This is on John Dehlin's facebook status today. (If it's already been discussed here, I apologize.)

http://universe.byu.edu/node/14309


. . . . However, the university has removed students who change their religious status from being LDS to any other religion or non-religion. In fact, the religious status page online tells these individuals not to change religious status through the registration office, but to start the process at the Honor Code office . . . .

Yes. I know a girl who lost her BYU scholarhip and was expelled for resigning from the LDS church. She had joined another non_LDS church and presented her eclesiastical endorsement from that church pastor. They wouldn't accept it.

In the article, the author opines that other Christians are tolerated for so long as they live by the honor code so there should be no difference with active Mormons who change religions.

However, the MORG views these two classes of people differently: one are potential converts or at the very least individuals who will leave BYU espousing the exceptional qualities of the LDS faithful. On the other hand, those kids that leave the MORG are viewed as traitors and apostates--certainly folk the Brethren do not want hanging around to influence others.

Each time the MORG take an action to attack, criticize, punish those that openly express their disbelief with LDS tenants, it is just expressing its paranoia.

I'm not sure I'm not okay with that. Faithful tithes fund BYU and subsidize tuition whether you like it or not. So, denounce the faith, get expelled. I guess a middle ground would be to increase your tuition, but that would cause outrage just as we see here.

I frankly wouldn't get my knickers in a twist. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Just sayin'...

Ron

And if you don't believe me, look here. LDS tuition is half that of non-LDS.

http://yfacts.byu.edu/viewarticle.aspx?id=85

Yes, LDS students get a subsidized tuition rate, but non-members pay a higher rate. If someone changes their religious affiliation to something other than LDS, they should simply be charged the higher tuition rate, or maybe even an extra-high one for turncoats.

But we all know it is really not about the money. "Apostates" scare the bejesus out of them, and they want to be able to say "look how leaving the Twoo Church has messed up their life", even if BYU has to go out of its way to mess up the student's life, making it a self-fulfilling prophesy.

It's not about money. It is about scaring the others to keep them in line.

BTW, this is a relatively recent policy, dating from the late 1980s, if I recall correctly. A student who got expelled before it was an official policy sued them, and they lost. That's when it became "official". LDS Inc realllly hates losing lawsuits.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2011 10:41PM by Brother Of Jerry.

If a student has already began his/her studies at the University then there should not be decisions prohibiting re admittance so long as the student continues to live by the honor code. If the honor code does not expressly prohibit a student from changing their religious beliefs, then denial of a student from continuing their education is arbitrary. That student then may not have sufficient time to apply to other programs for that academic year and may not be able to transfer all their credits 1 for 1.

The larger picture is the church should be more concerned about honesty and integrity. Are we encouraging students to lie for the rest of their academic year to continue their education? Of live as hypocrites?

Obviously, the answer is a resounding yes.

I would think that the middle ground would be more than acceptable to most people leaving the church while still at BYU. All the students understand that BYU is subsidized via tithing, and since they won't be paying it anymore it seems pretty reasonable to accept a tuition hike.

I would certainly take a tuition rise if it meant staying not having my life ruined. It certainly wouldn't be a problem to enforce the honor code on apostate students as well (you are allowed to not believe, still have to keep church standards, can't publicly attack the church, etc).

Even though they are a private institution, BYU is still an accredited University! An institution of higher learning, even! I don't care who donates what, expelling a student based upon their RELIGIOUS OPINIONS ALONE is the opposite of academic freedom.

Just because they have a kick-ass accounting program, or whatever else, does not give them permission to act like a cult and still be regarded as a respectable school.

Can you imagine Stanford kicking you out because you disagree with the political or religious philosophy of the School?

Ridiculous. There's a cult behind the curtain.

LDS membership and bishop endorsement to attend as a member. That's part of the acceptance policy.
Those are their strict requirements. They don't budge.

Why would anyone think it's OK to change their religion in the middle of attending BYU when it was a requirement to attend as a member in the first place?
The smart thing to do is to transfer to another school, then BYU doesn't care.
Students need to be smart about how they deal with BYU and religion.

It's not the same for a non-member of course.

That is ridiculous Susie. If a person grows and changes their mind about religion even after being a Mormon upon entering, Who are they to say NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT. As long as the person is respectable and doesn't bash the main religion of the school why can't they be who they really are. I don't do faking.

honestone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is ridiculous Susie. If a person grows and
> changes their mind about religion even after being
> a Mormon upon entering, Who are they to say NO YOU
> CAN'T DO THAT. As long as the person is
> respectable and doesn't bash the main religion of
> the school why can't they be who they really are.
> I don't do faking.


It's their policy. Makes no difference who thinks it's "ridiculous".
They know the policy going in. They sign an Honor Code contract.
They are adults. They take full responsibility for their decisions and actions.
That's true if it's a college, or work, or some other organization.
It's GROW UP time.

I agree that a person should not apply if they have reasonable doubts about their faith. But these are 17 year old kids applying to college and start their education on average at 18 year old. I suspect that you appreciate how much pressure there is on these kids to attend the college of their parent's choice.

But even if these kids are faithful members, four years is a long people and as you said, it is grow up time.

The larger principal is that it is the wrong message to send to a young adult that keeping up appearances and lying about your testimony is more important than being honest with yourself and others. By kicking out students who otherwise live honorably by the code just as Nevermo kids who attend BYU, the administration is punishing someone for behaving precisely according to the "honor" code--by being truthful, by having integrity, and also being honest with your fellow man. It is hypocritical of the administration and I think it fair for us to call them on it.

I get that the administration has valid concerns. BYU is after all predominately a Mormon religious experience. I could agree that re-admittance is conditional upon the student agreeing to not overtly criticize the church while on campus.

Further, why would the true and everlasting college not encourage someone to stay close to the faith with the hope of reconversion?

As to your point about taking responsibility, living a lie is not taking responsibility. And expecting the administration to be reasonable in the matter is not avoiding responsibility.

I really like the ACLU have a good look at at this. Isn't discrimination, based on religion, race or gender illegal? I don't understand!

It's a private school so they can kick you out for pretty much any reason they like. You sign a contract when you attend BYU called "THE HONOR CODE." (thunder crashes)

BYU was censured in 1998 by the American Association of University Professors for its lack of academic freedom. The AAUP is one of the oldest and most respected professional organizations in higher ed.

isn't it that religious colleges can legally discriminate based upon religion?

I fail to see the problem here. As Susie Q said, they have an acceptance policy. They have an honor code. If a person can't live with it, then go to another frickin' university. If a student gets in but has failed to understand the rules going in, then it his or her own fault. Yeah, the rules are ridiculously restrictive, but that's the price of being a student there.

Hmm, lets see. A major university wants to decide when and if a student can go to bed with someone, and with what gender, and in what position.

Nah, you're right goin ta hail. No problem there. If the students agree to be sexually repressed they deserve no sympathy from us. F em (well actually don't, they'll be expelled)

This isn't about the honor code. This is about somebody not believing anymore and changing religions.

Just FYI - I know several BYU students who no longer believe, and are just going through the motions in order to finish their degrees. As long as they don't get caught by the Honor Code office, what's the problem? Yes, BYU is forcing them to live a lie, but what do you expect, it's the same thing gays have to do in Mormonism.

I thought non members could attend. So BYU only lets in LDS students? when did this happen?

I am confused. some people are saying non LDS students can attend. susieQ says only LDS can attend. Which is it?

dazed and confused...

BYU does allow non-Mormon students to attend. There is even an officially endorsed Baptist club at BYU with the stated purpose of promoting Baptist ideals. They also allow non-Mormon professors to teach there.

A non-Mormon at BYU is constantly encouraged to convert. Students and full-time missionaries assigned to BYU (what a thought) alike go out of their way to try to convert non-Mormon classmates. And, if they convert, they get reduced tuition.

The trouble comes when a Mormon student wants to change their religion. BYU is quite two-faced on the matter. On the one hand, they appear accomodating to non-Mormon students, even providing a nondemoninational chaplain to conduct Honour Code interviews for students who don't have religious leaders to conduct the interview for them. They also encourage non-Mormons to question and change their respective religions and become Mormon. But, even as they are spoon feeding Mormonism to hundreds of students of varying religions, the notion of a Mormon student questioning his or her beliefs remains unthinkable. To quote BYU's official position, "It should be noted that the LDS applicants who have been excommunicated or disfellowshipped, or have requested that their names be removed from LDS Church records, or have formally joined another church are generally not admissible to Brigham Young University".

Note that a Mormon student does not even have to leave the LDS Church to be expelled: they simply have to join a different church. This shows that BYU is a close-minded institution with little if any interest in religious diversity, despite their numerous attempts to appear open to all faiths.

As a former BYU student turned atheist, I have personally dealt with BYU's policies on this matter. Suffice it to say, I am now happily studying at a more reputable public university.

You are right, Mormons are close minded and have no interest in religious diversity or getting along with others. And they claim to be Christian. Glad you are going elsewhere- and indeed it would be a more reputable college.

libby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought non members could attend. So BYU only
> lets in LDS students? when did this happen?
>
> I am confused. some people are saying non LDS
> students can attend. susieQ says only LDS can
> attend. Which is it?
>
> dazed and confused...

Sure many non LDS people can attend. My statement was for members.
There are some slightly different rules for non LDS (don't have to attend regularly, or have a bishop's endorsement etc). But, in my reading of the Honor Code, they are not exempt from any of it.

check out Charles Larsons presentation to the exmormon conference as posted on youtube. it has some GREAT insights of the two face nature of this matter as administer by the
(choose the most fitting expletive) MORmONS of BYU. MORmONS!

It is not just those who left while attending. Anyone who was once a Mormon but left, cannot go to BYU.

BYU is not a real university anyway. My time at BYU was a waste. I left voluntarily. I had attended another university and I knew what I was missing.

this policy was created in the 90s when one BYU student converted to evangelical Christianity and joined a local Christian church. There was definitely a fear that apostates would "infect" other members and, hence, the policy was created.

Apostate members are scary because they know the church well and they know its problems. The average non-member student just doesn't care about the church and certainly doesn't know much about it. Because of this, they are relatively harmless.

I am the primary breadwinner at my house and I refuse to pay Mormon God's tax (aka "tithing"), but my daughter goes to BYU. On top that she has a GPA that qualifies her for a 50% scholarship. Of course, the current savings are a mere pittance compared to the tithing I've paid overall, but it does give me the warm fuzzies knowing that I'm bringing down the amount they're into me for.

So you are saying it tis in the honor code that the student accepted by BYU who is a Mormon can NOT leave the religion during their time there. Another thing the WORLD needs to know about Mormonism. And the exact wording should be printed in all college catalogs too.