The bishop who claims to be my bishop knew I had questions about the church and thought I was being prideful and stubborn to actually think instead of just praying my doubts away. So he asked...

"Is it worth losing your family for?"

This has bugged me enormously for months, not just because of the mafia-like quality of the threat but because of something more fundamental. What is the value of integrity? How much is my soul worth that I'd sacrifice myself for what I know is a lie? At what point would I knowingly raise my children to live a lie? How can someone not CARE that they are being lied to - how does it happen that fear outweighs disgust? I'm not talking about those of us who maintain a level of activity to keep marriages together with TBM, despite our disbelief. That is understandable. Regrettable that it's necessary but understandable. I'm talking about actually, mentally pushing aside your thoughts, your reasoning, your integrity because you've been made to believe that not doing so would cause you to lose your family forever. I've got a couple of OK responses if I'm ever asked this again but neither really answer it well.

How would you answer this question if someone asked it to you? "Is it worth losing your family for?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 01:48AM by CA girl.

You could always say yes and see what he says to that...lol

saying "Yes, and I'm absolutely appalled that you lack the integrity to see that."

I would say, "How exactly will I be losing my family? Are you going to tell dh to divorce me? IF you are talking about eternity its all good, 'cause I (either don't believe, or believe I will be anyway). You are a pompous ass."

Thats what I'd say.

One answer: So the church is essentially holding my family hostage for a monetary ransom (tithing) and the tangible value--in terms of my personal time--that can be placed on the demands one or more callings and attending church services make upon my personhood.

That, sir--addressed to the bishop--is the true price you are asking in what I regard as bullying fashion...

And I regard your actions in not addressing my doubts as particularly cowardly, something you may find offensive, but then it's not my fault the church is a fraud.

I agree. I brought up the fact that I thought it was awful the church had the attitude "Give me ten percent of your money or I'll take your family away forever" and he said in the most sneering tone you can imagine "Why is it all about MONEY with you???" His income is about what our family's is but he acted like he thought I was penny-pinching white trash. But the spite and venom in his voice shocked me into giving him a good reply.

I love the last sentence of your post. I'm definitely memorizing that for future use - which hopefully I'll never need. :)

Bish, the concept of "Family", as far as I'm concerned, is just a myth. People who are caught up in it, lose sight of the fact that their husbands/wives, their children are just human beings--no more, no less. They have their own minds, their own lives. They grow up, they grow old--they evolve; they move on. If my family members love me, want to stay close to me, they will. If they don't, they won't. It's all about choice. Simple as that.

That said, I am a mother who has tried to live in such a way that my children will always know that I love and respect them, that they'll always be able to feel comfortable around me. Can't do that if the basis of our relationship is built upon lies, now can I? I don't judge my children for their choices, and I certainly don't insist on perfection, whatever that is. As for eternity, in the immortal words of Melvin Udall, "Go sell crazy somewhere else."

Clear enough? Thanks so much for your concern. Buh-bye. *shuts door*

Sicce

Bishop x, the only way I would lose my family is if my family shunned me. Are you telling me that you and the LDS church are so anti-family that you would deliberately break up my family by advising them to shun me? Then again, if my families love for me is so shallow they would would try to use that love to manipulate me or withhold that love, well, it's better that I find out now then wait to find out when I really need to rely on them.

"Bishop,is being a member of a man-made religious cult, and throwing your whole life away, worth it?"

It assumes that you'll lose your family if you don't knuckle under to church dictates. That a silly proposition because church assumptions and doctrine are all bogus.


Reminds me of my mother quoting D&C and BofM to convince me that I should go back to church. That's like citing the Man in the Moon as an expert authority.

There came a time when my older brother, the bully, couldn't scare me with boogie man stories. Those kinds of threats assume that you naively accept all kinds of foolishness. Once you spit in the eye of a bully, he's done for. That's why mormons cling to the false assumption that exmos still believe in disappearing plates and threatening angels with flaming swords.

Always turn the tables on a prick like that. I would say, "How do you justify this attempt to coerce me into lying to my family? If there is a "true" religion, staying in this one will likely take me to hell. How is that okay?"

He's a douche. Not worthy of your time.

HH =)

...expects investigators to risk losing their families to join the church. The LDS church only cares about family bonds when it suits their purposes.

Well said Stray Mutt. The morg always turns things around trying to show that you're the one that's in the wrong.
Will they ever look in at themselves and see that their teachings are wrong. No, of course not.
My family was put out when I joined (they never did join), I saw less of them because I was kept busy in the morg. I was never advised to spend more time with my family. The morg was happy for me to be away from them then. Stupid, stupid cult

Excellent Stray Mutt. I am one grandma who will not be attending my grandson's wedding (in the temple, if he chooses) due to the hatred of us nonmormons by the Mormon authorities. According to them....other families mean nothing to that CULT!!

What I have reasoned for myself is that any God who doesn't value my honest effort to answer these big questions about life isn't deserving of my worship. If all God wants from me - or humans in general - is complete and unyielding belief and blind obediance (ala MMM) then I will accept my fate and end up in hell. I believe that if God does exist, then God would recognize and appreciate my attempts to use the God-given faculties of thought and consideration that has brought my this far on my journey through life. To think that those who supported the likes of Prop 8 and a bunch of other Mormon crap (or other religious crap done in God's name) that has been perpetrated and supported throughout times past and present have a leg up in God's view simply because they claimed to believe is crap in my viewpoint.

Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vo1. 1, pp. 188-189

during the same interview - except his quote was from Hinckley and specifically concerned the First Vision. I immediately came back with half a dozen facts like - there were no revivals near Palmyra in 1820, Lucy Mack Smith never mentioned the First Vision in her biography of her son, the D&C section that talks about important things that happened in the church before the church was organized doesn't mention the first vision, Joseph and his family members all joined another church in 1828, there are no records of the first vision from anyone before 1832, faithful Mormon, anti-Mormon, journals, newspapers NOTHING. Oh, and how the first vision account written by Joseph Smith in his own handwriting contradicts the account taught in the church today but is nearly identical to accounts in the newspaper by other people in the Palmyra area during those years.

The look of shock on the bishop's face was priceless. It was very clear he did not know who he was dealing with. He thought I was some naughty, ignorant housewife he could bully, not realizing I had a college degree and had a career in journalism - still freelance in fact - and had the IQ and the lack of respect for him to outsmart him. It still makes me smile to think about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 11:10AM by CA girl.

Look at how you are treating one of the people the Savior gave you responsibility to care for. Look how you are treating someone in the Savior's name while claiming to speak for him. Do you think you can show such disrespect for him, for his priesthood and everything he stood for by abusing one of his children like this and believe that he will allow you to keep YOUR family forever? I think you better hope like hell I'm right about the church not being true. Because if you are right, by your own standards and the teaching of your own church, the Savior is going to kick your ASS when he returns.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 11:29AM by CA girl.

Good one CA girl... like that a lot.

She said he wanted desperately to make her cry, poor guy didn't succeed.

Well anyway, she told him that she had been raised differently (she's a convert), and that she never ever believed that you had to be a mormon to have your family with you in the next life.

That the bishop was trying to make me feel so worthless and stupid I'd crawl back and beg him to let me kiss his ... I've never been talked to like that by ANYONE in my life and it totally scared me. But it didn't make me cry because he can't make me feel worthless - he can only prove he's the worthless one.

and then they don't make sense because I'm commenting on things farther down the thread. I think I need a new mouse because it's not clicking on reply when I think it has. Ugh



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2010 11:39AM by CA girl.

Since D&C 132 is still scripture, unless he outlives his wife and is sealed to another woman he will not have his eternal family in the Celestial Kingdom either.

That his only chance according to DC 132 and 138 is that he'll have to have someone sealed to him by proxy after his death.

I also pointed this out to my mother, and my sister, and to my RM brother when they asked me whether I was willing to lose my eternal family

Regardless that the current definition is for celestial marriage, the scripture says that you must do this in order to be with God in the highest kingdom. Celestial marriage has always been a codeword for polygamy, and polygamy is still a correct teaching and will return in the millenium.

This guy is meddling in your business, so why talk to him at all? But if you do, one possible answer would be:

"Wow, that almost sounds like a threat. Are you telling me that I should choose the course of least resistance and give in to peer and family pressure instead of doing instead of living an honest life?"


But his question actually IS an important one for you to consider (even though I don't think you should discuss it with him because it's none of his damn business).

Another possible answer:

"Interesting question, bishop. I wonder why leaving the Mormon church, which is not only demonstrably false but frankly rediculous, would cause me to lose my family. I wonder WHY I might need to chose between living an normal or honest life or keeping my family. Could you please tell my WHY I would be rejected by my family and my community for believing differently than they do? Could you please tell my why nobody in that community is willing to look at the facts and would rather reject ME?"

Some people do live a lie for at least a time to keep their family and lead them out slowly, but I think that once it gets to the point where threats of divorce are being made (I don't mean the bishop, I mean your spouse, just to clarify), I think you have to stand your ground. Because then it become an issue of emotional control and sometimes even manipulation and abuse.

When somebody tells you have to suppress your own thoughts and feelings to maintain a relationship with them, at that point, you become a prop in their life rather than a person and it's not worth it anymore.


That bishop sounds like a jerk. Don't let him push your buttons. He has no place in your life.

I don't want to talk to him - he is a jerk. But not being able to articulate to myself why that one comment stood out from his tirade and bothered me so much is what's bothering me the most. Thanks for your insights - it's helping me pull my thoughts together. At some point, you quit being in a relationship and start becoming the actor in a drama. Just playing a role with a script for someone who doesn't know who you are and doesn't care. They only care about the performance you give. That's when it's time to draw the line.

I would say this:

Well bishop, by asking that question you are assuming some very critical points that should be addressed before I answer your question.

First, you are assuming that I accept the church and all it stands for as truth.

Second, you are assuming that by questioning the church or even leaving the church I will automatically lose my family.

Third, and this is most important of all, you are assuming that the church is in fact all it claims to be.

So to answer your question, let me first set the record straight on these points. I do not accept the church and all it stands for therefore it doesn't matter to me in the least what the church says about my family. I do not expect to automatically lose my family by leaving the church, you see, my family loves me and I love them and making a decision based on facts will not cause them to stop loving me no matter what that decision is because they respect my intelligence and my decisions. And last, I have seen numerous facts and cold hard evidence that prove this church is not even close to what it claims to be. So my answer is no it is not worth losing my family for, however, by leaving this church I will be saving my family not losing them so in my opinion this is the only decision I can make.

I'd laugh in his face.
"Bishop, since when has the 'church' been a 'family' for me??? I was shunned by the "TSCC" because I didn't have the 'right' kind of Mormon family. Even though my husband was BIC and we were married in the temple it didn't mean squash. We didn't pay enough tithing and my husband never renewed his TR after we were married. That made us slightly above inactives, jack mormons and gentiles in the ward.
And now that I am divorced (because of a non supportive husband and other important issues) I am not considered a 'good' mormon either. I am to be put on probation for a year everytime I move into a new ward (even with a current TR) because I am a divorced woman. The probation means I cannot have a 'job' or give 'talks' in the church until I've been in the new ward for a year. I cannot teach the youth, be in the counslerships of the RS, YWs or teach SS. And you think I'm losing a family??? What did I have???? You and your belief in the TSCC is a joke.

Catholic and Fundy Christians: "Is it worth risking the possiblity of your family burning in hell for eternity???"

Hindu: "Is it worth risking your family being reincarnated as cockroaches???"

Norse: "Is it worth risking your family floating endlessly down a river of knives while simultaneously being eaten by a giant worm???"

Buddhist: "Is it worth risking your family NOT reaching Nirvana???"

The list goes on and on...

Most religions use fear to control people. Your bishops' condescending, ignorant question has been asked by practisioners of all kinds of religion, ever since religion was conceived. Tell him he'd better start praying to Thor so he can help his family avoid the worm.

Ihidmyself Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Catholic and Fundy Christians: "Is it worth
> risking the possiblity of your family burning in
> hell for eternity???" i am Catholic and have NEVER heard this..... maybe its just me but... i dont beleive that they teach that!!
>
> Hindu: "Is it worth risking your family being
> reincarnated as cockroaches???"
>
> Norse: "Is it worth risking your family floating
> endlessly down a river of knives while
> simultaneously being eaten by a giant worm???"
>
> Buddhist: "Is it worth risking your family NOT
> reaching Nirvana???"
>
> The list goes on and on...
>
> Most religions use fear to control people. Your
> bishops' condescending, ignorant question has
> been asked by practisioners of all kinds of
> religion, ever since religion was conceived. Tell
> him he'd better start praying to Thor so he can
> help his family avoid the worm.

exactly what they teach. What is purgatory? Isn't that a Catholic term for those who are not blessed by a Catholic priest sometime before they die?

You have a remarkable lack of knowledge about other philosophies and religions.

For knowing the truth, I would always be willing to lose the family.

CA girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The bishop who claims to be my bishop knew I had
> questions about the church and thought I was being
> prideful and stubborn to actually think instead of
> just praying my doubts away. So he asked...
>
> "Is it worth losing your family for?"
>
>
>
> How would you answer this question if someone
> asked it to you? "Is it worth losing your family
> for?"

Answer...from a thinking secularist...is "YES" if keeping your family means keeping AND supporting a lie.."

To the bishop: Hmmm. I wonder what Jesus would answer? Oh, that's right, you wouldn't know. ;-)

And:
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Besides, how can a lie give you the promise of eternal families?

Nice little family you've got there.

It would be a shame if something were to happen to it.

"YOU_ARE_THREATENING_ME!"

"God loves me, and I know that He would never take my family away from me."

"No man can tell God what to do."

"This is not God's church."

Then I walked out the door forever.

Yeah, I have often thought of what I coulda-shoulda said, but I had to shoot quickly, from the hip, and I do think I got my point across.

Ca Girl, when you said, "Give me ten percent of your money or I'll take your family away forever"--you described extortion!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2010 05:13AM by forestpal.

"The humanitarian, family and Christlike values of this world as opposed to your cult are exposed by that very question.

Now run away and play your silly games somewhere else little man"

Briggy

WHO says that I will "lose my family?" -- YOU GUYS are the ones saying it! It's you're unique form of MORMON EXTORTION.

Virtually every other religion ASSUMES that we will ALL be with our loved-ones in the hereafter if we are basiclly good humans!

YOU are the religion with the MEAN GOD who breakes up families in the hereafter!

No one else makes that threat (that I know of now) -- only YOU!

Even people from widely different culturs who've claimed to have Near Death Experiences say that they were reunited with loved ones

Yes, anon, the Mormons are the only ones who talk that way. We do feel we will be with our loved ones in the afterlife. Mormons make it seem only their religion allows this. Mormons are liars.

Where is the evidence that happens?

And lose to what?
Why would they be lost anyhow? I know right where they are! :-)
Lost to me in an imaginary after life? Where is the evidence?

I would be so ticked off if a Bishop said that to me. I would say "Lose my family??? Oh that can't be. This is a family forever church....a family friendly church? Are you telling me the LDS Church is no longer a family friendly church? He is a jerk!!! Tell him to go crawl in a crevice with a rattlesnake.

"Bishop, You're confusing pride and arrogance with faith. Just because you continue to believe in fairy tales/folklore does not mean I need to choose the same. Have a good day!" :)

"$%#% YOU." or, It reminds me of the scene in Labyrinth when the girl realizes and says "you have no power over me". Mabye something like that would be better.

My fictional reply:

"Gee, Bishop Asshat, isn't that what you asked me to do when I converted? You wanted me to get married in the temple. I come from a never-mormon family, you know that, right? So, by converting to mormonism and expecting me to marry in the temple, you would be asking me, in fact, to give up my family! You really think my own dear mother would be speaking to me after I couldn't allow her to attend my wedding? I gave up my family to become a mormon. By leaving the church, I get to have my family BACK!"