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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: May 18, 2014 11:49PM

"...become a hiss and a byword..."

Does anyone know anything about this phrase? Its used 2 times in the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 19:14 and 3 Nephi 16:9).

1 Nephi 19:14 "... and become a hiss and a byword, and be hated among all nations."

3 Nephi 16:9 "...and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them --"

I figured it was simply a phrase plagiarized from the KJV Bible but the four verses in the KJV Bible do NOT have the "a hiss" part. For example in Deut 28:37, it says,

"And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee."

However, after searching the phrase "a hiss and a byword among..." in Google search for books printed before 1830 I noticed that it was a fairly common phrase used back then in conjunction to these Bible phrases.

For example, in a book printed in 1822 called, A Brief Exposition of the Fanaticism, False Doctrines, and Absurdities, of the People Called Shakers" it uses this similar phrase as found in the Book of Mormon, but NOT in the Bible,

"Therefore, for the Lord's sake, for your own soul's sake, and that of the blessed cause of Christianity, be not reproached and become a hiss and a by word among the nations, " re- tarn unto the Lord who will have mercy, and unto our God who..."

Another book published in 1828 has,

"...they should exist as a distinct people, a proverb, a reproach, a hissing, and a by-word among all people, from one end of the earth unto the other..."

Is this phrase by chance from an earlier version of the KJV we don't use today or did the writer of the Book of Mormon actually insert a purely 18th or 19th century non-Biblical phrase in the Book of Mormon?

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Posted by: karin ( )
Date: May 19, 2014 12:25AM

interesting question!

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: May 19, 2014 01:24AM

Thank you for the link. I searched for hiss and didn't find any verse where it combines "hiss" and "a byword."

I did however see that "hiss" was in a different verse.

So, it looks like the writer of the BoM was using a 19th century phrase not found in the Bible.

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Posted by: brandywine ( )
Date: May 19, 2014 08:38AM

Sorry, I thought both words were in those verses. Maybe it was just a 19th century phrase. I used the 1611 KJV because I read that JS used one ti help write the BoM.

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: May 19, 2014 09:43AM

brandywine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry, I thought both words were in those verses.
> Maybe it was just a 19th century phrase. I used
> the 1611 KJV because I read that JS used one ti
> help write the BoM.

I'm no expert here so I could be wrong, but I think the KJV Bible has actually gone through several changes since 1611 and that the Smith's had like a 1795 version of the King James Bible. So maybe the wording is slightly different from say the 1611 version and what we have today.

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Posted by: praydude ( )
Date: May 19, 2014 02:43AM

did your google search come up with the book "the first book of Napoleon"? I saw an exmo talk that said this book was copied for much of the BOM.

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Posted by: Ex-cultmember ( )
Date: May 19, 2014 10:54AM

So far it hasn't. I've mostly been looking at the bible and when I don't find it word for word in the bible, then I'll search in google for the phrase. The bible is still THE major source for the BOM.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: May 19, 2014 09:25AM

So, if it is found in the Bible, it is plagiarized from the Bible. If it is not found in the Bible, it is plagiarized from somewhere else. Not sure that is a very useful rule for literary analysis.

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Posted by: Ex-CultMember ( )
Date: May 19, 2014 09:39AM

Well, for a book that's purports to be a translation from a pre-Columbian record, it seems odd to find entire word-for-word sentences that can also be found in 17th-19th century English books in this translation. The 17th Century English Bible is just one of the main sources for this plagiarism. It doesn't mean we can't find plagiarism from other sources.

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Posted by: scruples ( )
Date: May 19, 2014 12:15PM

It doesn't matter. Most TBMs will say he just used that phrase as the best translation to what the plates said. That's the answer I got at least to the KJV errors being translated into the BOM.

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Posted by: onendagus ( )
Date: May 19, 2014 01:32PM

It still matters. People who believe in supernatural explanations can work their way out of ANY problem but for everyone else, it is relevant.

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Posted by: clarity ( )
Date: November 30, 2016 05:19PM

Ex-CultMember Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "...become a hiss and a byword..."
>
> Does anyone know anything about this phrase? Its
> used 2 times in the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 19:14
> and 3 Nephi 16:9).
>
> 1 Nephi 19:14 "... and become a hiss and a byword,
> and be hated among all nations."
>
> 3 Nephi 16:9 "...and to become hated by them, and
> to become a hiss and a byword among them --"
>
> I figured it was simply a phrase plagiarized from
> the KJV Bible but the four verses in the KJV Bible
> do NOT have the "a hiss" part. For example in Deut
> 28:37, it says,
>
> "And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb,
> and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD
> shall lead thee."
>
> However, after searching the phrase "a hiss and a
> byword among..." in Google search for books
> printed before 1830 I noticed that it was a fairly
> common phrase used back then in conjunction to
> these Bible phrases.
>
> For example, in a book printed in 1822 called, A
> Brief Exposition of the Fanaticism, False
> Doctrines, and Absurdities, of the People Called
> Shakers" it uses this similar phrase as found in
> the Book of Mormon, but NOT in the Bible,
>
> "Therefore, for the Lord's sake, for your own
> soul's sake, and that of the blessed cause of
> Christianity, be not reproached and become a hiss
> and a by word among the nations, " re- tarn unto
> the Lord who will have mercy, and unto our God
> who..."
>
> Another book published in 1828 has,
>
> "...they should exist as a distinct people, a
> proverb, a reproach, a hissing, and a by-word
> among all people, from one end of the earth unto
> the other..."
>
> Is this phrase by chance from an earlier version
> of the KJV we don't use today or did the writer of
> the Book of Mormon actually insert a purely 18th
> or 19th century non-Biblical phrase in the Book of
> Mormon?

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Posted by: westerly62 ( )
Date: December 01, 2016 08:32AM

Interesting find.

You might try searching the published works of the 18th-century revivalists (ex. Jonathan Edwards), the 2nd great awakening stump preachers, and the Campbellites/Restorationists. I've heard it mentioned by Grant Palmer (I think it was him) that paraphrased scriptures and turns of phrase from these sources found wide circulation and would become commonly used.

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Posted by: enginerd ( )
Date: December 01, 2016 09:43AM

I remember as a TBM googling for "a broken heart and a contrite spirit" wondering where else in the scriptures the phrase was used other than i.e. 2 Nephi 2:7; 3 Nephi 9:20, 12:19, etc. I found of course Psalm 51:17 and Psalm 34:18 and Isaiah 57:15 (which use different phrasing). But I found frequent use and references to this exact expression began in earnest, not in the old or new testament, but with the writings of John Bunyan (1628-1688) and later in the writings and sermons of the early presbyterians. Incidentally,Joseph Smith's mother, sister and brothers attended a presbyterian church, which in my mind is how the phrase entered Joseph Smith mind and thereby made frequent appearance in the Book of Mormon.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: October 16, 2021 01:08PM

Isn't Heavenly Father wonderful that he would put phrases into the BoM that early 19th Century readers would understand!?

"Written for our day..." So blessed.

(How'd that sound--best heard in a Primary voice?)

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: October 16, 2021 04:28PM

The ancient Nephites were remarkably hip to 19th century memes.

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Posted by: Oregon ( )
Date: October 16, 2021 07:14PM

I remember the neighbor witness who accidentally dropped in on Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon or Oliver Cowdery and said there were many open books on the table before them.

I don't have a reference it was something I read (along with many other daming items )before I pull my entire family out of the cult

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: October 16, 2021 07:40PM

People, it is a translator's job to convert the original document into language recognized by the intended audience for the translation. Using commonly spoken phrases of the time is perfectly normal. That's kind of the whole point of translation.

The phrase doesn't prove that JS actually translated the BoM, but it in no way disproves it either. All it proves is that JS (or whomever you think wrote the BoM) was familiar with the phrase.

The claim here that the word Adieu in the BoM disproves it is equally wrong. How did a word of French end up in the BoM? The exact same way that 521 pages of English ended up in the BoM.

On top of which, adieu is an English word, of French origin. It is no big surprise that JS was familiar with the word. It was more common in English in the early 1800s than it is now, yet we all know what it means. Being familiar with "adieu" is no big deal.

There are big enough holes in Mormonism's founding myths (BoM, BoA, First Vision, etc) to sail an ocean liner through. The words "hiss" and "adieu" are not anywhere near the top of list of problems.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: October 16, 2021 10:32PM

Reformed Egyptian will make it into Google Translate slightly after Klingon.

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Posted by: Oregon ( )
Date: October 16, 2021 11:10PM

Qapla' (“ success ”). Pronunciation . English: IPA : /kɑˈplɑʔ/, IPA : /kæpˈlæʔ/ Klingon: IPA : /q͡χɑpʰˈlɑʔ/ (vanishingly rare in English-language contexts) Interjection . Qapla' A phrase said to wish fortune on someone

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