If I remember correctly Tal recently stated that his family hardly remembers their membership as anything other than a faint memory, a past memory that no longer has relevance to their current lives.

For me personally I have researched until my eyes are ready to fall out. I needed to do this for one very big reason. I needed to be able to answer the ten thousand reasons why the Church is not true. When one runs to ground the supposed reasons that make the church true any reasonable thinking person finds that unless you inject supernatural intervention, then ignore the evidence so you can be comfortable with the delusion, the reasons simply cannot be sustained.

Personally I have not found one single thing that prove the church “true” or that can withstand logical scrutiny. Not one. Hinckley said the church is true or it is a fraud. He probably should not have said that because those with integrity are going to prove it true one way or the other, sooner or later. Those with integrity then wind up with some very, very hard decisions to make depending on family, job, social status as to how to act upon the new information learned.

It has been two and a half years and I have yet to find anything that shows the church in a truly good light. My original intent was to vindicate the mormon apologists. (I just knew they had answers for the BOA) The apologists failed me. I was shocked that they had no supportable answers. The shinning amour against Satan and the world that I thought they wore was nothing more that self righteous arrogance.

So I will get to my point.

I wanted to sure that self righteous arrogance could not BS me ever again.

Thanks to disciplining myself to research what I was told over the pulpit, and thanks to the many articulate and informative information I learned here (thank friggin Snoopy for RFM and Post-mormon!) and elsewhere, I can now see the BS accumulating on the hairs around ones mouth before the lips ever move.

As an example of where I’m at post-momon, I was at work two months ago and I had finally become able to articulate (in my mind and verbally) with the issues and historical facts of Mormonism and had opportunity to talk to a member that was just an acquaintance. I talked for about fifteen minutes as I was doing other work in the room. I could have talked for a week. He had asked me about how my doubts were going. The words came out as smooth and easy as cool running brook.

At the end he was an emotional wreck. I could see that he was in distress so I ended with “but hey, I highly recommend that if it’s working for you then by all means stick with it”. Mind you he was a 58yr old professional working for an aerospace company in a high position. Not an “unintelligent” man.
I did not care one whit what he got out of my explanations. I was calm as a summer breeze after.

I want to be where Tal Bachman is now and I want to take as many of my family members with me as I can get. I have hope for this because I am emotionally and educationally ready (I was too angry at first like many others who had a serious bout with lack of “informed consent”) for the task, but now I have the determined resolve and patience.

It’s a lonely thankless task. I’ll get no heavenly reward and no angels will have my back.

It is still the right thing to do.

It is “Standing for something “more”” then doing something about it.

or anxious anymore.

I remember in church how afraid I was to upset anyone and had to bottle my concerns to stay sociable, respectful etc. It was a mistake, as it encouraged the self rightous BS from a few at least and missionaries were trying the get baptised crap on me all the time. I should have said it how it was at the time and did do towards the end.

I don't even have respect for the crap anymore, especially now I can see clearly what the Church Leaders know and how they manipulate and deceive with the church lessons and manuals.

I don't how many of you have survived as I know how angry I felt at being duped and it was only for two years.

I believe you will get a heavenly reward if there is a God, A real one and not a BS version that crooks and con men present to us.

I recently told a TBM that I'm looking forward to meeting any real God who will say ' Well done, you didn't fall for that crap, what kind of megalomaniacal nasty evil thug were they making me out to be'?

Thats my kind of God.

And I testify that Bruce McConkie was a Prime Ass! See I am not scared to challenge the so called Lords annointed , the judges of Israel!

No disrespect meant if any of you are his relatives.

I remember once in Investigators class when I said "Whaaat you think McConkie will be judging you/us, that McConkie guy"? lol

The Teacher kind of blushed embarrassingly. I think he knew the crap of it all myself. Staying in for family ties I reckon (ie little choice).

Thanks for the post!

I've always been very respectful towards peoples religious views, and I've held my tongue in the past, but I feel I've reached the level you're at... and it feels great!

Its amazing coming to peace with yourself and your surroundings!

and its an amazing feeling leaving the church... after the initial emotional pitfall everything just seems to line up and come together in harmony. BLISS. No more lies, no more inner conflict.

I've pulled a few of my friends to the dark side too... none of them have ever complained.

I was silent and scared at first, until all my worst nightmares came true:

--My marriage broke up.
--My inlaws disowned our children, because they were never sealed to them in the temple.
--I lost every one of my neighborhood ward friends, and along with it my support system.
--I was love-bombed, harrassed, and finally shunned.
--My beloved daughter got married in the temple, and is very unhappy,living far away from us, under the harsh control of her TBM husband and his TBM family.
--I no longer feel welcome in the book club, the PTA, at the kids' games (I sit alone), at the Mormon-owned neighborhood grocery store, or any of the other Mormon-dominated places where I used to "belong."

When this happened, I realized that it did no good to remain silent, to be cooperative, to try to keep the approval of the Mormons. They made sure I suffered anyway, as an apostate. They did their worst, and I and the children survived! In fact, we have thrived!

Yes, it is like a breath of fresh air, like a running brook! I am at peace with who I am. I am reconciled with the truth.

You are right, Am I Dark Now (hilarious name!). My words flow effortlessly, now, because they make sense. As a Mormon, I had to struggle so hard to make sense out of nonsense. Now, that barrier is gone, and truth is just truth--and it doesn't have to be spin-doctored, and it doesn't matter how we say it, or who says it. And it feels good to speak the truth!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2010 05:14PM by forestpal.

And like you forestpal, my marriage has gone the way that many others have whose spouse leaves the lds church. I will finish up the paper work by November.

What is my crime? I dared to check the bible to see if god gave Abraham Hagar to wife like (I think it was Brigham) the D&C 132 says.

What I found was the lie in D&C 132. If I only found the lie then again what is my crime? Now multiply by a thousand and still what is the crime? I dared to tell about the lie I found. That is my crime.


At my exit interview with the SP and his counselor (they were unaware that it was my exit interview as I handed them my resignation when we were done) the counselor ask me “what are you going to teach your children?”. Seriously folks what kind of question is that from men who have been in this organization from birth, an organization that is supposed to be the epitome of truth?

I say stand up and call BS every time you hear it especially in church! I did it in High Priests group. It wasn’t easy and I was scared at first. However right is right and lies are lies and judgmental BS is judgmental BS.

When you hear members in church (teaching the class no less) bash others religions and call them Satanists, when you lie because of your ignorance about what the Constitution actually says, when you totally distort what Christ taught about prayer how can one who knows better stay quiet?

There are times I wished I would have stayed a member longer so I could pester them more about the nonsense being taught to what are normally intelligent men.

If there is anything that I believe it is this, that “Silence is acquiescence” and it’s a crime. I will believe this until the day I die.

AmIDarkNow? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> At my exit interview with the SP and his counselor
> (they were unaware that it was my exit interview
> as I handed them my resignation when we were
> done) the counselor ask me “what are you going
> to teach your children?”. Seriously folks what
> kind of question is that from men who have been in
> this organization from birth, an organization that
> is supposed to be the epitome of truth?

Why am I not surprised by the question "what are you going to teach your children"? . . . . It's really a disturbing question, but I've heard it before.

AS IF they think that we have some kind of duty to teach our own kids something we don't even believe. What don't they get about NOT BELIEVING? I got the impression that somehow they thought that maybe even if WE didn't believe, but we might defer to their judgement and be willing to teach our KIDS, JUST IN CASE we are wrong.

They just didn't get that it's not even a case of just not BELIEVING. It's a matter of KNOWING, through rock solid evidence that it's B.S.

When I stopped believing, my KIDS were the number one reason I couldn't stay in just for the social life. I had a duty to get them out before they got indoctrinated. Parents have a duty to protect their kids from people who would manipulate them emotionally or steer their lives in the wrong direction.

When our RS visitors asked that question at their last ever visit, my wife responded that she would teach them that they don't have to try to earn Heavenly Fathers love.

When (after a long and argumentative visit) I was asked that by my Bishop, I told him in front of my son that I would teach him to always remember this conversation that he has just witnessed.

...I'm working on that and the CD will be out sometime next year....seriously.

Like Moroni's promise, there's a verse in the D&C that says to study it out and then ask if it be true. I studied about the BoA translation issues, the lacking Lamanite DNA, Joseph Smith's married-women polygamy issues, and so many others. Studying it out showed that logically, it was hugely illogical to believe any of it.

Then I prayed, and every time I did, I got a stupor of thought rather than a burning of bosom. The stupor I got told me that it was stupid to believe anymore. Either that, or the stupor is an indication that you get a big goose egg when you pray about anything.

"It just didn't work for me."

Nobody can argue with that. Nobody can tell you that you've twisted or distorted any facts or been influenced by "anti-Mormons" or any other such nonsense. You don't give them any reasons or arguments - that would just give them toe-holds for arguing back.

Try it - it works! And it doesn't put you in the position of disparaging anybody else's belief.

And if they try to pursue it or ask more questions, politely decline, and change the subject.

catnip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "It just didn't work for me."
> And if they try to pursue it or ask more
> questions, politely decline, and change the
> subject.

Problem with family is, they assume you don't want to talk about it because you are neck deep in sin or desire to sin.

Sorry, but I won't let that stand.

I don't think hero worship is a good thing, we tend to find our heroes less than perfect and less than our expectations. And who knows where anyone really is.

Certainly there are many who find themselves and families less cognizant of Mormonism. Yet, Mormonism will always be part of our heritage, for good or bad. And life brings new challenges, some easier and some more difficult than those Mormonism presented.

but a healthy respect for the personal courage to “act” regardless of the consequences for something beyond themselves that they knew would benefit their families in the long run. They are not perfect and are not striving to be perfect because they like me know there is no such thing, but I know that up front and they are not lording over me nor do I submit myself to them. We are equals.


My personal decision has broken up my marriage and shaken the family,,,, for now. I knew damn well this might happen and because my wife’s father is an EX SP and a retired professor of History from a multigenerational mormon family the odds were not good for me retaining my marriage. But after weighing out everything including the long term effects of my children and my children’s children, the sacrifice was worth it.

My sacrifice has started to pay off as my youngest son of 16ys has thanked me (more than once) for standing up for his religious right to attend or not attend as he sees fit. If I were to just “act the part” and keep my mouth shut then I had to ask myself “who breaks the chain?” and if not me, why not me? My decision now affects how many future born?

It sucks I’m here to tell ya, this decision I’ve made. But I had to look beyond my own selfish personal and comfortableness.

It was for me the “more right” thing to do and I’m quite sure that there will be family members someday that wouldn’t have remembered me for squat but now will remember me for being the “guy who resigned and if not for him we would be mormons now”.

Also I see good coming with the bad as this has been a catalyst for my married children as they see this chasm happen to their parents and ponder the reason for it. They see no change in me (still serve the family for a plethora of things) yet they see their mother reject me for not being a member and not following the external rules of church, and they see her as a great and caring mother which she is. They are forced to see the uncomfortable contradiction. In fact I think it is appropriate of me to ask my married kids this question. “Would you leave your spouse if they left the church only, and not you?”
No answer required. Just to get them thinking.

Back to the heroes thing. I look to folks like Tal Bachman, Richard Packham, Jeff Ricks, Sandra Tanner , Eric K. and a long list of folks who are just humans with no supernatural powers that are just doing the right and courageous thing by “acting” and trying to kill that despicable insidious monster called “LACK OF INFORMED CONSENT”. Yeah, those are my heroes and I will be forever grateful for them. So if that’s “hero worship” so be it. I know of no “better” heroes.

Dark said: "If I were to just “act the part” and keep my mouth shut then I had to ask myself “who breaks the chain?” and if not me, why not me?"

Exactly. I can't see myself staying in for years if I didn't believe but most especially teaching it to children. I would not thank my parents for doing that to me. As I've told them, if the beliefs they passed on (not necessarily religious ones) were error-prone or not what I would have wished, I can accept that they did it with good intent. To learn that they knew a religious belief, in particular, was questionable and yet they deliberately enmeshed me in a false system would have been shocking to me and hard to take and forgive.

I do understand that demanding religions that incorporate one's culture and heritage are exceptionally difficult to analyze, process, evaluate for truth, goodness and value, and at some point choose to leave. Because of that it's hard, for me at least, to be too judgemental about people who choose to stay in. But, what are you teaching the kids. That is the big question that would likely override a lot of reasons a person could think of to just stay put and keep mum. A parent's choices on their kids' behalf do indeed affect their children's lives and their children's and so on. I would definitely want to think about the legacy I was leaving in that regard.

To be the one who left, as Dark mentions, due to personal conscience after finding out facts, rather than the one who stayed even knowing there were serious problems and choosing to teach it to the kids anyway, is how I would like to be viewed by future generations. (It's all theoretical for me, single with no kids, but I can imagine it by thinking of my nieces and nephews).

Yeah, it's harsh in the extreme. But how you play the cards you're dealt in life says a lot about you.

Ha, Stray Mutt. Took me a minute to get it.

But hey. A person could do worse than live in Canada. Glorious late summer sunshine as we speak. And a lot of other good stuff. :)

Spent my mission there. Nice place to live except for that winter thing.

"If I remember correctly Tal recently stated that his family hardly remembers their membership as anything other than a faint memory, a past memory that no longer has relevance to their current lives."

That's nice. No, really. That's grand for Tal and his family, but not everyone is the same.

Your right. Everyones situations are far from cookie cutter and what works for some is not even possible for others. I probably needed to be brought down a notch. I was being a little self righteous myself.

Tal is cool and all but I've been out longer than Tal has been alive. My family is still in but I don't care. We no longer talk about religion. Or at least they don't when I'm around.

When I discovered mormonism wasn't true, I celebrated. My biggest concern for years had been if my husband/ex was going to be damned (which is what they told me 27 years ago). Once I figured it out, then his life made sense and I could breathe easy. Not like the journey there wasn't pure hell.

I was very angry when I thought I had wasted my life marrying him--but I no longer feel that way.

My daughter is still in it--I have a very few family members in it. I give her what support I can BECAUSE I have to allow her to make the "same" journey I did.

I have come to a lot of peace over my life--the one thing I DO SPEAK OUT ABOUT is I remind my religious family/friends that I am a heathen and a sinner--and please allow me to be so as I got so weary of being the good girl.