I'll watch that when I get home this evening

Just from general experience ..... the trouble is that people - even very knowledgeable people - who do not have a direct knowledge of mormonism, tend to make errors about the doctrine or workings of TSCC.
Then a TBM watches the link and says "Dawkins doesn't not even know about XXXXXX, therefore everything Dawkins says, or will ever say is wrong".

of course, I am just extrapolating from previous experience. Dawkins may be 100% spot-on in this video
Ill return and report later

Dawkins kept it brief. He only talked about the BOM being a 19th c. book written in 17th c. language, not having time to draw the implication of that, and the book having "charlatan" written all over it. All of which is true but will not penetrate the brainwashed "saint's" brain.

Yes, good call by Dawkins

although I feel my original point was vindicated :-) by Bill Maher's comment about 'mormons believing that Jesus came from missouri'

You make a good point. These kinds of tiny mistakes --and Hitchens makes the same kind in "God Is Not Great"-- makes it too easy for Mormons to turn off and, like you say, assume that everything that is said is wrong. (Then again, TBMs aren't likely watching Maher or reading Dawkins.)


That said, it's not as if believing that Jesus came from Missouri is any less weird than believing Adam and Eve came from Missouri.

What seems to baffle me is we live in a world full of confuse ideas and perplexed issues. People will step far out of their way to attack individual beliefs. Making statements like "I only care about the truth" and "I'm just trying to free someone who is in a false concept." People miss the underlying frame of all of this. If someone believes in something, is sincere about it, and it builds them in a positive way, then let them believe in it. I have known people who have changed from utter addiction and suicide attempts to living a productive life and being happy all because they found religion. Whatever your beliefs are you should be allowed to hold them dear. I'm L.D.S. and proud of it. I have friends who are Muslim, Atheist, Roman Catholic,Baptist, etc. I even have friends who believe in ancestral worship(I.e The Heart of Religion in Africa). We can all learn something from each other. So with all these anti this or that posts...we should stop. And start working together, regardless of religious preference. That's the only way things will get better in this world. Just because I believe in Jesus Christ, doesn't mean I have the right to force that belief on another. After all I have read about my faith and the faith of others I have come to an understanding that gives me peace. All these hate blogs do is bring in confusion and tear down lives. It builds nothing in return.

it's not that simple.

"If someone believes in something, is sincere about it, and it builds them in a positive way, then let them believe in it."

any belief? what about believing that molesting children builds them in a positive way? you need to add *at least* the following caveats:
and as long as
* it doesnt infringe on anyone else's freedoms/rights
* they keep their beliefs to themselves

" I have known people who have changed from utter addiction and suicide attempts to living a productive life and being happy all because they found religion"

this is great, really, but just dont pretend to know how other people *really* feel, solely based on what they say or how they appear to feel--i know plenty of mormons who *say* they are happy, when they really are not--i was one of them, until i left the church.

"I'm L.D.S. and proud of it"

pride goeth before the fall.

"We can all learn something from each other"

most definitely. i hope you learn from the people here and on other websites dedicated to revealing accurate information about mormon church history, like for example how joseph smith's book of abraham is scientifically proven to be a hoax. much of the source documents are extant (byu owns them even) and we have the rosetta stone. conclusion: joseph smith couldnt translate egyptian. further conclusion: if joseph smith couldnt translate egyptian, is it plausible to believe he could translate reformed egyptian (a language, of which there is absolutely no evidence anywhere else in the world that it ever existed)?

"So with all these anti this or that posts...we should stop."

since the LDS church claims their beliefs as *facts*, it is both understandable and justifiable for websites like this one to refute such claims based on available evidence.

"And start working together, regardless of religious preference."

historically, the church has worked vigorously against the civil rights of women, blacks and most recently homosexuals and the persecution of polygamists (yet their university is named after one of the biggest polygamists in US history),

"That's the only way things will get better in this world."

i suggest people stop believing they are more "chosen" than other people, that their belief is the "true way to happiness", and other pompous rubbish e.g. the lds church claims.

"Just because I believe in Jesus Christ, doesn't mean I have the right to force that belief on another"

exactly. i hope you live what you preach and never missionary to anyone else about your beliefs--although this is in direct conflict with what your church tells you.

"After all I have read about my faith and the faith of others I have come to an understanding that gives me peace"

are you at peace about the mountain meadows massacre? how about the fact that mark hofmann duped the prophet and apostles and sold them false documents? (i have lots more examples of unsettling church history events if you like)

"All these hate blogs do is bring in confusion and tear down lives"

"hate" is simply your perception, but there is nothing wrong with hate principally. yahweh and your mormon version of yahweh uses hate all the time in the scriptures.
http://stuffgodhates.com

mormonism tore down my life and told me that i was sinful and unholy for liking and wanting sex. mormonism breaks up families by telling unwed mothers to give up their children for adoption. mormonism tells homosexuals that they are unnatural, when homosexuality is found in 450 species in the animal kingdom, yet homophobia is only found in 1 species (homo sapiens)--which is more unnatural now?

in some circumstances (and for a limited number of people) like you mentioned, religion/mormonism can/may be good for them. but the effect is purely psychological and the same effect can be achieved with professional counselling. the world is better off without religion and all the problems, nonsense, non-science, hate, war, sadness and persecution that come of it. the disadvantages greatly outweigh the "benefits". just read world history.

Yeah, pretty much this exactly ^

I would only add that with a name like RM787 it's pretty much a given that he spent two prime years of his life forcing his belief on others.

You'll probably rile a few people up with your post, especially with that silly portion where you refer to RFM as a "hate blog," but I simply think you're a little ill-informed. Yes, there are certainly a few people on this site that are unreasonably angry at the church and ferociously bigoted toward Mormons. However, if you would take the time to read a few of the Ex-Mormon Bios, you may actually see that many people here, if not most of us, have some legitimate troubles with the church, in its history, its doctrine, and its culture.

It's interesting to me that you would decry that hatefulness of this recovery website yet you cannot acknowledge that the LDS church has been party to repugnant and inhuman activities. The fact is, the church has consistently fallen on the wrong side of the civil rights movement throughout its history:

Its treatment of women ("I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." - early Mormon apostle and close friend of Joseph Smith, Heber C. Kimball)

Denying blacks the priesthood (and more egregious, their teachings that anyone born non-white were less valiant in the preexistence: "That negro race, for instance, have been placed under restrictions because of their attitude in the world of spirits, few will doubt. It cannot be looked upon as just that they should be deprived of the power of the Priesthood without it being a punishment for some act, or acts, performed before they were born." - Joseph Fielding Smith)

Its treatment of homosexuals (Prop 8 aside, how about the practice of electroshock therapy being used as a "cure" for being gay, or the practice of marrying gay men to straight women, or the current practice of denying them the opportunity to have a meaningful romantic and sexual relationship with a partner of their choosing?)

Look, I don't expect you to understand why it is that so many of us have a problem with your church. I'm sure you'll just assume that all of us just wanted to sin, or were insulted, or just couldn't live with all of the rules; I'm telling you, though, that you're wrong. Most of us are good people, as are most Mormons. You may think we're misguided, and frankly, we feel the same about you. That's okay. We just ask that you follow the 11th Article of Faith: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

I'd sincerely encourage you to continue to study the religion from every angle. Try to be as unbiased as you can. The label of "Anti-Mormon" is applied too liberally to people, videos and literature that show the church in a less-than favorable light. Some of the ugliness is real. I'm not telling you to destroy your testimony and leave the church; I'm simply urging you to be informed about you profess to believe. That's what many, many of us did, and it led us out.

Yes, people have a right to believe what they will, and if it helps them, that's wonderful.

However, I disagree with THIS statement:

"We can all learn something from each other. So with all these anti this or that posts...we should stop."

I think that people should scrutinize their own beliefs and those of others. Ideas or sacred cows should NOT be immune to challenges. It is by challenging beliefs that people weed out lies/misconceptions and come closer to the truth.

The truth will stand up to examination, so if you have it, you have nothing to fear.

On the other hand, if you didn't have the truth, wouldn't you want to know?

rm787 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What seems to baffle me is we live in a world full
> of confuse ideas and perplexed issues. People will
> step far out of their way to attack individual
> beliefs. Making statements like "I only care about
> the truth" and "I'm just trying to free someone
> who is in a false concept." People miss the
> underlying frame of all of this. If someone
> believes in something, is sincere about it, and it
> builds them in a positive way, then let them
> believe in it. I have known people who have
> changed from utter addiction and suicide attempts
> to living a productive life and being happy all
> because they found religion. Whatever your beliefs
> are you should be allowed to hold them dear. I'm
> L.D.S. and proud of it. I have friends who are
> Muslim, Atheist, Roman Catholic,Baptist, etc. I
> even have friends who believe in ancestral
> worship(I.e The Heart of Religion in Africa). We
> can all learn something from each other. So with
> all these anti this or that posts...we should
> stop. And start working together, regardless of
> religious preference. That's the only way things
> will get better in this world. Just because I
> believe in Jesus Christ, doesn't mean I have the
> right to force that belief on another. After all I
> have read about my faith and the faith of others I
> have come to an understanding that gives me peace.
> All these hate blogs do is bring in confusion and
> tear down lives. It builds nothing in return.


You are truly blind to your church's beliefs and system.
"We should start working together"? -- The Mormon church helps only Mormons, and not all Mormons at that. Your so-called charity work is laughable.

"(You don't have a right to force (your) belief on another"? -- What the heck to do you call your church's "Every member a missionary" program? It's all about forcing your church on others at every opportunity, at every turn. And what about your full-time missionary program?

Yes, let's talk about hate. Your church leaders are all full of hate against gays, "liberated" women, and anyone else who thinks for themselves. Your church is founded on Blood Atonement, forced tithing (lest ye be burned and/or not enter the fullness of the gospel), exclusive marriage practices, and oppression of its members. Packer is full of hate. Maxwell preached there is no such thing as unconditional love from God. Kimball intoned that women who are raped ought to choose death rather than live "stained".

Oh, your church makes me ill!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 11:45AM by charles, buddhist punk.

...is sincere? You got to be kidding. People who intentionally lie to themselves are no better than people lying to others. When you give up unpleasant truth (or more often unpleasant ignorance) for comfortable and mostly nonsensical "truths" and "answers" you are simply an intellectually dishonest coward. To demand us to respect that is laughable and to expect us to play along is downright insulting.

First of all, rm787, this website is a form of therapy for the hundreds of people who have been deeply hurt, oppressed, and damaged by the Mormon church. WHO are YOU to come here and tell us we have no right to speak our minds and work towards a feeling of peace in our own lives? We support each other and find comfort here, regardless of how your self-righteous ego percieves us.
Secondly, if you want to spread a message of love and peace, please start with people in your church first, as most of the mormons I know are the most passive-aggressive, judgemental, fake, and cruel people I know, despite the lacquered on smiles.

The video was removed by the user.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 10:28AM by get her done.

lol

why are you posting on this board?

We help each other undo the damage your church does to some families. Are you against that?

Perhaps you believe that the children and spouses of apostates should suffer as an example to anyone else who might think of leaving.

Jesus likes that.


Anagrammy

on his documentary "Expelled". Dawkins appeared as rather arrogant. I guess Mr. Dawkins would do better on the Bill Maher show as Mr. Stein made him look like a dick.

How can anyone over the age of 10 not seem arrogant when being interviewed by Ben Stein?

When I first saw Ben Stein trying to sell creationism I was convinced it was satire (like paternoster).

When I realized he wasn't joking around I'm pretty sure I lost my lunch.

Valedictorian 1970 Yale Law - not an intellectual slouch.
More here: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0825401/bio. He's not selling creationism but rather intelligent design.

The only difference is the time tables are slightly longer.

But if he went to Yale Law, he MUST be an expert on Evolution and Biology!!!!!

like raptor jesus says, ben stein is obviously slouching intellectually in the areas of biology and evolutionary theory. all he needs to do is spend some time on talkorigins:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

"Valedictorian 1970 Yale Law"

this is know as the argument from authority fallacy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

u could compare ben stein with the lawyer/"apostle" dallin oaks. his law degree doesnt make HIM an expert on homosexuality and psychology either.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2011 03:53AM by Nick Humphrey.

Creationism == wolf
Intelligent design == wolf with a sheep skin covering its back

Actually, that is a bad analogy, intelligent design is not nearly as well camouflaged as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

It's about as well dressed as "Intelligent Falling."

Who really believes in the theory of gravity, anyway?