This is how I wrote up this incident some years ago with a couple of updates. It's a repost.

The LAST STRAW!
This is my last absurd experience with the Mormon Church. I had convinced my inactive daughter that going to church would never hurt you and we ought to go once in awhile. This particular Sunday, we decided to use the woman's restroom. When we came out of stalls and were washing our hands and had pulled up our dresses to adjust our underwear, she saw a man in the double mirrors! She alerted me while quickly putting her dress down.

As I had dried my hands and no longer had my dress up, I approached him and told him it was inappropriate for him to be in the ladies room.

He went ballistic, got right in my face backing me up against a wall as he said he had PERMISSION as he always came in to help his wife.

He maintained that his wife would only let him help her in the restroom. His wife was in a wheelchair and they were in the nursing room area that is adjacent to the wheelchair access toilet where she was eating a cracker and they had the sound up on the piped in Sunday School Lesson.

When I told him he would have to leave, he grabbed his wife's wheel chair and proceeded to shove me through the double doors to the restroom, nearly knocking me over yanking her around tipping her back and forth in his attempt to shove me out of the way so he could get out. She remained absolutely silent through out all of this.

He left my daughter and I stunned and shaking. Fortunately, I was able to keep him from knocking me over and got the doors open so he could exit.My daughter and little son got out of the way also.

He said he was leaving, however, we found out a little while later that he had only exited the building to go outside and come back in the other door by the Bishop's office where he was telling them I had attacked him!

My daughter and I were very upset, adrenaline was pumping as I had been shoved through two doors by this out of control man when the counselor motioned for us to come inside the office and speak with him and them. Needless to say, we did not enter.

When we came running and yelling out of the bathroom, a "sister" told us that this was the Lord's house and we needed to be Reverent! I could not believe my ears. In her behalf, she had no idea what had happened.

It is important to note here that this man proclaimed himself as his wife's sole provider and been taking care of her for over 20 years. I knew others had helped her in the past in the restroom. He could easily have asked one of the ladies.

She was covered from neck, to ankle, to wrist in clothing on a very warm spring day. I have worked with the elderly and assisted living and this kind of attire is suspect and warrants further investigation, especially when he maintained that she would not allow anyone else to assist her.

One of the counselors kept saying: "CALM DOWN OR LEAVE, CALM DOWN OR LEAVE.

Well, we left! Never to return.

The women and men of the church said that it was just fine for that man to be in the woman's restroom. He was there to help his wife. And besides, he would never LOOK.

This man had access to the women's restroom anytime he pleased, he was NOT helping his wife, she was having a snack in the nursing mothers area taking up all the room so others could not use the room.

He could hear all conversations and watch women and children exiting what they thought was a private woman's toilet area as he was behind the side wall where he could not be seen, lurking!

And this is not inappropriate? That complete lack of reason and logic and common sense is just unbelievable. We subsequently found out there are no laws on the books in our county to enforce about use of bathrooms on private property. The LDS Church in that area probably knew that.

It wasn't until we threatened to call the radio and TV stations and social services, and my husband wrote letters,( which the brethren maintained I forced him to do,) that we got a kind of sideways apology from the Bishop, who was absent that day.

EDIT: no visible signs of the assault, called the police but could not press charges. The police went to the man's house to speak with him.
We also called Social Services for the Elderly to have her case investigated
[Updated: July 2008 The woman in this story is recently deceased.]

UPDATE:
This incident also has an apology. One of a very few!
I happened to go to a yard sale nine months after this incident at the bishopric's home that told me to: "Calm down or go home." He actually recognized that they didn't handle it well!

What a horrific story, Susie Q! Of course you were right to flee the madness. Your privacy rights were violated in a nasty way.

I have a story that's not quite as bad, but close. My youngest brother was standing at the sink in the ward men's room. His friend was seated in a stall with the door closed. The two were talking to each other, when an elder came in and kicked open the stall door. He pulled the kid with pants down around the ankles out of the stall and screamed: "I'm sick of the homosexuality!"

It's true. They have no boundaries.

Don Bagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What a horrific story, Susie Q! Of course you were
> right to flee the madness. Your privacy rights
> were violated in a nasty way.
>
> I have a story that's not quite as bad, but close.
> My youngest brother was standing at the sink in
> the ward men's room. His friend was seated in a
> stall with the door closed. The two were talking
> to each other, when an elder came in and kicked
> open the stall door. He pulled the kid with pants
> down around the ankles out of the stall and
> screamed: "I'm sick of the homosexuality!"
>
> It's true. They have no boundaries.


That's nuts bizarre behavior...nutzo!
The thing that I didn't "get" for so long, is the number of really members with really wacky thinking!
As a convert, even after several decades, I could not figure it out.

There are some incredibly strange behaviors exhibited by people. Touch me in a restroom, see what happens.

You know what's most amazing to me about that story?

That the wheelchair woman was actually having a snack in the BATHROOM.

Ew. Who does that?

Do any of you wander into your bathrooms at home for a little snack? That's the least sanitary place I can think of to eat food in. :: shudder ::

In my old ward in Ohio, there were at least 3-4 different rooms where the sound would be piped in, so you wouldn't have to miss a thing. In the foyer outside the chapel, in the nursery, and I think in at least a couple of the SS rooms. I find it difficult to believe that the ONE and ONLY place the husband could take this woman for a snack was in the bathroom. Gross.

Who does that? Sadly many nursing mothers are forced to do that when they go out in public because they get harassed for "indecent" exposure while breastfeeding in public.

Many people demand they go - where else? the bathroom - to feed their infant.

So not surprising at all. Gross, but not surprising.

Oh, yes, I get that. But this woman wasn't breastfeeding.

I think it's horrible that moms are expected to feed their babies in the same place they change the diapers. I'd like to think if I were a breastfeeding mom, I'd just whip it out and give any haters a "deal with it!" icy stare. Or at least I'd back up any other mom who wanted a clean place to feed her baby.

The woman in the wheelchair, as far as I understand from what's been relayed in this story, had no discernible reason for hanging out in the bathroom to eat crackers. Really, the issue is, she was rude enough to take up the space that the nursing moms might need.

Do you think it was the husband's idea, so he could peep on the unsuspecting womem in the bathroom? Sicko.

Once again, these poor children.

SuzieQ's two, who witnessed this bizzaro mess and the ill treatment of that poor woman in that wheelchair, and of their own mother.

Then, those two young boys in the other story.

What do you think any of these kids learned in either case? That church is a safe place, or a haven?

That women and children matter, too?

That there are ways to try and solve even difficult conflicts, such as compromise or negotiation, or that good communication starts by being articulate and calm? And that sometimes, saying "I'm sorry" can fix a lot?

Does anyone know if that man was reprimanded for what he did, in the second story, the "sick of the homosexuality" one?

And as for the breastfeeding stories, yes. Gross. Bathrooms in public places these days, even plushy, frou-frou places, are sometimes very germy and stinky. I used to hate doing that, so I finally just stopped doing it, and began feeding my baby wherever and whenever he was hungry.

It's getting better and maybe a bit easier now (depends where you are; over here it's just plop, oh, look, a boob, that's boring, move along) but 8 years ago in the US, I got looks, I got stupid comments, eye rolls, and requests to "please go do that somewhere else, like maybe the bathroom." Like "that" wasn't feeding my baby, but instead an exotic striptease with monkeys and ponies thrown in, for show.

People are rude, people are unfair, and sometimes, you just have to fight for what you need, or what your kids need. Sometimes it's best to retreat, sometimes it's better to come out all guns blazing. Other times, most of the times, the best thing to do is to tell the truth and stick to your guns.

So glad you did both, SuzieQ. That apology was earned.

bookratt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once again, these poor children.
>
> SuzieQ's two, who witnessed this bizzaro mess and
> the ill treatment of that poor woman in that
> wheelchair, and of their own mother.
>
> Then, those two young boys in the other story.
>
> What do you think any of these kids learned in
> either case? That church is a safe place, or a
> haven?
>
> That women and children matter, too?
>
> That there are ways to try and solve even
> difficult conflicts, such as compromise or
> negotiation, or that good communication starts by
> being articulate and calm? And that sometimes,
> saying "I'm sorry" can fix a lot?
>
> Does anyone know if that man was reprimanded for
> what he did, in the second story, the "sick of the
> homosexuality" one?
>
> And as for the breastfeeding stories, yes. Gross.
> Bathrooms in public places these days, even
> plushy, frou-frou places, are sometimes very germy
> and stinky. I used to hate doing that, so I
> finally just stopped doing it, and began feeding
> my baby wherever and whenever he was hungry.
>
> It's getting better and maybe a bit easier now
> (depends where you are; over here it's just plop,
> oh, look, a boob, that's boring, move along) but 8
> years ago in the US, I got looks, I got stupid
> comments, eye rolls, and requests to "please go do
> that somewhere else, like maybe the bathroom."
> Like "that" wasn't feeding my baby, but instead an
> exotic striptease with monkeys and ponies thrown
> in, for show.
>
> People are rude, people are unfair, and sometimes,
> you just have to fight for what you need, or what
> your kids need. Sometimes it's best to retreat,
> sometimes it's better to come out all guns
> blazing. Other times, most of the times, the best
> thing to do is to tell the truth and stick to your
> guns.
>
> So glad you did both, SuzieQ. That apology was
> earned.


At the time, I did "Elder Services" as my own business, so my first thought and concern was for the woman in the wheelchair! That is why I called Adult Protective Services.

The interesting thing about the apology is the fact that the man must have been thinking about what happened for nine months! That was a heavy burden for him to carry. All that time, he could have called me, or come to my home as I lived just a couple of miles away. The second he saw me in his driveway, he made a beeline to me to make an apology for the incident.
I wanted him to know that their mishandling of the incident was because they didn't listen to me.

The man who cried "homosexuality!" was never reprimanded, and the two boys involved eventually left the church. They both have children now ;)

Call me suspicious, but I saw Red Flags all over this idea that the man could take his wife into a woman and children's bathroom and stay in there, using the nursing mother's room or mother's room as long as he wanted.

Even more suspicious was his reaction when I told him he had to leave. He was defensive and angry, and got in my face, with an entitlement issue to use the women's restroom as he pleased, then tried to ram me with the wheelchair with his wife in it while dipping her from side to side. Tipping her around like a rag doll. That was very dangerous also.

More Red Flags was her behavior and how she was dressed.

All I could do was report him to adult social services and hope that her care was monitored.

The bishopric person was yelling so loud to CALM DOWN OR GO HOME right by the office while the chapel doors were open, that someone inside closed the doors!

The bishop added fuel to the fire when he talked to my daughter in a phone call, saying something like:...well, you know what your mother is like...that really did it! She was furious with that kind of disrespect of her mother.

Somehow he wanted my daughter to think this incident was my fault, probably because that foolish man told the bishopric that I assaulted him in the women's bathroom when in fact, he assaulted me with the wheelchair with his wife in it.

A grown man, (50ish or older)..... tattled to the bishopric that he was assaulted in the women's bathroom by me, because he had "permission" to be in there.....What kind of twisted mind is that? And how twisted are people that believe that bizarre nonsense????

The reply one member gave me: the church is perfect, the people are not. I snapped right back: without the people there would be no church.

What a horrible story! So sorry you had that happen.

A couple years ago when we were still active, there were stories about men lurking in the church bathrooms in our area. My oldest was 7 at the time and I never let her go in by herself.

And yet one more reason to never go back again...

Workingwith the handicap my entire life I tend see both sides of the stories. The homosexual thing is totally out of line. However, how does a mate help the other mate who needs to use the bathroom. Modern society is moving too unisex bathrooms that allow for this type of of family situation. As a single father I never knew if I should take my girls in the male restroom or the female restroom. Certainly anyone can announce that patching Hasbro sexes and it for a few moments getting all others a chance to wait until the opposite sex leaves. I don't know if I take my elderly wife into the ladies room with an announcement or the Males. Maybe I should just stand outside both restrooms, and just use a bedpan in public. Hard choices. I just don't know the answer. I am sure this situation can be handled gracefully in without a lot of hassle by just communicating and working with other people.

get her done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Workingwith the handicap my entire life I tend
> see both sides of the stories. The homosexual
> thing is totally out of line. However, how does a
> mate help the other mate who needs to use the
> bathroom. Modern society is moving too unisex
> bathrooms that allow for this type of of family
> situation. As a single father I never knew if I
> should take my girls in the male restroom or the
> female restroom. Certainly anyone can announce
> that patching Hasbro sexes and it for a few
> moments getting all others a chance to wait until
> the opposite sex leaves. I don't know if I take
> my elderly wife into the ladies room with an
> announcement or the Males. Maybe I should just
> stand outside both restrooms, and just use a
> bedpan in public. Hard choices. I just don't
> know the answer. I am sure this situation can be
> handled gracefully in without a lot of hassle by
> just communicating and working with other people.


get her done:
I don't have a problem with him assisting his wife in the handicap restroom
It was the appropriate handicap restroom for her use.

He could have had a little sign to put on the door while he was assisting her, or someone could have stood outside directing people to wait or use the other restroom.
That was the appropriate way to handle her restroom use.

It was inappropriate, in my view, to use the restroom while other women and children were coming and going as they were next to the other stalls. It was also inappropriate to stay in the mothers nursing room and have a snack in the back behind a wall where nobody could see the two of them.

agree

Well, he could have used the other ladies restroom
, not the one adjoining the mothers room where the young moms nurse the children. And he could have put a sign on the front of the other restroom indicating he was in there helping his wife. This story is crazy.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2011 04:56PM by suckafoo.

If he really needed to go into the restroom with his wife he should have asked another women to make sure the restroom was empty first and then wait outside while his wife did her business so that no one would be surprised by his presence in the women's restroom.

Your reaction to his presence was completely normal. His reaction, however, was completely out of line.

Mnemonic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If he really needed to go into the restroom with
> his wife he should have asked another women to
> make sure the restroom was empty first and then
> wait outside while his wife did her business so
> that no one would be surprised by his presence in
> the women's restroom.
>
> Your reaction to his presence was completely
> normal. His reaction, however, was completely out
> of line.


EXACTLY!! That was what I tried to get across to the women and brethren . . . ..to no avail!!
They would rather believe that I attacked him! Strange thinking!!

And no less so because I've read it before.

Thanks for posting it again, Suzie, and thanks for the updates.

What a horrible story!! I know that they caught a sexual predator in an Idaho Falls LDS women's bathroom not too long ago. Some creep just wandered in the building, hoping for a peep show or worse...

1-As I recall, this location did have another restroom in the building that would have suited the needs of non-handicapped persons. Right?

2-This particular toilet had a handicapped toilet stall and adjoining attendant room in that church for this purpose, and others.

3-This toilet also had an attenant/or nursing mother/disabled room that had no access other than past the toilet stalls. Am I correct?

4-The husband had been given permission from the bishop to be in the toilet AND the room with piped services, as an attendent to his spouse in a wheel chair. Right?

5-The woman was dressed by the husband, and frankly, if she was anything like my Dad who is elderly and disabled, she was cold all of the time....so that is honestly, not a 'sign' of abuse. Dad is cold in thermals in the summer---still cold all of the time. Also, it was not a good day for my Dad, nor me when I let him try to go alone to a public toilet. He not only urinated on the floor, but he could not find his way out of the room and went into panic. It was not a good day for my elderly parents when my Mom let him go "to the next door down for the men" and use a public toilet. Dad urinated in a janitors closet in the floor drain. You see, OP, he must be attended in toilets and we female caregivers do not ask others to assist at this stage. There are now toilets in airports and many locations that are family or his/her toilets, but frankly, most church buildings will not have such facilities.

6-If the caregiver was peeking around the corner due to the layout, he may have had a reason...like waiting for you to leave so he could assist his wife to exit, or toilet. After 20 years of caring for a disabled wife....he was lucky he was sane. It is difficult beyond words to spend 24/7 taking care of a disabled adult.

7-Causing this husband who had permission to be in the toilet and the room with piped services a hard time because he was looking around the corner in rooms he had permission to locate? Bad call. As for giving the wife a snack? This is not relevant since OP does not know what her needs are at this stage of disability with medications, times she must have snacks, or how snacks can keep her less agitated. Only her caregiver spouse does.

8-I see it from side of the caregiver spouse, and trust me....his life is hell on a daily basis. Adding this problem to his life for him and her...this really disturbs me. NO caregiver, nor attendent of the opposite sex needs to let any other person assist with toilet and care...ever. If he had in the past, fine. He was not required to.

The man obviously felt attacked and accused of something he did not do...and again...the set up was the only location for handicapped to toilet. A spouse caregiver does not need to accommodate the non-handicapped...he simply accommodates his loved one under the worst situations a spouse, or loved one can imagine.

Having said this...I do understand the awkwardness the OP and her daughter felt in this situation and it appears everyone could have possibly used cooler heads around this long-term, disabled woman.

I see your point, but having taken care of my mom for a year (who was also wheelchair bound), I can't say his reaction was reasonable. I mean, going after her using the wheelchair (with the woman in it)??? Crazy.

And how do you know he didn't do what he was accused of?

lostinutah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see your point, but having taken care of my mom
> for a year (who was also wheelchair bound), I
> can't say his reaction was reasonable. I mean,
> going after her using the wheelchair (with the
> woman in it)??? Crazy.

Sorry about your Mom, lostinUtah. We are in year 11 with my Dad.
It wears on the full time caregiver as the disabled loved one declines.

The fact is, the caregiver in question was told to leave by someone that did not know he had permission to locate in that toilet and the room with piped in service. This is exactly why my TBM Mom quit attending church. It was simply....too difficult. Little by little, her world became smaller and smaller.

>
> And how do you know he didn't do what he was
> accused of?


I don't know, lostinutah. What has been told by the OP is this. Caregiver man did have permission by the bishop to be in that location at any time to care for his wife AND hear the service due to his wife's disablity. Caregiver man was ordered by a member to leave and told him being in that location was inappropriate. This was after caregiver spouse had obtained permission. The member had no authority in that building to make decisions regarding the use of those rooms. Opposite sex caregivers are allowed to attend a disabled person, as uncomfortable as it may be for the normal people, and this man had sought permission to do so.

From OP's post.... there were 'no' signs of abuse by the investigators. The police followed up when it was reported. The church leader sided with the caregiver. As I recall, this happened approx. 6 years prior to the death of the woman. I have read this repost for years by the OP. During this time, I have learned the difficulties of being a caregiver of an opposite sex loved one, and see this from another point of view.

Obviously, everyone over-reacted and behaved poorly, causing this situation to escalate when the caregiver was addressed by the OP.

Sorry wings, but you are wrong in about every way. There are other restrooms (and *2* nursing rooms) in this building -- I attended there for 7 years. There is no justification for using this particular bathroom area for giving a snack. It is in high demand as a nursing area (there were probably 15 different nursing moms at the time I was in the same ward) and knowing the ward, there is really no way other Moms would have wanted to share the space in order for him to administer a lunch-time snack and get a few peeks at the little girls. This area also has the nicest climate in the world ( a subjective claim, certainly, but backed with some scientific expertise). The man could have wheeled wife outside for a nice snack, and benefited from the fresh, healthy ocean breeze.

SusieQ#1's reaction was unusual. If my wife or kids had seen him in the restroom, they would have been alarmed and I would have demanded that he be removed. Nursing Moms (including my wife) sat in this very same chair this dude was sitting in, and they would NOT have been happy to share the space with him.

The bishop that SusieQ#1 describes (if I remember the time period correctly) is a short, fiery little guy named 'Bud'. He is one of the few registered and legitimately democratic/progressive people in the ward. He is a good guy, as is his wife.

I'm reminded of a similar situation in my local ward that I occcasionally attend to drop the kids off. The deacons and teachers are responsible for emptying the trash in the building. They choose to do this during the last ten minutes of the 3rd hour, interrupting every class to grab trash cans, slamming doors closed, racing to get the job done, spilling trash contents as they run down the hallway toward the exit doors. One of the bishopric members (who helpfully suggested my inactive wife 'get her life back in order' by having an iridology analysis administered by his quack wife), helps with the trash collection. He stops by the women's restroom, knocks loudly three times on the door, yells 'Trash Collection, coming in" and less than 2 seconds later enters the restroom, pulling the trash receptacles into the hallway to sort them. After pulling the stuffed, clear liners out can (filled with diapers, sanitary items, etc.), he enters the restroom without knocking and puts the trash cans back in place. My gripe is that he doesn't really even allow for time to elapse and an answer to be ventured before he enters the restroom. In fact, he doesn't even listen for a response, as far as I can tell. I imagine the stalls filled with cowering women, feet raised up, as he rummages around the restroom to extract the various trash receptacles, reaching under stalls, etc.

This guy just has no sense of boundaries, at all. As an adult convert, he just fit the Mormon mold. His bizarre personality selected him for a good fit to an LDS lifestyle where there are no boundaries or individual privacies. I'm a fairly intolerant person, I admit. This guys eccentricities may just push me over the edge to resignation. I can't be a part of a community where such violations of privacy and respect are considered normal.

skander tea bag Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm reminded of a similar situation in my local
> ward that I occcasionally attend to drop the kids
> off. The deacons and teachers are responsible for
> emptying the trash in the building. They choose
> to do this during the last ten minutes of the 3rd
> hour, interrupting every class to grab trash cans,
> slamming doors closed, racing to get the job done,
> spilling trash contents as they run down the
> hallway toward the exit doors. One of the
> bishopric members (who helpfully suggested my
> inactive wife 'get her life back in order' by
> having an iridology analysis administered by his
> quack wife), helps with the trash collection. He
> stops by the women's restroom, knocks loudly three
> times on the door, yells 'Trash Collection, coming
> in" and less than 2 seconds later enters the
> restroom, pulling the trash receptacles into the
> hallway to sort them. After pulling the stuffed,
> clear liners out can (filled with diapers,
> sanitary items, etc.), he enters the restroom
> without knocking and puts the trash cans back in
> place. My gripe is that he doesn't really even
> allow for time to elapse and an answer to be
> ventured before he enters the restroom. In fact,
> he doesn't even listen for a response, as far as I
> can tell. I imagine the stalls filled with
> cowering women, feet raised up, as he rummages
> around the restroom to extract the various trash
> receptacles, reaching under stalls, etc.
>
> This guy just has no sense of boundaries, at all.
> As an adult convert, he just fit the Mormon mold.
> His bizarre personality selected him for a good
> fit to an LDS lifestyle where there are no
> boundaries or individual privacies. I'm a fairly
> intolerant person, I admit. This guys
> eccentricities may just push me over the edge to
> resignation. I can't be a part of a community
> where such violations of privacy and respect are
> considered normal.


You brought up another memory.... the Iridologist ... I went to her ....once... ! That's a really wacko field!

Fortunately, we were spared the ridiculous trash collection!
That's just bizarre!

I'm SO glad I am no longer a part of a "community where such violations of privacy and respect are considered normal."

I put up with that nonsense for decades, with the ridiculous teaching: the church is perfect the people are not.
Well, with that many imperfect people, I'm heading out of there! :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2011 02:41PM by SusieQ#1.

skander tea bag Wrote:
> SusieQ#1's reaction was unusual.

Make that 'wasn't' unusual. I would have kicked the dudes ass if he were in the restroom peeking at my wife and daughter.

skander tea bag Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> skander tea bag Wrote:
> > SusieQ#1's reaction was unusual.
>
> Make that 'wasn't' unusual. I would have kicked
> the dudes ass if he were in the restroom peeking
> at my wife and daughter.

I would have, if had not used the wheelchair with his wife in it as protection while shoving it at me!!

What part of SAFE and PRIVATE did these members/bishopric NOT GET!!!????

Even if I had total belief in the LDS Church, I would not ever have felt SAFE in that church ever again.

skander tea bag Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry wings, but you are wrong in about every way.
> There are other restrooms (and *2* nursing rooms)
> in this building -- I attended there for 7 years.
> There is no justification for using this
> particular bathroom area for giving a snack. It is
> in high demand as a nursing area (there were
> probably 15 different nursing moms at the time I
> was in the same ward) and knowing the ward, there
> is really no way other Moms would have wanted to
> share the space in order for him to administer a
> lunch-time snack and get a few peeks at the little
> girls. This area also has the nicest climate in
> the world ( a subjective claim, certainly, but
> backed with some scientific expertise). The man
> could have wheeled wife outside for a nice snack,
> and benefited from the fresh, healthy ocean
> breeze.
>
> SusieQ#1's reaction was unusual. If my wife or
> kids had seen him in the restroom, they would have
> been alarmed and I would have demanded that he be
> removed. Nursing Moms (including my wife) sat in
> this very same chair this dude was sitting in, and
> they would NOT have been happy to share the space
> with him.
>
> The bishop that SusieQ#1 describes (if I remember
> the time period correctly) is a short, fiery
> little guy named 'Bud'. He is one of the few
> registered and legitimately democratic/progressive
> people in the ward. He is a good guy, as is his
> wife.

AHH...well, you got a lot right, but wrong bishop.
I think it was one right before the one you named.
I have another interesting story about the Stake Pres.goin gon and on and on about "TITLES".... and that bishop's name and how the kids used to say: "This Bud's for you."!! LOL

The climate is "paradise" as we often said.It was a lovely spring day.
She was way overdressed to go outside in the sunshine. She would have roasted! There were plenty of other places to have a snack.

You may know me, I conducted music for years.

Feel free to email me if you wish.
sllestodd@aol.com

wings Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1-As I recall, this location did have another
> restroom in the building that would have suited
> the needs of non-handicapped persons. Right?
>
> 2-This particular toilet had a handicapped toilet
> stall and adjoining attendant room in that church
> for this purpose, and others.
>
> 3-This toilet also had an attenant/or nursing
> mother/disabled room that had no access other than
> past the toilet stalls. Am I correct?
>
> 4-The husband had been given permission from the
> bishop to be in the toilet AND the room with piped
> services, as an attendent to his spouse in a wheel
> chair. Right?
>
> 5-The woman was dressed by the husband, and
> frankly, if she was anything like my Dad who is
> elderly and disabled, she was cold all of the
> time....so that is honestly, not a 'sign' of
> abuse. Dad is cold in thermals in the
> summer---still cold all of the time. Also, it was
> not a good day for my Dad, nor me when I let him
> try to go alone to a public toilet. He not only
> urinated on the floor, but he could not find his
> way out of the room and went into panic. It was
> not a good day for my elderly parents when my Mom
> let him go "to the next door down for the men" and
> use a public toilet. Dad urinated in a janitors
> closet in the floor drain. You see, OP, he must be
> attended in toilets and we female caregivers do
> not ask others to assist at this stage. There are
> now toilets in airports and many locations that
> are family or his/her toilets, but frankly, most
> church buildings will not have such facilities.
>
> 6-If the caregiver was peeking around the corner
> due to the layout, he may have had a reason...like
> waiting for you to leave so he could assist his
> wife to exit, or toilet. After 20 years of caring
> for a disabled wife....he was lucky he was sane.
> It is difficult beyond words to spend 24/7 taking
> care of a disabled adult.
>
> 7-Causing this husband who had permission to be in
> the toilet and the room with piped services a hard
> time because he was looking around the corner in
> rooms he had permission to locate? Bad call. As
> for giving the wife a snack? This is not relevant
> since OP does not know what her needs are at this
> stage of disability with medications, times she
> must have snacks, or how snacks can keep her less
> agitated. Only her caregiver spouse does.
>
> 8-I see it from side of the caregiver spouse, and
> trust me....his life is hell on a daily basis.
> Adding this problem to his life for him and
> her...this really disturbs me. NO caregiver, nor
> attendent of the opposite sex needs to let any
> other person assist with toilet and care...ever.
> If he had in the past, fine. He was not required
> to.
>
> The man obviously felt attacked and accused of
> something he did not do...and again...the set up
> was the only location for handicapped to toilet. A
> spouse caregiver does not need to accommodate the
> non-handicapped...he simply accommodates his loved
> one under the worst situations a spouse, or loved
> one can imagine.
>
> Having said this...I do understand the awkwardness
> the OP and her daughter felt in this situation and
> it appears everyone could have possibly used
> cooler heads around this long-term, disabled
> woman.

I think you missed the part of the episode where he was watching my daughter and I adjust our underwear. We knew that because we saw him in the mirror!

I think you may have missed the part where he attacked me with the wheelchair with his wife in it, rocking her from side to side while she tensely gripped the arms to keep from falling out.

I think you may have missed the part where he was inappropriately using the Mothers Nursing room to have snacks so no one else could use it and he could position himself to peek out and see little girls and women adjusting their underwear as they stood at the basin.


As a side note, I had seen and talked to this woman on many occasions. She was always dressed properly in the past and carried on an intelligent conversation. I worked Elder Care, I knew what was appropriate and I knew her dress and behavior was NOT! That prompted a call to Adult Protective Social Services.


I had as cool a head as possible, my adrenaline was pumping it was because I was being attacked by a wheel chair with a grown woman in it, trying to get out the double doors and not injure her or me or my daughter. My daughter held one door, while I used my back side to get through the other one, while he.... clearly angrily.... thrust that wheelchair at me!!

The simple solution was to put a sign on the door, or post someone outside the door while he assisted someone with his toilet.

The most disturbing part was, in essence, the twisted mind set of the members and bishopric we talked to that it's OK for him to be in there and he was not "looking" when we knew he was. Then they believed that I attacked him. UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

If I turned around to see some man watching me when I assumed I had privacy, I'd freak out too!

While his reasons for being there are up for debate, I'm a little shocked that there are people who don't understand that reaction.

The perpetrator and priesthood authority guy made an unfair assumption about Susie when they lambasted her for not wanting this guy in the woman's bathroom. That was a straw argument as that was not her objection.

This reminds me of some posters who latch onto a false premise like a coyote with a rat in its jaws. Susie told them her concerns but they were stuck with the rat dangling from their teeth and wouldn't listen to a mere nonpriesthood holding woman.

What bothered her was that this guy was a lurking peeping tom. Also, there were the safety issues with the wife.

Only a fool or a pervert would fail to announce his presence in some way in this circumstance.

If that particular restroom was set aside primarily for this man and his wife's use, then there should have been an announcement from the pulpit and a sign posted.

I know if I was in a man's restroom for this reason, I'd call out and tell males who happened in. "Hi, I'm here taking care of my spouse. Sorry, do you mind going to another bathroom?"

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The perpetrator and priesthood authority guy made
> an unfair assumption about Susie when they
> lambasted her for not wanting this guy in the
> woman's bathroom. That was a straw argument as
> that was not her objection.
>
> This reminds me of some posters who latch onto a
> false premise like a coyote with a rat in its
> jaws. Susie told them her concerns but they were
> stuck with the rat dangling from their teeth and
> wouldn't listen to a mere nonpriesthood holding
> woman.
>
> What bothered her was that this guy was a lurking
> peeping tom. Also, there were the safety issues
> with the wife.
>
> Only a fool or a pervert would fail to announce
> his presence in some way in this circumstance.
>
> If that particular restroom was set aside
> primarily for this man and his wife's use, then
> there should have been an announcement from the
> pulpit and a sign posted.
>
> I know if I was in a man's restroom for this
> reason, I'd call out and tell males who happened
> in. "Hi, I'm here taking care of my spouse.
> Sorry, do you mind going to another bathroom?"


Nice summation, Cheryl. The actions of the man, his dangerous mistreatment of his wheelchair bound wife, the attitudes and remarks by the members was all completely out of order and inappropriate. They basically said my daughter and I was lying and he was not doing what we saw him do. Unbelievable. They will believe him over my daughter and I?

If I had not carefully guided that wheelchair with his wife in it, gripping the arms with all her strength, out the doors, he could have dumped her out of it. He came very close! My daughter and I protected the wife. That mistreatment and misuse of an occupied wheelchair was a huge RED FLAG and one of the reasons I called Adult Protective Social Services.

would have prolly received a whuppin if Susiq#1 was my wife and i was there..... and why would anyone give permission for that scenario if there were viable options!! CULT!!!