Picking up from the Morg Underbelly Thread, since I'm thinking this just started to need it's own topic.


Boilermaker wrote:
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Will outside forces modify what is happening within the church? Will the younger members be less likely to be engaged in such behavior than the previous generation? It seems a lot of this might be more likely to be the World War II generation -- any chance the Mormon baby boomers and their children are better because modern society is less likely to accept such behavior?

vasalissasdoll Wrote:
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> I don't think that it's that they missed this sort
> of behavior, Boilermaker...
>
> Of course, like any group of people, some families
> will be worse then others. I know, too, that a
> lot of the problems in my family would have been
> there no matter what religion the were. There
> were self-medicating alcoholics in my dad's family
> long before the church, and my mother's people
> seem to have been hard-core Calvinists, who passed
> down their outlook and values anyway--that's going
> to make a mess. The difference is the influence
> that certain poisonous behaviors in the church
> have, such as "tattling" (which often means that
> you grow up with no expectation of privacy), and
> the "if there's a problem, it's with you" stance.
> Those are already common in dysfunctional
> families, but given church sanction? It becomes
> vicious.
>
> I'm seeing many families in their late 20's/early
> 30's with small children trying to compensate for
> their upbringing by going too far the other way
> right now. A lot of the children I see have no
> consistent parenting. They will be getting ready
> to enter school, and their mother is still
> handling them like one would a baby: staying in
> the same room at all times, and saying "no, no,
> no...don't do that", and moving something they're
> not supposed to touch. No chores. No punishments
> or rewards. Whatever they want to eat on demand.
> One mother in my last ward was almost crying at
> the park talking to the other mothers because she
> was so tired of sitting in a room and picking up
> after her four year old, and having him turn down
> the meals she made, and so having to get back up
> and make him mac and cheese or chicken nuggets
> every night while her husband ate.

Cheryl Wrote:
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> I taught a 5 year old who demanded to be first at
> every turn and tried to force the issue with
> screamming tantrums on the floor.
>
> I had conferences with the mom almost every day
> that year. Once she told me that she got so tired
> of lying in bed with the child for hours and
> sneaking away when the kid dropped off to sleep,
> sometimes after midnight. Can you believe it?!

That last comment I quoted from you, Cheryl, is exactly why I'm sure my TBM sister in law is one short step from a nervous breakdown.

She has two boys: 2 and almost 3, and recently had a new baby. She feeds her boys exactly what they want, and shepherds them through their day, more like a babysitter then a parent, holding their hands every step of the way. Her house is immaculate, and feels like she has to "help" me if there are toys on my floor or a few dishes in the sink if she comes over. Her day is a failure and she's a bad mom if her toddlers won't sit still for bible story time. Every child has their own bedtime, because she stays with them until they fall asleep, like the mom you mentioned. Up until a year ago, she was still up 5 or 6 times a night with her sons...as soon as that reduced at all, she was pregnant again!

The church doesn't help either...she has a calling with YW, AND is the organist, all while she was pregnant, and her husband has a job that means he works on Sunday, so she has to keep two busy little boys up on the organ bench with her.

Her husband gets the same white-glove treatment as the boys...I can only imagine what they're going to be like when they hit puberty used to this sort of treatment, and learning to expect it in their spouse or girlfriend. I can't help but think that they won't know how to care for their basic needs.

Even more, it makes me angry on her behalf. She clings to the church because it is the only thing that gives her even lip-service for such a precarious position.

As horrible and destructive as it is to beat and berate children, it's also very bad to withhold firm constant parenting practices including age appropriate consequences.

Balance is what's needed.

It isn't the parents' job to smoothe the way for kids to the extent that they never learn life's lessons. Parents need to step in as needed and augment the learning at times and not protect kids from growing and learning whatever they need to know to serve them in their lives.

The teachers I know are very worried about this trend. It's accelerated in recent years. Kids are getting to be very tough to manage in the school environment.

Part of the problem is the testing demands put on us by our states and the Federal Government (NCLB.) School is in no way fun anymore. It's very high-pressured and demanding, and I think kids are reacting negatively to the pressure.

Many older teachers, who are now retired, trace the beginnings of the poor behavior back to when women started entering the workforce in large numbers (and yes, they were fully aware of the irony since most of them were parents as well.) I still think that kids were basically manageable back then, however -- just a bit tougher than what the old-timers remember.

But add in the new testing pressures, and additional stresses put on families by the recession, etc. and the problem has gotten out of hand.

We may also be losing generational memory of how to discipline kids effectively. And no, I don't mean beatings and such. Just producing kids who will be generally cooperative with adults, who will fix their mistakes, and try to do the right thing.

I hope someday teachers can get back to putting more focus on the needs of kids and less on the excessive test results. (Just my opinion.)

The problems did start about when you said, but I tend to think the problems arose from other influences which hit concurrently and not so much from moms working.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2011 12:33PM by Cheryl.

A lot of families had very strict parenting styles in the 50's and 60's...the result of fathers who had been in the military. Is it possible that what we're talking about is in many ways a wave affect? My parents were teens/young adults in the 70's, and so complained about how permissive the younger parents they knew were, and how they were going to do it better.

They had suffered in the war, hadn't been home to bond with their kids, and didn't want these kids to suffer. The economy thrived and they could afford to give children what they wanted as more and more luxuries and entertainment possibilities were developed.

This is also the time when Dr. Spock and other child psychologists were coming into their own and parents overreacted to their more lenient advice.

Governmental social programs grew more and more pervasive. People started to expect them to solve social ills that were beyond their scope. Individual responsibility dwindled.

Parents and others started placing blame instead of accepting personal challenges. These kids grew up and joined hippie cults and lived for immediate momentary pleasures. It was a mess and we haven't dug out from it and aren't really doing the right things to solve the problems.

That's my overview, but it's sketchy because these kinds of subjects take whole books and courses, not just little RfM replies.

But Cheryl, until the administrators stick up for teachers who wish to teach and not test all the time, this problem will continue. I can not tell you how every week I am testing for something. On a good week, I only have to do a test on three kids ( my lowest ), but most weeks it is all of them. Then we have to grade all these tests, keep in their data folders, etc. We also have to print out graphs of all the test results and discuss how we are helping students to catch up. All well and good, but we would do this anyhow. Now we must present to other teachers and not be in our room planning our day.

Planning lessons is almost an afterthought. Time doesn't allow it. Good thing for us experienced teachers who know the lesson plans anynow. But for new teachers they need to do a lot of reading, experimenting to see what works etc. But there is little time. Teachers will always love kids but not the requirements put on us to take away our teaching time.

We used to do our lesson blans block-style. Now we have to print out four typewritten pages a day.

The new teachers are burning out and they don't want to stay in the profession. I can't blame them.

I retired early solely because of documentation requirements which were taking more time and energy than the actual teaching. At the end of my career I wondered how new teachers managed when they didn't have a file stuffed with ideas and lessons and a pile of tricks up their sleeves.

Testing, the strings attached to funding, oppressive oversite, and regulation have ruined the profession and also undermined the experience for students and the effectiveness of teachers. I'm sure that more California dollars are spent on regulation and management than on actual classroom expenses. I am not exaggerating!

What a waste of tax dollars, not to mention wasted time and effort of students and teachers!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2011 07:32AM by Cheryl.

I had a principal that made us do a regular 2 page and then a 4 page detailed small group lesson plan (for four grps of kids)....left there after two yrs. She was a nut case. Documenting everything is also required at my school.....scores on all tests on this document, that one, parent signatures, etc. TEsting each kid on DRA which is a test that takes A LOT of time for individual children. Honestly, I should be a secretary instead. All I want to do is teach.

I've noticed as well. And I see that this is the way a lot of high-schoolers now were parented. When I didn't have this or that and couldn't do this or that during color guard the girls would tell me to just tell my parents to do it for me or give it to me.


That kind of parenting leads to controlling teenagers, controlling to their parents and to people around them.

And I noticed. It was third grade when we had to drop everything, right in the middle of cursive, and study for an EOG test(west coast it's called CSAP).


The teaching wasn't the same. I was learning actual helpful things, and then they go on and review the things I already knew. And these teachers, they instilled a fear in me that still rings true today. I went through the two hour test in 30 minutes(I was smart!), and the teacher was PISSED! If she could she would've raised her voice, told me to check over the test.


I did, and it wasn't good enough(it took me 10 minutes to check over, again. I was smart. I knew I had the right answers to the best of my abilities.), I had to check over it like four times before she would stop yelling at me. I think I got more wrong answers by checking it over instead of doing it once.


BTW. I still don't know cursive. Can barely sign my name.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2011 01:09PM by anon123.

I think there is something to be said about moms who work. I don't think that automatically makes kids have less discipline, but I think some moms who work have a guilt complex about being away from their kids, and spoil them excessively when they are home.

I know a woman who just spent a year overseas working and had to leave her two daughters in the care of someone else here while she was gone. She earned extra money for being overseas and spent it lavishing her kids with toys and things they did not need in excess, in part to try to make up for her abscence.

I also think that spanking has gone out of style in many households. I hate spanking my kids, partly because of how I was treated when I was a kid, I don't want that for them. It is an absolute last resort for me, although it is used when absolutely necessary, and never when I am angry.

But in my house, there are other consequences instead of spanking. And they are enforced. Many parents don't know what to do if they aren't spanking. They put the kid in time out and the kid won't stay there, so they give up and nag their children or chase them around the house while the child laughs at them. I see it all the time.

Not that I am the perfect parent, but I feel like my children are mostly well behaved(when not throwing well documented fits, of course. lol) and we have a good system that works for us. That is the ruler by which I gauge my parental sucess, if I feel like I am on top of the discipline MOST of the time. But I forgive myself for a rough day every now and then. ;)

...of the long time teachers about working mothers was that the parents were (jointly) too tired when they got home to effectively discipline their kids.

Nowadays I just think that many parents don't have the skill set to do it effectively.

I'll give some real life examples. I was having a routine teacher conference one time for a third grader. I liked both the child and the parents. The parents had brought along their younger daughter who was probably in the first or second grade. While I was talking to the parents, I watched fascinated as the younger daughter got into my teaching supplies. She was making a bit of a mess. The parents did absolutely nothing to curb her behavior. Finally I stepped in to stop her. (Note to parents: If you bring other kids to your child's school conference, you can bet your last dollar that the teacher is watching how you interact/discipline your other kids. She can learn alot about you by doing this.) I've seen this same scenario repeated many times.

Example 2: We used to bring our students to the cafeteria to be picked up by family members. I would often watch school-age kids sliding up and down the row of cafeteria seats while in close proximity to their parents. I never once saw a parent stop this behavior. Teachers would tell the kid to stop doing that without thinking twice about it. (Being squirmy is fine. We don't expect kids to be perfect. But there's a limit.)

Example 3: I often see kids running and playing in stores. I understand it with a runaway two-year old. But with school-age kids? Please. The parents often do not put a stop to this. I used to watch my fragile, elderly mom be absolutely terrified of running kids, worried that they would knock her down.

These are just a few examples. What I see every day in school is perfectly ridiculous. Kids who yell at adults, kids who will not stop talking during instruction even though they've been asked to stop numerous times, etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2011 04:44PM by summer.

They have a secred dred that they'll cause emotional turmoil if they don't cater to the kids' whims. Also, the parents are desperate for emotional validation and are trying to buy love and friendship from their children.

What kids need is a safety net. They need to know their parents will step in and stop them if their immaturity threatens their growth, safety or wellbeing. So they continually test the adults hoping for stregth and direction but getting vapid responses and weak-kneed fake friendship.

Kids will test and act out continuously until someone puts a curb to their behavior. And the bottom line is, if the parents don't have the child under control, there is little that the teacher can do.

I called some parents recently to inform them that their son was yelling at me. In the background, I could hear the son yelling at the parents. Umm, okay.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard teachers howl with disbelief in the teachers' lounge because a parent has told one of them that he (she) has lost control of his (her) child.

Sad but true!

While I'm on the topic, here's one more little rant.

I taught public school classes for over thrirty years, kids of every ethnic and religious origion and economic level. I had classes large and small, usually from 20 to 34 at a time.

I never hit them or called them ugly names. I kept good order and was kind and effective day after day with good levels of progress and high test scores.

If just little ol' me can do that, then parents should be able to manage their own smaller numbers of children who are their own flesh and blood.

It just takes skill, effort, and determination. If they don't know how, they can read books or ask for help. And if what they're doing doesn't work, they need to keep searching for better ways until they find whatever works. So there you go!

Parents are afraid of their children's tempers. The funny thing is, kids will realize this and milk it.

And eventually they still throw the tantrum. So being afraid of the temper and catering to the child does not curb it.

I would rather set reasonable and consistent boundaries. They still throw fits from time to time, but they end quick enough when they realize it is not going to change my mind.

That raises a question for me: love to hear the thoughts of you teachers on this one.

My daughter enters Kindergarten this fall. She's honestly a difficult child...she can be so sweet and engaging, but she gets distracted easily, and is very intense with her emotions. Has a hard time following directions, too.

I'm worried that she'll have a really hard time adjusting to school, especially because there will be times when she constantly talks over me, or refuses to pay attention, so something that would have been a minor issue becomes a huge deal.

What should I be doing to make it easier for her teacher?

Try not to worry and keep up the good work is what I'd suggest. I'd love to have her as my student and little friend.

Thanks Cheryl...good to hear I'm headed in the right direction. MIL I keep complaining about got her Masters in Child Development...keeps insisting that the only way to "fix these problems" is to take my daughter to church so she gets negative feedback from the teacher and other kids when she steps out of line.

I'd much rather make sure she has a good experience, both at church and school, myself...

Trust your own instinct. MIL's child development studies are twisted and marginalized by her TBM mindset.

Does your school district offer that as an option?

A few ideas:

Attention: observe her watching her favorite TV show or movie. If she can watch it for 20-30 minutes uninterrupted, she doesn't have an attention problem! :-)

Following directions: Maybe you could work on simple, short projects with her, i.e. putting M&M's on cookies, cutting out paper flowers to decorate her bedroom door, etc. Any kind of cutting and pasting activity is wonderful.

Talking over you: you can practice taking turns talking by having a small, stuffed, "talking animal." The rules is, you can only talk when you are holding the animal. Pick a topic such as, what are your favorite things to do on Saturdays? Let her say a few things that she likes to do. Then she has to pass the animal to you so that you can talk. If you don't have the animal, you can't talk! Give her a small reward if she does well with this.

The absolutely best thing that you can do to help her is to read to her every day. Get a bunch of picture books from the public library. Include the classic fairytales and folktales. Sit on the edge of her bed with her just before bed, and read to her, pointing to the words. It's okay to read the same stories many times.

Also, have her practice pointing to same set objects and counting them, i.e. counting spoons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2011 05:50AM by summer.

All the pre-K programs where we've been living have been expensive, so I haven't been able to do that, unfortunately.

She helps me do whatever I'm up to, though. Unloading the dishwasher? She sorts the utensils, counting them as she goes. We do paper crafts to decorate before holidays, or when she's bored and she gets to cut, glue, etc. She helps me bake, plant seeds, take apart a chicken to make stock(we talk about anatomy), etc, etc....whatever I'm up to, she helps and we talk about it. We read before bed every night, and I read bigger books just with her when her brother is down for a nap...right now we're in the middle of Alice in Wonderland.

She knows all her letters, and sounds out small words. Got bored counting, so I started teaching her other ways to do it(by 5's and 10's).

I've been worried that she was behind, especially since I was homeschooled, a style called "unschooling" which is entirely child-driven, until 4th grade.

I love the stuffed animal idea! I will definitely be implementing that!!!

Study for the test . . . what a loosing proposition! Count back thirty years and we all did one test: the Iowa Basic Skills/Stanford Apptitude.

And the directions were: eat a good breakfast and bring two sharpened #2 pencils to school with you.

That's it.

And because the test was distributed nationally, all students could be compared nationally. And we scored well. These days you can't compare how students are doing state to state because each state has it's own curriculum and it's own test. And the scores just keep falling.

How is that for pressure? It's no wonder anon123's teacher came unglued.

Just wait til those friends who lie down with their kids until they fall asleep get their kids into school and the kids start underperforming due to lack of motivation (mommy isn't there to hold their hand!) and discipline.

My niece and nephew, cousins not siblings, and several children from different cousins are brought up fairly strict. None of them are spanked, but none get away with stuff. My family growing up was strict but not abusive, we were spanked.

I do see kids in the stores that are throwing fits that parents give in to.

Studying for the standardized tests is a result of No Child Left Behind. Hopefully that gets the hell out of our system soon. If the test scores were too low the funding plummeted too.

They are sharing advice amongst themselves like the blind leading the blind. All they know is THEIR mom did it wrong, so they've gotten together to compete for who can protect their precious the mostest and be the bestest friend ever.
They are giving what they wanted from their own mother without realizing that their mothers gave them (mostly) what they NEEDED while still maintaining a personal integrity and life that didn't quite revolve around the kid 100% of the time.
Babycenter is nothing compared to mothering dot com or momcafe.

They all need to start singing, "You can't always get what you want..." and break little precious's heart by saying NO once in a while.
Precious is graduating college soon and coming to work with you and me. I've met some of them already.

in front of his house with only distracted 7 and 8 year olds to watch out for him.

If I were you and had a choice, I'd drive a few blocks out of the way to avoid these unserpervised toddlers. That's scary!

My daughter is thinking of going on Prozac because she is losing her mind raising a 4 year old and a 2 year old. She is a Berkeley helicopter mom. She hasn't had a good night's sleep in quite some time because both kids and the dog have been sleeping in the family bed. She tells me it's called "attachment parenting" and she is very disapproving of working mothers. These financially secure stay-at-home mother's have some interesting child-rearing philosophies. When I asked my daughter, who is exhausted, why she thinks her job is to give everybody what they want or think they want all day long, she said this, "Believe it or not, Mother, that is what a mom is supposed to do."

It is madness. She doesn't serve lunch because she says it's better for the kids and easier for her to just let them snack all day until dinner. This means all day long, it's "Mommy I hungry, Mommy I need banana, Mommy I wan cracker, Mommy I need you, I need water, I need apple." So when evening comes, she's practically a character off a cartoon show--the one whose eyes are bulging and everyone tiptoes around.

Neither she nor her husband can say, "No." I told her this week that her job is to set boundaries and limits so that her child feels safe. She says yes, but is apparently curing some emotional deficit within herself. She's in the middle of a large family and feels she didn't get enough mothering, wasn't nursed long enough, didn't get her emotional needs met, to put it bluntly, so she's making it up with her own children.

I visit several times a week and the kids mind me just fine. At first the boy told me it was his house and he was in charge when his mother was gone. I told him no, I'm in charge and furthermore everybody obeys Grandma Kathy and he threatened me! I shut the game board up and told him that was bad sportsmanship and the game was over. He said, "no, no, I still want to play" and I said firmly, no and further more, I'm going home. I didn't see him again for two weeks and the first thing he said was "I'm good sportsmanship so can we play checkers?"

Once when my daughter wasn't looking, he stabbed me in the back of the knee with a screwdriver. I whacked his hand without even looking at him and he has never laid a hand on me again, whereas he bites and hits his mother, his father, his sister, etc.

My daughter is very hurt that I disapprove of her childrearing philosophy and I am absolutely certain she is headed for heartbreak. Can this possibly end well?

Anagrammy

Your daughter is so mistaken about her role as a parent, I wouldn't know where to begin.

This is a worrisome situation with no easy answers unless she'll read a book on the subject or go to parenting classes.

My thoughts are with you and this family.

Kids who have been spoiled rotten are among the biggest behavior issues that public schools face.

This concept has gotten so darn twisted I can hardly stand it.

The original idea was for babies--babies, mind you, not older children--to get a good foundation by having lots of touch in their early lives.

Now, I see a lot of parents confusing attachment parenting with helicopter parenting: they'll leave the infant isolated and alone in a crib or carrier all the time, but then hover as soon as they get big enough to crawl or walk. It leads to a rather insecure child, in my opinion.

I had my son when we were living in CA, and had read a lot about (real) attachment parenting. Members of the ward were shocked that I was up and active again two weeks after a C-section, fully functioning. I did everything with him upright in a sling or wrap. He'd look around when he wanted to, and snuggle in and sleep when he needed it. Very little crying, and I was able to do everything I needed to. Once he got bigger, I switched him over to my back. By the time he was too heavy for the swing, he was learning to walk, and is a very secure, confident little boy.

I learned from my mistakes with his sister, and made sure he slept in his own bed. Either child is still welcome in ours if they're sick, or having a rough night, but if they disrupt our sleep for no good reason, they go right back to their own beds! Attachment parenting doesn't mean that the adults in the relationship are allowed no boundaries. It's supposed to mean that the child gets plenty of loving contact while they're too small to spoil, giving them a very secure start, and making that separation of "Mine" vs. "yours" when they're a toddler easier for both sides.

Is she Mormon?

Not that Mormons are the only culprits of bad parenting, by any means...

Many many stay at home moms feel like if they do not have a "real job," they have to run themselves ragged waiting on everyone else hand and foot so they are not the lazy mom, eating chocolate and watching Oprah. lol

They don't realize they are not doing their children any favors. My kids are responsible for cleaning up their rooms(I work with them and keep them on task,) and cleaning up any spills they make as best they can. They also love to help cook, and they help unload the dishwasher. They are the only kids I know of all the families I know who have any amount of responsibility.

My DH on the other hand, is way spoiled. :)

Interesting . . . I did attachment parenting, had the kids in my bed, etc, . . but I didn't make the mistake of believing that it meant being the center of my child's universe beyond the age of about 1 1/2.

When babies are old enought to start walking, talking, and sitting up to the table and eating normally, it's time for them to start making friends, learning manners and get their own beds in their own rooms and learn to separate and be their own person. With rules about things like cleaning up their messes, talking back and how they treat others.

I've noticed that this generations attachment parents don't even allow their kids out their sight when they are 3, 4 & 5. They have no playmates, no rules or boundaries, and many are going straight into homeschooling.

It's gone way too far in the wrong direction! Check out the film called 'Babies'! You see 4 Babies in 4 cultures go throught their first year. It's fascinating--and while the babies from other cultures have some wierd stuff going on because of who they are and where they are from, the American baby and her parents are creepy as hell.

I waitress part time, and what people allow their children to get away with amazes me. It seems to be common practice to allow your child to get down from the chair and run around the restaurant after they are done eating while the adults completely ignore them. If the child screams, the parents ignore it and just let it scream. I've had nice childless couples get up and walk out because they can't take the screaming anymore.

On Saturday night, while we were crazy busy, a little boy (7 or so?) crawled out from under a table and grabbed my leg while I was carrying a plate of sizzling fajitas. The parents thought nothing of it!

And then the nutrition--probably 75% of the people that come in order their child nothing but a plate of french fries and ranch dressing. How is that an appropriate meal? No nutritional value whatsoever! But it keeps the children distracted for 10 minutes so I suppose they think its ok.

Any time I start thinking I want children, I take a good look around me and the urge passes fairly quickly.

I admit I only read half the thread. I agree that parents today are often too lax and that things have gone downhill.

Just to play Flying Spaghetti Monter's Nemesis advocate though - consider how in some ways it's so much harder to be a parent today. (And yes, I am a parent myself). Especially in terms of time spent with kids and stress load due to a screwed up world.

Here's what I mean: When I was a kid, on school days I'd come home and spend from 4 until sundown riding bikes with my friends, making snow forts, or whatever. On non-school days I'd be outside (or sent outside) by mid-morning and would be gone most of the day. It was the "good old days" when parents didn't need to fear their kids going off to ride bikes and dig for worms and what not. Consequently, my parents - who were in fact very good parents - had plenty of "down time" where they didn't have kids in their faces.

Fast-forward to today. I can't let my kids get on their bikes at 10AM and go wherever and stay out until sundown. Between traffic, pedophiles and kidnappers, nosy neighbors, and all the other crap out there, they have to stay in our neighborhood and I have to be outside with them or one of our neighbors will complain that our children are unsupervised (even if they're just playing nicely with other neighborhood kids). And I don't totally blame the neighbors.... they know the dangers of kids being outside alone today, even in front of their own houses.

So to get to my point: In my opinion, parents today have to be with their kids FAR MORE than in days past. And as we all know kids can be very demanding and tiring - even the best kids can be this way. So I wonder if part of the parenting problems of today stem from exhausted parents who are just too tired to do anything but say, "screw it, here's your donut, here's your movie, just give me a little time to myself".