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Posted by: FetalPosition ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 01:34AM

Boyd K. Packer!!! Come on down. I am a full believing Mormon. But that BKP talk just killed me. Against everything I believe in. I am so tempted to just trash the whole thing and drink some red wine.

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Posted by: CA girl ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 01:49AM

There is a tip of the iceberg that wakes people up. Yours is Boyd K. Packer - mine was the First Vision stuff. The whole truth about Mormonism is bigger than you can possibly imagine right now. Good for you for having the courage of your convictions - enjoy that wine.

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Posted by: What is Real ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 01:59AM

I think you will see another backlash after his ridiculous comments. All that money spent on the PR spin down the drain. I am sure you are not alone.

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Posted by: sisterexmo ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 04:27PM

They need to know that the Church and the leaders that hold to such bigotry and intollerance are %?!#* wrong.

They need to know they need to drop out of that stinking religion instead of Life.

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Posted by: Misfit ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 08:52AM

Welcome to the club! You are not alone. The award for killing my testimony goes to the Book of Mormon. I tried to read it as a historical document in the context of a hebrew family migrating to pre-columbian America. It just didn't work.

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Posted by: Steven ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 09:00AM

the church had been hiding a dark underbelly of dispictable facts like Joseph Smith having at least 30+ wives, including a 14 year old and 11 women who were already married - well I went and had a glass of red wine too (so to speak). All I KNOW is that Jesus is not a mormon.

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Posted by: anon for this ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 09:40AM

My husbands turbo TBM parents killed it for me when they wrote of my brother in law. Got him fired from his job and shunned him for his being gay. He was one of those who did not act on it. He followed the church to a "T" and did all the Mo asked. He was born the way he was. My husbands parents dis-owned him and aksed him to leaved. My bil was going to take his life but instead left Mo valley and went on to life a good life on his terms and never came back to see his family. My husbands parents have since passed away and never saw him again. They must have been be so proud of themselves. I try to keep in touch and one day hope to apologize in person for what the "Packers" of the church did to him.
I hate the Cult!

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Posted by: brigantia ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 09:59AM

is not for nothing. Just like Hitler, when he was losing, he continued his rousing speeches to appease the masses.

He's in trouble and hoping a few will stand by him. The rantings of a desperate man I think.

Briggy

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Posted by: JoD3:360 ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 10:27AM

I agree BKP is a doosh...always has been.

I think that last year watching Elder Holland waving a fake copy of Hyrums Book of Mormon over the pulpit was a sure sign that it was okay to let go. He was lying and he was calling me a sinner for not believing him. We know it was a fake because earlier the Desnews showed the real book being donated to the church.

But the award for killing my test monkey goes to the Journal of Discourses. Once you sit down and read these mens words, read the proclamations from the church leaders of the time calling these words good and essential, and watching the church of today call them wrong and only of historical interest is all you need to know that no matter what your testimony of anything is, the early leadership of the church were wrong, uninspired, and clearly not speaking for God. Not only are the teachings of these men wrong, but in many cases they are just plain evil and blasphemous.

Not only does discovering the truth about the Book of Abraham and the real truth about Polygamy, the Umpteenth Vision, and Blood Atonement showed me that the church was not what it says that it is, but reading the words of the prophets shows that they are not who they say they are.

Someone blibndfold that test monkey and give it a cigarette- the church is taking aim, and after they shoot they will blame its owners' weakness/sin for it dying.

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Posted by: sonoflds ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 03:53PM

The Journal of Discourse should kill everyone's testimony. You don't need any "anti", their own words damn them.

What really did it to me was when I was a Stake President and had a few occasions to visit with Thomas S. Monson when he was in the Q of the 12. In short, one of the most heartless men I have ever had the displeasure to meet.

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Posted by: Ms. ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 05:49PM

...to exmo. That's very interesting (and even inspirational). Is your story on here somewhere?

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Posted by: badseed ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 10:36AM

welcome-

as others have said, you'll soon find— if you take the time to look deeper— that there are many more troubling issues within Mo-ism. Allowing yourself permission to critically think about the religion is hard to do if you've been raised in the faith but it's amazing what you'll find once you do.

For me the first issue was the history, then doctrine and finally current teachings on homosexuality etc.

My top testimony killers:

-Joseph Smith's Polygamy/Polyandry
-The Book of Abraham
-BoM issues
-Joseph Smith's folk magic prior to translation of BoM
-Church wide Polygamy

etc...

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Posted by: Yochanan E ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 12:35PM

I am sorry, you guys are a bunch of hateful and lazy sinners who are looking for excuses to break commandments and practice immorality. As the Apostles Paul said to the Romans, so I say unto you:

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to ccorruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

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Posted by: confused ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 12:49PM

“... who, in his right mind, could, for one moment, suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the whole Bible has escaped pollution so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original.”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, “The Bible and Tradition, without Further Revelation, an insufficient Guide,” Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon – No. 3, December 1, 1850, p. 47
---------------------

“Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, see pp. 45-46

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Posted by: songs to get stoned with ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 01:01PM

"I am sorry, you guys are a bunch of hateful and lazy sinners who are looking for excuses to break commandments and practice immorality."

song of solomon
3:1 By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not.

5:16 His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

6:3 I am my beloved's, and my beloved is mine: he feedeth among the lilies.

Its in the bible! With contradictions like this in "sacred" pages its no wonder people are condemning their own children in the name of an insane god.

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Posted by: Ms. ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 05:51PM


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Posted by: fearguiltpromise ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 01:13PM

Wow, Yochanan E

Paul's words describe the mormon church perfectly. Especially v.25 Thanks for helping us out here!

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 12:50PM

Yoch, you made me laugh out loud.

I have had a day or two to think about this situation with BKP and his hateful talk.

This may be a shock to others, but it got me riled up for a little while and then I thought about it.

I will not jump through the church's hoops to resign. I am not a mormon. I choose to not be one.

I will not allow Packer to have any impact on my life any longer whatsoever. As I told an ex-wife of a gay some years ago when she chose to go to her husband's excommunication (he didn't go), they don't give a sh*t. I will not allow pieces of sh*t like Packer to have an influence in our lives any longer. It has been 27 years and nothing has changed. They'll never change. The important thing is to get the message to the gays in the church, if they will ever listen. The church will not change its stance. They'll pretend.

I'm not going to waste any more time or emotion on people like Packer or any of them.

Somehow, some way I will rescue my daughter from the lds church, but she is my ONLY focus now as far as the church is concerned. I'm done with them.

Like I said, I do feel recovered--like get her done said. I don't need to keep re-visiting their insanity. They will NOT influence my life ever again.

I'll still be around reading and sometimes posting. I'm not going to get on here and say, "I'm leaving." I'll always be lurking and sometimes posting--it is always really interesting to read here.

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Posted by: Sorcha ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 01:14PM

Learning the truth about the Joseph Smith Papyrii, the supposed source for the Book of Abraham, was the killing shock for me. That was a year and a half ago.

I was always uncomfortable with the Morg's hatred for gays (and people of color and women for that matter) and the insistance that gays could change their orientation "if they really wanted to," and I suppose a campaign in AZ similar to Prop 8 (it was called the Marriage Amendment here) triggered my serious investigation.

Since I have always believed that "God don't make no junk" (and that God made ALL of us perfect just as we ARE), I just couldn't understand--or stand--the intolerance and the hatred spewed by supporters of that Amendment.

I'm a convert, was baptized as an adult in 2002, started having problems with doctrine in 2005 when I was a Beehive teacher and had to teach that stupid lesson to 13-year-olds that said nothing must get in the way of a young woman's marrying a "worthy" young man. [puke]

Anyway, I'm still "under cover" to my local community about my falling away, though DH knows I'm no longer a believer and I have been inactive ever since my BoA discovery.

Whew. Didn't intend to go into all that, but man, I've been "lurking" here for some time and it feels good to say it. Thank you all.

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Posted by: Simone Stigmata ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 01:49PM

For me, the BoA was one of the first things that I couldn't reconcile. The more I have studied, the more I have found. It started as a fraud, and continues deluding people to this very day. Glad to see your eyes have been opened.

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Posted by: oddcouplet ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 01:41PM


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Posted by: amos ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 02:36PM

The straw that broke the camel's back...

...I was reeling under the weight of two years of unrelenting heavy depression from TWENTY years of a snowballing guilt complex that only got worse as I learned "line-upon-line" the "meat" of the "gospel".

I was, literally, on the brink of suicide.

Then it hit me as I was reading the Book of Mormon for the 25th+ time (I was a chapter-a-day full-believing reader until the very day I let go), that calling the church of the devil a "whore" is an insult to whores. NOT KIDDING.

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Posted by: FreeAtLast ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 02:46PM

From a post I did earlier this year:

"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." -- Thomas Paine, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America, intellectual, philosopher, and writer.

One of the best ways of cracking open Mormons' 'faith' is to reveal to them the fact that Joseph Smith (JS) was a liar, manipulator, adulterer and pedophile.

The LDS Church's section summary for D&C 132, the 'revelation' on polygamy written (down) by JS just over 166 years ago, says:

"Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

According to LDS scripture, two key polygamy "principles" were:

i. A Mormon priesthood holder could desire and marry only virgins who were "vowed to no other man" (i.e., not betrothed to a fiancée, or married).
ii. The first wife (Emma, in JS' case) had to give her consent to the plural marriage.

The scripture in question was D&C 132:61:

"And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61)

In the case of 11 women that 'prophet' and Mormon Church president Joseph Smith made his plural wives, they were already vowed to their husband, and as married women, certainly not virgins (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/).

"...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else." The 11 women belonged to their husband.

JS committed adultery at least 11 times (12, actually, when you include his extra-marital affair with teenager Fanny Alger, servant girl in the Smith home; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

The LDS Church has a partial list of the married women, single women, and teenage girls that JS made his plural wives on the church's genealogy website at http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp

Enter Smith's first and last name, birth year (1805) and birth place (Vermont, United States). Click on Search. Then click on the underlined Joseph Smith (Ancestral File 1). Scroll down to see the partial list of his plural wives. Note when he (at age 37) married Helen Mar Kimball (May 1843) and her age by clicking on her name (she was just 14).

JS' marriage to Fanny Alger can be viewed on the church's FamilySearch.org website by entering her first and last name, marriage year to JS (1835) and selecting "United States" and "Ohio" from the drop-down menus, and clicking on Search, then continuing from there.

Why did Joseph Smith make married women his plural wives - committing adultery in the process - when the Lord forbade it, and did so not just once or twice, but 11 times? Why wasn't he excommunicated for adultery?

The Mormon Church and LDS 'prophets' have taught for generations that adultery is a 'sin' next to murder and any church member who has committed adultery does not have the Holy Ghost with him/her and cannot receive revelation from God.

JS disobeyed the 'revealed' word of God (directly to him, no less) every time he desired, pursued and married a married Mormon woman. In the case of at least one of them, Sylvia Lyon (married to Windsor Lyon), JS fathered her daughter:

“On January 27, 1844 her [Sylvia’s] only surviving child, Philofreen, also died. At this time, Sylvia was eight months pregnant with her fourth child, Josephine Rosetta Lyon. Josephine later wrote, “Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”. (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/08-SylviaSessionsLyon.htm)

In May 1843, JS made a 14-year-old, two 17-year-olds and a 19-year-old his plural wives. The 14-year-old, Helen Mar Kimball, was his youngest-yet plural wife, as the genealogy data on the list of JS' plural wives on FamilySearch.org shows.

One wonders why, of all the single women in Nauvoo who were in their 20s and 30s, JS pursued and married teenage girls young enough to be his daughters and other men's wives.

On July 12, 1843, just two months after JS married the teenage girls mentioned above, he wrote down a 'divine' death threat ("threat of destruction") directed at his first and only legal wife, Emma (who was Relief Society president) if she didn't accept his plural wives, remain with him, "cleave unto" him, and accept polygamy. D&C 132:52 and 54:

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those [plural wives] that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure [virgins] before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law [polygamy].

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/52#54)

How extraordinarily convenient for JS that the Lord was willing to turn a blind eye to his adultery (no rebuke, no revelation that he should be excommunicated), and back him up in his practice of polygamy by threatening to kill (destroy) Emma if she didn't get on JS' polygamy 'wagon' pronto!

According to the 'revelation' on polygamy that JS wrote down on July 12, 1843, the reason for plural marriage was to get virgins pregnant so that they would bear children, thereby increasing God’s glory:

“But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/63#63)

In JS' day, the only way for Mormon women and teenage girls to "bear the souls of men" was to become pregnant through sexual intercourse (human artificial insemination wasn't developed until the 1940s).

Gaining access to females who could "multiply and replenish the earth" was important to JS. In the case of 16-year-old Lucy Walker, whose mother died after the Walker family converted to Mormonism and moved to Nauvoo in the spring of 1841, he separated the teenage girl from her father (by sending him away on a 2-year mission to the Eastern United States) and her surviving siblings (her sister, Lydia, had died only months before of “brain fever”) by placing her siblings with families in Nauvoo and ‘inviting’ the unsuspecting girl to live in the home of ‘the Prophet’ (himself).

“While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me...He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’...He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother...Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”

“Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.”’ (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm)

Not informing Emma of his latest plural marriage and first obtaining Emma’s consent was a violation of the Lord’s commandment to JS: “…if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent...for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.”

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/61#61).

Secretly marrying Lucy Walker was not the first time that JS did not obtain Emma’s consent (she discovered her husband and teenage servant girl Fanny Alger having sex in the barn and complained to Mormon Apostle Oliver Cowdery, Joseph’s second cousin and BoM scribe, about her husband’s extra-marital affair; Fanny was sent away by Emma because the teenage girl was “was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet”, in other words, Fanny’s swelling womb; ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).

2. In the BoM, in Jacob 2:24, it says:

"Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jacob/2/24#24)

However, in the 'revelation' on polygamy that Joseph Smith wrote down on July 12, 1843, it says (in verse 1):

"Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines"
(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132)

How is it that in the BoM, the Lord, who according to scripture is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, condemned as "abominable" the practice of David and Solomon of having wives and concubines, but then contradicted himself in the 'revelation' on polygamy to JS by saying he "justified" (i.e., approved of) the practice?

Answer: When JS WROTE the BoM prior to its publication in 1830, he had only one wife: Emma. But in July 1843, when he wrote down the 'revelation' on polygamy that supposedly came from 'the Lord' (into his mind), he had several plural wives (ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/). In July 1843, Joseph Smith had forgotten what he wrote about David and Solomon and their practice of having wives and concubines 13+ years earlier.

3. Quote in LDS Apostle Russell Nelson's article, "A Treasured Testament", in the July 1993 Ensign (the article is online at www.lds.org; use the Search function to find it):

"Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

Why hasn't the LDS Church taught members and potential converts about Smith's 'magical'-rock-and-hat BoM 'translation' technique? The answer is obvious: Who would remain a member and who would join if they knew the truth?!

Why were the gold plates even needed, since Joseph Smith's 'peep' stone clearly did the job as far as 'translating' the BoM is concerned?! The huge problem is that it says in the BoM (and LDS 'prophets' have taught for generations) that 'the Lord' commanded BoM 'prophets' to keep an account of what was going on during their lives as well as teachings and doctrines.

But according to the quote in Nelson's article, there was no gold plate in JS' hat, only the 'magical' rock ('seer' stone) that mysteriously emitted "something resembling parchment" upon which one character at a time would appear. There are 1,150,219 characters in the BoM, which means that it took JS nearly a year (at eight hours per day) of putting his face in his hat and calling out the characters to his scribe to 'translate' the BoM. Why don't church pictures show him doing so?

4. A Seer Stone and a Hat - "Translating" the Book of Mormon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPnu0bx3oWg

5. For generations, a fundamental Book of Mormon (BoM) 'truth' was the following: "Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the Record of the People of Nephi; and also of the Lamanites; written to the Lamanites, which are a remnant of the House of Israel;" (ref. http://www.inephi.com/1.htm).

However, in light of DNA evidence of the past 20 years that has consistently shown that the ancestors of Native Americans came from northeast Asia and not from ancient Israel/Judea, as described in the BoM, the LDS Church has officially abandoned its 'truth' - taught to millions of church members and potential converts since JS' day - that American Indians are Jewish in origin (via Laman and Lemuel, who came from Jerusalem with Lehi, Sariah, Laman, Lemuel, and other Jewish family members).

Here is what the Introduction of 19th- to 20th-century editions of the BoM, including the 1981 edition that many Latter-day Saints living today used in church and at home, said (emphasis in capital letters is mine):

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the PRINCIPAL ancestors of the American Indians."

Here is what JS wrote in March 1842 in a letter to John Wentworth, editor and proprietor of the Chicago Democrat newspaper:

"In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country."

(ref. http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c26876e6ffe0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD)

Here is what the LDS Church is now saying (emphasis in capital letters is mine):

"The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel.

The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are AMONG the ancestors of the American Indians."

(ref. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/introduction)

"...among the ancestors of the American Indians" clearly implies that there were other ancient people(s) who were also the ancestors of Native Americans, which is, of course, exactly what scientists concluded (no evidence exists to support the Mormon idea of Jewish ancestry of American Indians).

The HUGE problem for the LDS Church is that for the BoM to be true, the ancestors of Native Americans have to be Jewish/come from ancient Israel/Jerusaleum, as described in the BoM."

The chief problem with Mormonism is that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Science has proven that the 'keystone' of the LDS religion, the Book of Mormon, is a work of fiction (see the links below for details). Mormonism founder Joseph Smith, Jr. repeatedly failed to relate and even write a reasonably consistent version of his so-called 'First Vision' experience (see the link below). JS kept getting his age, the place, what he saw, and other major elements of the 'First Vision' wrong. Rational people don’t believe a ‘witness’ who tells versions of their ‘true’ story that conflict with versions previously told by the individual. People who won’t use their critical thinking and scrutinize what they’ve been told often do believe ‘charismatic’ types.

According to LDS Church presidents Ezra Benson and Gordon Hinckley in Gen. Conf. talks in Oct. 1986 and Oct. 2002 (online at www.lds.org), Mormonism stands or falls on the BoM being true (historically and in all other respects) and the First Vision having taken place (as per the official church version that has been taught to millions of members and potential converts). The facts are clear: Mormonism falls (the websites linked below provide many of these facts).

All religions, including Mo-ism, are the product of people's imagination (Joseph Smith, in the case of the Mormon religion, with 'spiritual' ideas from other Mormon 'prophets' being layered on during the past 7-8 generations since 1830).

You're not obliged to mentally regurgitate other people's 'spiritual' ideas, what they believe and feel is 'true', and demonstrable nonsense (there's lots of it in cultic Mormonism!).

You have the right to ALWAYS think for yourself and scrutinize what other people, including adult Mormons, have told you is 'true', 'right', 'the will of God', etc. You also have the right to reject all beliefs - religious or otherwise - that are not supported by the facts.

Latter-day Saints fail to understand that truth is independent of what the LDS Church says and what Mormons believe is 'true' when their 'truths' are not supported by solid evidence. Very importantly, their emotions - and emotion-based beliefs - are not an INFALLIBLE guide to the truth.

Here are very good resources that you can study to educate yourself about Mormonism and its history:

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (by former BYU history professor Dr. D. Michael Quinn): http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892

The Changing World of Mormonism: http://www.utlm.org/navonlinebooks.htm

To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

PBS FRONTLINE + American Experience: "The Mormons" (4-hour documentary film aired on PBS in '07 that includes excerpts from interviews with President Gordon Hinckley, Mormon Apostles Boyd Packer and Jeffrey Holland and member of the First Quorum of the Seventy and church historian Marlin Jensen): http://www.pbs.org/mormons/

101 Doubts about Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/101.htm

Contradictions in Mormonism: http://packham.n4m.org/contra.htm

Rethinking Mormonism: http://www.i4m.com/think/

Joseph Smith's Changing First Vision Accounts: http://www.irr.org/mit/first-vision/fvision-accounts.html

Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church (by genetic researcher Dr. Simon Southerton, a former LDS bishop): http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Lost-Tribe-Native-Americans/dp/1560851813

"DNA vs. The Book of Mormon" (ref. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfxSscxh8o)

Book of Mormon Tories (plagarisms in the BoM involving two American history books, one published in 1789 and the other in 1805, that were available to Joseph Smith): http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/magazine/pmm_article_full_text/211

The Lost Book of Abraham (more proof that Joseph Smith lied about his 'translation' ability): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

The 'motherlode' of historical info. about Mormonism (including many quoted official church sources, and their references): http://www.utlm.org/navtopicalindex.htm

Digital photograph of the title page of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon that shows that Joseph Smith was the author and proprietor (he claimed he was the 'translator' of the ancient gold plates): http://www.inephi.com/1.htm

The Untold Story of the Death of Joseph Smith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSo0ate4tM&feature=related

‘Faith-disrupting’ teachings and statements of Mormon ‘prophets’ (after Joseph Smith): http://mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm#apostleadmits

How Mormonism 'programs' people and affects their self-esteem: http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/

40 fears created by LDS 'programming': http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/fears.htm

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Posted by: adoylelb ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 03:11PM

For me, it was the Book of Abraham, followed by the DNA evidence disproving the BoM that did it for me. One way I celebrated my resignation was to get a second set of piercings in my ears, to show that I was not Mormon and that nobody could control me any longer.

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Posted by: happycat ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 03:42PM

I guess these academy awards can be called "Testies". Not saying you're testy... just a pun.

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Posted by: Occam's Meataxe ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 04:29PM

happycat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess these academy awards can be called
> "Testies". Not saying you're testy... just a pun.

Truer than you know. Originally a man "testified" by putting his hands over the twigs and berries praying that they would fall off if he lied.

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Posted by: goldenrule ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 04:30PM

I think BKP's talk will be the tipping point for many TBMs. You are not alone. Enjoy that glass of wine!

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Posted by: Jon ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 04:54PM

My teenage love of beer, and a hypocrite High Councilman, who lectured me for doodling on a drawing of Moroni during semanary, at the same time he was Dorking the Bishop's wife(was discovered by my friend, the Bishops son 2 days after the lecture). He was exed, then let back in 1 year later. Her family was in shambles for years...

It let me know there was no devine guidance there...

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Posted by: Shrek's Sister ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 08:31PM


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Posted by: dr5 ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 08:43PM

Seems to me copies of the Journal of Discourses are getting harder and harder to find. The church seems to be shoving it under the rug, along with McConkie's Mormon Doctrine, revising its own history as fast as it can. Ask a teenage TBM and they don't even know blacks couldn't hold the priesthood. Garments keep shrinking with modern day fashion. So much for BKKKP's "We cannot change; we will not change."

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Posted by: Michaelm ( )
Date: October 05, 2010 09:25PM

Thats why the church does not like the internet.

http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/browse.php?CISOROOT=%2FJournalOfDiscourses3



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2010 09:28PM by michaelm.

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