I'm having trouble with something. I had genuine religious experiences while being active in the church, i.e. attending the temple and doing genealogy. I honestly felt the Lord in those experiences. I was happy for those moments.

How can I reconcile the fact that I know Joseph Smith was not the prophet of a "restoration" with those experiences? This is extremely troubling to me and if anyone has any experience like this, I'd really appreciate your advice.

It is not surprising you would feel happy. You were learning about your past. You were discovering information about people related to you. You felt like you were doing something good for them. I would be surprised if you didn't feel good when you were doing that type of work. Maybe that is why the church encourages it so much. The natural feelings of love that people have for their family and relatives is used as evidence that the church is true. Genealogy is also problem solving process like a mystery novel. When you find what you were looking for there is a feeling of success and elation at having solved the problem.

Thanks Helemon. You're right....genealogy is a wonderful hobby and is very fulfilling. But I actually had experiences when I was "told" where to find someone's dates so I could submit her to the temple. I worry about experiences like that. Was it vital for her to receive the "ordinances". If not, why was I told by the Spirit exactly where to find her information?

Strangely, I do not believe now that these ordinances are necessary or even Christian....it's all very, very troubling to me.

According to TSCC, every person who ever lived on Earth needs to have these ordinances done (on Earth) to enter heaven. But think about the billions of people who haved lived for whom there are absolutely no records in existence. How are those people ever going to get their ordinances done? When you look at the big picture, it just doesn't work. Either that, or MormoGod is one sadistic bastard.

You subconscious mind is constantly working on problems even when you are not aware of it.

And the answer popped into my head seemingly from nowhere. Such things are natural occurrences that happen to people of all faiths and people of no faith. It is not the hand of God.

I also had times when I was mormon where I had things happen that seemed very spiritual, where I thought for sure I was feeling "the spirit," something I couldn't deny.

I have those exact experiences, in fact many more of them, now and I resigned my membership 9 years ago. It's criminal how the leaders take normal human emotions and turn them into something that's all about the mormon church when that is blatently false.

Normal people experience feelings of elevation (described in elementary psychology manuals as a warm feeling, a tightening of the chest (i.e. burning bosom)) as well as emotional feelings that bring tears, make you feel like you could just fly and feelings of love where you can almost feel someone with their arms around you. These are things that EVERYONE experiences. When they happen to Mormons, it means the chuuuch is twoo. Why? Because that's what they've been conditioned to believe it means. When the EXACT same thing happens to me now, I recognize it as a very nice emotional response to something that made me feel really good.

I was talking to my wife tonight about this too -- I doubt very much this is the only true church on the earth, but how do I reconcile several spiritual experiences I've had in my life?

We have friends who are catholic. I asked my wife, what do you think they feel when they enter St. Paul's? Or when they see the Pope? I can't get into their brain, but my guess is that this is the spirit. Same goes for any number of religions.

I also remember when I was 14 going to youth conferences and now, in retrospect, recognizing the manipulation (e.g., slide shows of jesus with "afterglow" music in the background, followed by a testimony meeting). As a missionary, although I didn't think so at the time, I engaged in spiritual manipulation (e.g., "see what you feel right now? that's the spirit!")

Other than that, I don't know what to tell you. We're in the same boat. You're not bad for doubting. Now what I end up doing with this doubt is still up in the air (exmo, NOM, inactive).

thanks so much. It helps just knowing others had the same kind of experiences and are in the same boat as me.

You most likely would have had those experiences while in another church setting. The temple is not a religious place. It is a place to promise yourself to an organization...giving all you have to it....money, time, etc. Just what is done there that can be called religious? Any sermons on JC? Any gatherings to have Bible study? Any mission work planned? No, it is an organization that requires "payment to enter". YOu most likely would have had your religious experiences in another church, on a mountaintop, walking on a beach....all kinds of scenarios. It had nothing to do with Mormonism since JS was a fraud.

What does that mean?

You don't have to share if it's too personal, but I think sometimes people have intuition about where to find things, dangers ahead, etc. I think this grows out of experience (knowing what to look for) or in the case of danger . . . . just plain instinct (senses we aren't aware of . . . like noticing something out of place, or barely hearing something, where our brain makes an instant decision to put us on alert).

But in the church, we are told how to interpret these events, as evidence that the church is true or the "spirit" warned us. But these feelings are not unique to the LDS church. After leaving, I've sensed warning-like feelings about my kids, that led me to find out about problems that needed to be addressed. It doesn't take an outside power, just being in tune with yourself.

I had some experiences I can't explain when I was in the church. Feelings. When IN the church, I put a faith-promoting label on them to try to understand them. But I KNOW the church is a fraud now. So . . . where does that leave those experiences? I don't know. Honestly, I gave up wasting my time on things I couldn't find answers to. Agnosticism was a WELCOME relief from needing to explain the unknowable.

But there ARE some things that are knowable. One if them is that the church is not true. There is SO much overwhelming evidence, without even looking outside the approved church stuff, the type of stuff sold right in Deseret Book, that completely nails the case closed.

I've since gone atheist, but at one time, I thought that maybe God doesn't CARe if you belong to a false religion. Maybe he's willing to answer prayers and give comfort as needed. After all, nearly ALL Christian religions claim miracles.

One of the favorite tricks of the LDS is to take everyday human feelings and rename them into something they are not, faith promoting religious experiences.

out there has people who have had spiritual experiences. This includes every religion that's ever existed. Does this mean every religion is true? No, it just means that those types of emotional experiences are actually quite common in humans. We've evolved to have them.

I was talking to someone who described a so-called 'spiritual experience' to me. She was outside and she saw the figure of a glowing angel fly out from behind some bushes. She truly believed what she saw was some sort of vision. I told her people's brains are wired to recognize patterns in random shapes, and especially to look for faces or human shapes. This is why we see a face on the moon. What she saw could have been anything, but since she was programmed to believe angels exist, her brain put an angel together for her as a way for it to make sense of whatever it was she was looking at.

I then asked her how long ago this event happened. Apparently it had happened almost 10 years ago. People always remember things differently than how they happened. This is a well established fact. It could very well have been the more she convinced herself that what she saw was an angel, the more her own memory shifted to accommodated her thinking until the angel became quite a clear figure in her mind. For a memory as old as 10 years, and one she's obvious gone over numerous times to try to decipher what she saw, it would be very impressive if she actually remembered the event with any accuracy at all.

In your case, could it be possible that there were events leading up to your experience that you've edited out of your memory to turn it into some sort of ideal you were wanting at the time? Perhaps you had a subconscious hunch, and you were so shocked to find it led you straight to the person you were searching for that your memory only held onto the feeling you had in the moment.

There are so many other very logical explanations for these things. Your quandary is just one example as to why emotionally driven thinking can be so misleading and why it's important people learn critical thinking skills. It's easy to fall prey to churches who have learned how to manipulate people through their emotional responses.

The LDS church does not have a monopoly on spiritual experience, and just because the LDS church is wrong about some things doesn't mean its members can't have such experiences. The LDS church probably wasn't the reason for it.

What exactly these experiences are can be a mystery. I embrace that. Sometimes my "spritual experiences" in the LDS church were manufactured, and I find that I have more genuine spiritual experience when I don't have to fit it into some LDS box.

I recently realized that the LDS church didn't work for me any more, in part, because the mystery about it all was gone. I knew how decisions were made. The illusion of inspiration was gone. I knew how the LDS scriptures, priesthood restoration etc. were all fabricated to deceive people. There was nothing left to discover.

Wait until you have a spiritual experience that contradicts what the church spoon feeds its members. That is what opened my eyes to how misleading it is to rely on them and not use critical thinking skills to identify truth.

Too bad most of the geriatric authorities haven't reached the maturity level to realize that their emotional feelings are not God speaking to them.

was when I attended a Unitarian service and the sermon was taught by and exmo exBYU professor. And I had the most overwhelming "spiritual" experience, something I hadn't experienced in the LDS church for a very long time. I expected it to feel dark and weird in some other church, and instead it was a spiritual and intellectual feast. Not to mention the incredible music they had for the service.

Honestly, I think it was the fact that he talked about something that was incredibly interesting and deep (it was about the founding fathers as it was around President's Day). I learned some pretty amazing and moving things.

I think sometimes the "spirit" is kind of like an "aha" moment. The light goes on about something and it's exciting. But in the LDS church, once you hit your 20's, there IS nothing new to learn in the LDS church. It's just repetition of the same old stuff. Follow the manual. Reread the B of M (for the 20th time). Don't stray from the standard works. Stick to the basics (forever). The thinking has been done.

. . .unless you stumble upon the stuff they DON'T want you to know. . . . and you can't discuss THAT at church.

One of the topics I became interested in, as I started to leave the church, was psychology..... [BTW, I recommend Michael Shermer's book "Why People Believe Weird Things"]

It became clear that one of the most integral parts of TSCC - feeling the spirit - is a common feeling across all cultures, and all religions.... and also amongst those of NO RELIGION.
It can be induced directly (by a missionary telling you, that you are going to receive a testimony) or indirectly (when you are subconsciously expecting to feel good about something).

It is nothing to do with any religion, or outside force, it is simple psychology, and it has been manipulated by every religion and every religious conman, ever

Having spiritual experiences has more to do with who you are than what church you do or do not attend. It is that you are in tune with the spiritual, and is not a function of mormonism or any other religion. It has to do with your expectations and your state of mind, and your own sensitivity to the holy in life. Same with your intuitiveness--some people just have it, church or no church. It's about you and your own gifts, sensitivities, and state of mind.

Remember there are a lot of different faiths. People from other churches can say the same as you. You are finding out that God loves you, not because of the church but because of who you are and what you are trying to accomplish.
I can remember being brought to a very emotional feeling watching a film. It had a big impact on me.
For me as a Christian, those things which are good can have a major effect on you.
Trust your feelings and leave. You will be glad you did. Freedom to think is wonderful and should be sought after.

I was just like some giant satellite receiver getting messages from heaven every day. <snort>

I'm very emotionally driven and extremely intuitive. Some of us are just hard-wired that way. I don't discount your experiences at all - I've just learned that there are a variety of legitimate explanations for what happened to you (and me).

I think the posters in this thread are doing a great job covering many of the reasons for your feelings and spiritual experiences so I'm not going to add to the list. But know that you are not alone in your confusion.

These days, I feel the "Spirit" the strongest when I'm at an NFL football game. I guess that means that MY team is *true*.

;o)

Recall that D&C 9 talks about studying it out in your mind, then praying. If it be true, you get heart burn. If not, you feel stupid about what you were studying.

Can you describe the heart burn? (I know what it is, I had it many times with head-to-toe enveloping experiences.)

Most members invariably talk about feeling overwhelmed with feelings of love, of pure knowledge and a lifting feeling of the spirit. Some even go as far as claiming they've heard a voice or saw a light.

My problem with this is, most cultures and religious systems have these same experiences and signs. Hindus have the kundalini & chakras, some of which have manifestations of elation, lifting and pure knowledge while meditating. Islam has the "hajj experience" and islamic transformation that are essentially just as strong or more than the mormon burning, as exampled by those who feel so emboldened as to commit suicide for their testimony. Other xtian churches have spiritual manifestations in feelings, tongues and miracles. Miracles claimed to catholicism, sightings of Mary, and even the tens of thousands having seen lights and visions at the zeitoun cathedral (Smith had his three witnesses, the Virgin her tens-of-thousands). Sathya Sai Baba is claimed to perform many many healings, materializations and other miracles. And the list goes on. How can you claim all these witnesses are false and mormons, who make up 0.2% of the world's population, are so much better? All these deeply felt spiritual manifestations are claimed to testify that each belief is true. A spectrum of beliefs that are often contrary to the others at some level.

So I would ask, if such strong feelings and visions can testify of such diverse and opposing beliefs, how can you trust them? For that matter, food can alter mood, and medical science routinely alters mood, perception and even the experience of reality with drugs ranging from prozac to LSD. It doesn't require pharmacology to alter perceptions. Mental illness, brain injury or even just depression does it often without the victim's awareness. how can you believe or trust your feelings to tell you any truth?

No, spiritual experience based on warm chests and stupid thoughts are not truth meters.

So we're back to the facts. And they speak volumes against moism.

I truly appreciate all of these posts. They have given me a lot to think about.

I have to tell you all: since I realized that this particular church does not represent what it pretended to represent, I HAVE felt like some kind of door was opening in my spirit--and a crushing weight was being lifted from me. I can only assume that the Lord is leading me out....in any event, I'll just have to trust Him and go.

Distressed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> since I realized that this
> particular church does not represent what it
> pretended to represent, I HAVE felt like some kind
> of door was opening in my spirit--and a crushing
> weight was being lifted from me.

Good for you, Distressed. I did too, as did many many others.

The control and guilt and manipulation heaped on members is burdensome to them. The lifting of that is about the same as the feeling one got when they were "forgiven". You realize that the guilt was over teachings that were fabricated and that you are not going to be judge for violating such silly things like shopping on Sunday.

Soon enough, you'll probably find that applying the same healthy skepticism to all areas of life, where others make mystical claims without evidence and ask that you trust them, fall away from your honest perspective on life.

Best wishes to you and welcome to the exmo life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2010 10:58AM by Jesus Smith.

Other people have spiritual experiences also. The thing in common is that they all are used to validate the preconceived expectations of the person who experiences.

If you had seen an elephant wink at you, it wouldn't hit your radar as a spiritual experience. But if you had been Hindu, you may have thought it was a message from Ganesha or something. Notice when people have NDEs they tend to report a version that fits their beliefs in their culture.

You will see what you want to see. The truth is, there is usually a perfectly logical explanation for what happened without invoking the supernatural.

Check out Demon Haunted World by Sagan.

Go volunteer at a shelter for abused women and their children. You'll feel the same way there as you did in the temple.

The topic of "why do other religions give the same strong emotional response" is nearly undiscussable with my mother. It's actually one of the reasons I started looking into the darker parts of Mormon history and ended up quitting. I might have to thank her some time for that :D

I just know a load of people representing other religious views, such as Hinduism, Judaism, Islam and half a dozen "we're right and everyone else goes to Hell"-Christians. I had noticed that each of these people find massive strenght in the exact same feeling...that "I'm gonna be saved because I know the truth". They're all super happy about their own religion.

Well, the mormons always have back door. So my mom pulls either one of these cards:

a) "behold, Satan can become as unto an angel of light and deceive even the most steadfast with false feelings" (hahah, yeah, just like he did with Joseph Smith when they were selling the copyright to the BoM:)

b) "you're right, they actually GOT A PART OF IT RIGHT and so they feel the spirit. They just lack the important stuff like temples or are doing something wrong".

She's in utter denial of anyone ever feeling as strongly as she does. It's like, you can't even discuss it with her. It's like I told her cats and dogs usually come in green, blue and purple. She's like, no, you may think that but it simply isn't true. Other people simply can't feel the spirit as well as devout Mormons can...

I wish TS all the best in finding theirself in a post-mormon mindset. People get good feelings from all sorts of things, we're just wired that way. People used to love their lives thousands of years ago when there were no cars, K-Mart, hot showers or anything like that :D We feel good about stuff. If we didn't, we'd go extinct pretty quickly.

I think it's quite simple: we are human beings. It's part of what we do and how we experience our lives.

I was just as thrilled to get .50 cents under my pillow from a Tooth Fairy as I was with experiences in the Temple, for instance, or when my children were born, or when and dozens and dozens of other experiences.

It was the same general emotion, different circumstance, all part of our lives. Each time we attached a different connection or meaning to the experience.

Feel the emotion, and don't attach any particular meaning to it and see if that's possible?
Just something to think about.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2010 03:17PM by cl2.