] Thank you [Sister-In-Law].
Friday at 12:08am
[WIFE’S TBM FRIEND] Let me clarify because we have gone far afield from any of my original points and have begun several tangential debates.
First: I haven't condemned anyone for anything. I have no problem with gay people as long as their agenda isn't being shoved down my throat. I believe we are all God's children and each is given his or her own cross or weaknesses to bear. Some are psychological. Some are physical and some are emotional. There is nothing fair about life - only that we will all be tested according to our individuality.
Second: You stated that it had been "proven scientifically" that homosexuality was a genetic trait and since it has NOT been proven, only theorized, I disagreed with your contention. Your son offered up some research - about genetically altered rams as proof that homosexuals could result from fetuses damaged in the womb. Even you must be able to see that is quite a stretch in terms of extrapolating data from one species from another. I am also sure many gay folk would object to being equated with a genetically damaged ram.
Third: [Sister-In-Law] made an even further distortion of my point by equating abnormal rams (genetically altered) with being left handed. Not sure how they might be connected, but in fairness I will defer to her on this. My point was that we are all abnormal in some way when comparing ourselves to others and therefore not a particularly good measuring stick.
Forth: I expressed my concern with the continuing battle you seem to be having with the LDS Church. I can respect and accept that you chose to leave our community and find one that was better suited to your lifestyle and choices. I have always been sad that you left, but didn't hold it against you or anyone else. Nor have I ever judged you or called you a bigot or anything else. Likewise, I made no such attacks on Jonathon, [SISTER-IN-LAW], Jo or anyone else who has responded to this thread. And I have never had anything but the highest regard and love for [MY WIFE]. The fact that we see things differently and have differing views should not preclude us from being kind and civil to each other.
Fifth: Disagreeing with someone is not the same thing as attacking them. Nor is questioning their position so that you fully understand it. I do worry about the anger you seem to carry with you. It can't be healthy in general and specifically with the health burdens you carry already. I have been there and know how taxing they are. Chronic fatigue and pain destroy the spirit and soul as well as the body.
Elder Packer is and abrupt man with less and less tact as the years wear on. As I stated earlier, I don't always agree with what he says or how he says it, but I am not going to publically try and excoriate him. We are all human and therefore capable of mistakes, pride and other weaknesses. For me to judge him or his motives would be setting myself up to be judged just as harshly someday and I will need all the mercy I can get.
I have no idea if homosexuals are made in the womb or in the home, but I do believe that every one of us is a precious child of God and that is good enough for me. There are so many false arguments being made on each side that it clouds the simple issue that we are all brothers and sisters trying to make it in an often cold and lonely world.
I guess in closing I just want to say that we may at times disagree, but that doesn't make us enemies - it only makes us brothers. I hope you see the olive branch in this post. I am trying to be more sensitive as I can be a bull in a china shop myself. I can't support your attack(s) on my faith, but I can still respect you and your point of view. Hope you can do so too. All the best.
Friday at 12:49am
[Sister-In-Law] [WIFE’S TBM FRIEND], let me clarify. You wrote, "Third: [Sister-In-Law] made an even further distortion of my point by equating abnormal rams (genetically altered) with being left handed." No. My point was I am left-handed. I was born that way. I have been left-handed for as long as I can remember, I function best that way, and I'm not changing my behavior, no matter what is said by whom. I see a parallel to at the very least some homosexuals who also say I was born this way, I've been homosexual for as long as I can remember, I function best this way, etc. As a left-handed person in a right-handed world, no one says anything about my left-handedness. Not so for homosexuals.
Friday at 9:36am
[ME] [WIFE’S TBM FRIEND]. I will continue to be critical of the LDS church as long as they continue to lie about their history and as long as they say mean, hurtful things about any group of people who are different then what they think is "normal".
The Bible has used to justify slavery; denying women the right to vote; denying blacks the right to vote; denying interracial marriage; and now denying homosexuals the right to marry. It has also been used to justify discrimination again left-handed people and the mentally ill and people born with birth defects. Some cultures still ostracize left-handed people. Jesus himself said that mental illness was cause by demon possession.
The "gay agenda" as you put it is nothing more than people wanting to be treated with equality. If you don't like it "in your face" then you should let them have what they want so they can go on with their lives like everyone else and stop being treated as second-class citizens.
Friday at 3:06pm
[WIFE’S TBM FRIEND] Guess the olive branch idea wasn't as attractive as continuing to spew hatred. The Bible hasn't caused any of those things, ignorance and fear have. Sooner or later you will realize that your hatred for all things LDS/Christian undermines any legitimate point you might be making. You could be a rational champion for your cause, but instead will continue to come across as bitter, poorly informed, obsessed and just plain sad - bordering on pathetic. I have always hoped you were more than that. I have wasted enough time seeking peace on this thread. Best of luck with your jihad Du jour.
20 hours ago
[ME] You finally said something I can agree with.
"The Bible hasn't caused any of those things, ignorance and fear have."
Just like today when ignorance and fear is the cause of continued discrimination of homosexuals with the Bible is being used to justify that discrimination.
It's no different today with homosexuals than it has been with every other oppressed group. The only change is the group being discriminated against.
It's nice to know that was an olive branch. I couldn't tell what it was as you were whipping me with it.
Peace out.
11 hours ago