Because of what I have seen from the LDS leadership and the faithul sheep that make up much of the rank and file, I have been thinking that the protests against Packer's speech have had more impact on the LDS than the Prop 8 protest.

I think the biggest impact of the Prop 8 protests was within the Gay community in Utah. It was the Utah gay community's "stonewall" moment (for those that do not know, google "Stonewall riots"). The Utah gay community found its voice and that it could stand up to the most powerful political and social entity in Utah. The prop 8 protests seem to catch everyone by surprise. I was afraid that some of the mistakes made by the inexperienced SLC police department would lead to an officer panicking and creating an environment were people got hurt or the situation escalated out of control into a riot. That said, the prop 8 protest was only one event and could be dismissed by many as an anomaly or simply ignored. The church and its members could hide behind claims that the LDS was not really that involved or that individuals had the right to vote as they pleased. The prop 8 protests were dismissed or ignored and life went on.

Between the Prop 8 protest and the BKP protest a couple of other smaller things happened, the Prop 8 court ruling celebration march around the temple and a small vigil for a gay suicide victim held at the state capitol.

Then came the protest against Packer's Conference speech. No longer could anyone dismiss protests against the LDS church as an anomaly. No longer could people just ignore the ongoing protests. There seems to have been a realizations that the gays were not going to shut up. The number of people gathered to protest on very short notice sent a clear message that gays were organized, well motivated and have been since the prop 8 protest. On top of all that was the kicker, we were not protesting something in way off California that many dismissed as misdirected anger, we were protesting the words of the second highest ranking leader in the LDS Church. It must have been clear to everyone, Gays in Utah was now clearly willing to take direct aim at the LDS and its highest leaders.

The leadership of the LDS must now know that they can not preach hate against gays in conference with impunity. They must now know that gays are watching their conference and will make offensive remarks against gays a national issue. They must now know that protests are not limited to far off liberal places that can be ignored. They must now know that protests will happen right on their doorstep and those protests are likely to continue.

After the Packer protests, scattered statements have been circulating of open disagreement with BKP's remarks in ward houses through out Utah, even people standing up in sacrament meetings. It is unlikely that the LDS leadership would want to make statements that would fuel this decent. I do not think the LDS would want to continue to build an environment where the Utah faithful begin to feel it safe to speak out against the leadership.

Indeed one measure of support for BKP can be seen at the "WE LOVE YOU - President Boyd K. Packer" face book page where nearly 2 weeks after the comments 33,154 people have agreed to send letters of support to BKP. These numbers seem impressive on the surface, but they equal only about 1/5 the 150,000 letters critical of Packer that the Human Rights Campaign Fund gathered in 9 days. Indeed 33,154 letters is an insignificant portion of the 14 million members the LDS claims to have.

As far as the National press is concerned, it seems clear that the gay rights people are getting their message out better and to a much wider audience than the LDS church has thus far been capable of doing.

What the LDS church must now see is a vocal, strong and strengthening gay activist community in Utah that has the support of gay activists nationally; A local and national Gay activist community that can get its message out faster and farther than the LDS can; A weakening of support for the LDS anti-gay stance withing its own membership even in Utah; An increasing willingness of its membership to be critical of the LDS leadership.

The LDS leadership must also be aware that the gay marriage/gay rights issue is tearing apart other religious denominations.

If it has not reached it yet, the LDS leadership must be very close to a point were they must realize that continued outspoken opposition to gay rights and gay marriage will begin to cause irreparable damage to the LDS church. The LDS leadership, though they may not change their anti-gay beliefs, may soon realize that they can no longer push those beliefs without losing increasing amounts of their power base



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2010 11:41PM by MJ.

Even NPR news picked up the story. They aired the part of Packer's speech that was the most damning.

It would be good to keep the story in the news by reporting the continuing effects: for example, the story about the Professor in the midwest (Michigan), who is also a mormon Bishop busy spreading Packer's mistaken view of homosexuality.
http://gaytheistagenda.lavenderliberal.com/2010/10/15/mormon-eau-clair-professor-sent-anti-gay-e-mail/

Mormon Bishops and Stake Presidents are carrying the Packer message to the wards. A lot of never-mormons have no idea how big the ripples will be as the sheeple amplify Packer's message.

Here's an example of anti-science mormon blogs that are spreading Packer's message: http://mormoninmichigan.blogspot.com/

OnceMore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Mormon Bishops and Stake Presidents are carrying
> the Packer message to the wards. A lot of
> never-mormons have no idea how big the ripples
> will be as the sheeple amplify Packer's message.
>
>

One of the points I made tried to address that. It does not seem as if the the sheeple are rallying to the full extent as they have in the past. It seems there is increasing disagreement and increasingly vocal opposition to the leadership. If they push too hard, they may do more damage that only increases the internal oposition.

Another thing to note, the LDS claims to have 13 million members world wide. The latest research shows that gays, lesbians and bi-sexuals make up about 7.5% of the USA population, which means in the USA alone there are over 23 million gays, lesbians and bi sexual, nearly double what the LDS claims to have world wide. When you look at the LDS membership that are actually active, the LDS sheeple numbers are dwarfed by the gays lesbians and bis.

to out-of-state people?

Some people assume that just because you are from Utah, you are a Mormon bigot.

My husband had a business client who stopped wanting to do business with his company after prop 8, assuming they were all Mormons. Truth is, about 97% of the company IS Mormon.

I wish Utah could disown the Mormons.

I think the gay protests help with that. As news gets out that a bunch of gays are protesting against the LDS bigots, there may be increasing awareness outside of Utah that not everyone here is a sheep. There may also be increasing awareness within the LDS that some people in Utah are no longer willing to take their crap. Hopefully more people will realize they have a voice and can affect how the LDS treats the rest of us and we can get them to back off and start acting as if there are others that deserve to have the agency they claim to value so much.

Prop 8 was far from "home", there was an amount of plausible deniability (i.e. the members did it - we didn't tell them to) and there were a bunch of other religious people on their side.

This time, there were people actually standing up to an apostle and telling him what he said was wrong and asking for an apology. GASP. Questioning the Lord's annointed???? And despite the media trying to spin the protest as a "gay and lesbian" protest, many straight members were upset by Boyd K. Packer's words and the impact they might have on vulnerable youth. Especially just immediately after the well-publicized suicide back east. That was heart-breaking and then BKP goes out and with the same complete insensitivity as the roommate with the webcam, opens his big mouth. There were plenty of straight people who thought the "apostle" made a mistake. I would have been at the protest if I'd been able and not considered it about an issue in the gay community but a human rights issue and being a decent person. But what made it a big deal is that they actually questioned an apostle and demanded he be held accountable.

This time they soiled their own bed, no one to blame but themselves and no one wanted to take their side, except for the real morgbots.

I mentioned "we were not protesting something in way off California that many dismissed as misdirected anger" and "They must now know that protests are not limited to far off liberal places that can be ignored.' This point was sort of buried because I don't think it as central as some of the other points. It could be more important than I give it credit.

I am remiss in specifically stating the straight support. I did talk about internal disagreement within the LDS, but you are right, there are many straight people standing by our side both in and out of TSCC.

It is out understanding that we did have some supporters fly in from San Francisco and the East Coast!

Related to this is, as MJ puts it, “a realization that the gays were not going to shut up.” Light bulb moment, Leadership! --Nor will their families and friends “shut up.” The apostles will continue to be held accountable not only by Mormon gays and their supporters but even by the non-Mormon public (not by everyone, but certainly by a large portion.)

The LDS leadership has eluded accountability successfully for decades. NO MORE! The door has been opened at long, long, last by the gay issue. I hope and expect to see this demand for accountability spread to many other issues as well!

than when they lifted the ban on Blacks being taught and given the priesthood.

They didn't have as big a problem in getting the members to go along with lifting the ban on Blacks even though there were some bigoted, racists Mormons there were no Black members to speak of. [at least in the US]

But Packer's talk hits hard because there are members that have LGBT family members.

I suppose even if they change their doctrine about LGBT's or are forced to because of public opinion they will still blame Heavenly Father just like they did about Blacks."God hasn't revealed why this is so. We don't always know Heavenly Father's reasons, we just are obedient to His commands as revealed through His Prophets."

I expect they will stop making public statements as brash and with such spiteful language as BKP used and stop talking about these things in as visible a way as conference talks.

I do expect them to get the message out via messages to wards, though I am sure gays and their supporters will start jumping on that as well. I also expect that the Morg will continue to spread its hateful message by financing front groups like National Organization for Marriage.

Publicly I expect them to continue to make statements like they did when they got those 150,000 letters, where they made a strong statement against bullying but that they still think gay marriage is wrong and that living as a Mormon would add value to a gay's life. Over time public attitude will shift and I expect the LDS message to shift to a more pro gay stance. The last thing I expect to change would be their stance on marriage.

Over all, it seems clear to me that the LDS leadership's options are how to deal with the gay thing are shrinking. They are finding it increasingly difficult to get their message out. At this point, I do not think they could pull of another Prop 8 sort of mobilization.

I am not at all sure that we need to change the minds of the LDS, at least not right now. Outside of Utah and a couple of other states, there are too few to make that much difference. Right now what we really need is to neutralize their ability to raise money and supply volunteers. It will sort of leave Utah till last but that would always be the case.

I was just listing the things that stood out for me. Things that made this particular situation more remarkable, IMO, than even the Prop 8 stuff. I specifically like that last paragraph you wrote. I think you are right on target.

Sorry, I don't know why this didn't post right under your comment - I think I clicked on the wrong thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2010 01:45AM by CA girl.

I assume you lived in CA during prop 8 and I was living in Utah. Very different perspectives.

Prop 8 was carefully pitched as pro-marriage, not anti-gay, and some people believed that line. And then after the fact the Church started to retreat, supporting equal rights in SLC and a few other things, and letting some GAs hint that homosexuality may well be genetic. The Church came as close as it could to apologizing to the members who were hurt by the campaign, so for many people healing began to occur.

Packer's speech reopened and deepened the wounds. In a single talk he renounced all the bridge-building, the notion that the Church recognized the genetic basis of homosexuality, and the hopeful idea that God approves of his gay and lesbian children. Packer robbed the Church of the ambiguity it was seeking to establish and let homosexuals and their families know that there is no room for them in Mormonism. I know several members who had objected strongly to Prop 8 but chose to forgive the Church and yet who now, after Packer's speech, have lost their faith. This will have major consequences.

That was one form of severe damage. Another was the wave of support that Packer stimulated. The Mormons who are defending him on the internet are doing so in extreme, homophobic, bilious language. Not only does this negate all of the recent advertising, it also confirms the nation's worst suspicions of Mormons and their faith. Packer has summoned up the demons of LDS bigotry and rage for the world to see. The missionary effort, and Romney's presidential aspirations, won't recover this time.

Your fist point boils down to a word: Betrayal. You are right, that is one of the worst things they could have done.

You are also right about the second point and the defenders of PKP. Yes, there was a lot of bigotry. A grand display of LDS blind faith, all sorts of "The LDS is the one true church and BKP is a true prophet of GOD" stuff. A lot of that does not play well to a lot of other Christians. Funny that I didn't catch that point an put it in though. Yesterday after reading a bunch of the BS support of Packer I thought to myself that the best way to discredit TSCC is to get the faithful rank and file to defend it.

Yes, MJ. I think the (more reasonable) brethren must deeply regret having urged Mormons to go on the internet, facebook, etc., to defend the faith a couple of years ago. It's like the apologists--Peterson and his ilk--whose arguments and insults are so offensive that they ultimately push members away.

If an organization is going to base its credibility on a subtle balance between truth and fiction, then spend millions appealing to the public, it must be very careful. The last thing it wants is its own people, who do not understand the subtlety, to become amateur apologists. They are so honest, so open, with their hatred and bigotry that they make it impossible for the Church to hide the truth.

To have such people on the side of homophobia is a good thing for our cause. Their efforts will accelerate the national trend toward equality. God must be smiling.

the church creates against gays?

If you convince somebody that GOD thinks
that a particular group of people are evil and gross, adults are going to feel perfectly justified in shunning and judging those people. And the KIDS with those attitudes will mock and bully.

Wumingzhe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Church came as close as it could to apologizing to the
> members who were hurt by the campaign, so for many
> people healing began to occur.

I think the Church's attempt at an apology was for PR only and I wonder about the sincerity of the apology. It is a bandaid apology. You know, cover the wound but don't really heal the wound; that calls for surgery. Packer's hateful talk at conference just confirmed the Church hasn't changed how it feels about LGBT. If they were sincere than they would apologize and not just come close to an apology. And BKP wouldn't have been permitted to give that talk at conference.

Seems when the Church is attempting to apologize it's really about damage control and their image.

How does the Church explain their God if they ever change their view of LGBT. Packer's comments and church doctrine that Heavenly Father wouldn't make us anything but straight male and female is a problem for the church because as they think about having to change their belief and accept that heterosexual and homosexual isn't a choice then that begs the question, "Why would God [the Mormon God] have permitted a whole group of people to suffer such pain and hate for how they were born. Oh yea, blame God. That's how they excused their treatment of Blacks for years. Flip Wilson coined the phrase "The Devil made me do it." The church's phrase is "God made us do it."

A partial apology is not an apology. I can commend them that they attempted an apology but I'm waiting for a REAL apology.

I guess I'm trying to say Prop 8 and Packer's diatribe go hand in hand and even though Packer's remarks had more impact on LDS, Prop 8 and Packer's words are really twins, both from the womb of that church. Both are about hate.

Just my MOO

While the apology was, in my opinion, total PR, they also now know that what BKP did was bad PR. They can not continue to have their highest ranking leadership speak as BKP did and have good PR. What happened after Packer's speech was not effective PR, it was damage control. BKP's speech caused PR damage and the LDS could only react in an attempt to minimize damage. Continuing to rely on damage control as a PR strategy would mean they will continue to damage themselves and they would continually be reacting to contain the damage, such a strategy would eventually cause their PR campaign to fail. The only way they can maintain a successful PR campaign is to change their public message.

That said, it is true that the LDS is very good at having a public image that is vastly different than what the faithful believe. I think the LDS church may try dual message stance on this and it may work, at least for a while. There is evidence that at least some of the rank and file members are staring to voice open disagreement with the LDS on this issue. The public message of the LDS would strengthen their case. Those people objecting to any anti-gay message sent via the more private methods of communication would be able to stand up and voice objections using the public stance as both cover and evidence to back them up.

It seems like the LDS has painted themselves into a corner and has very limited options as to how to proceed.

Excellent post, MJ.

I haven't talked to my TBM daughter about this situation yet. I'm sure both of us are avoiding it. She already knows what I think of Packer.

What Packer did is an in your face situation of "the church or your loved one?" If they push this too hard, they, in most circumstances, will only lose.

In the past, the choice was nearly always a knee-jerk "the church."

However, members are beginning to choose their loved one over the church. Even members who are not faced with this choice in their immediate family are beginning to take a look at the extreme anti-gay views of the church and to question their validity.

I agree with cl2 that "If they [church leaders] push this too hard, they, in most circumstances, will only lose."

The original post was my first try at pulling it all together as a coherent message. Because of the complexity of the mess, I was only able to wrap my head around so much. I think someone that teaches public relations could do a major case study on the LDS situation with detail that would dwarf what I could express. The writing of the first post and subsequent discussions has helped clarify and expand on my original thoughts.

The cl2 quote I used in the "Subject" line is one area where some clarification has come about. I am thinking that the concept that they "will only lose" is a little simplistic.

What I am now thinking is that, if TSCC continues to express the views of BKP they will most certainly chase away the more liberal minded but they would retain and attract ardent homophobic hate mongers. I think that if TSCC were to continue to express the views of BKP TSCC would be a smaller but much more homophobic church. Is that "losing"? I do not know, I suppose it would depend on what the leadership wants to accomplish.

I am now considering the possibility that the way TSCC could end up losing the most is to continue to send mixed messages as they are currently doing. The homophobic remarks of BKP chasing away the liberal minded, the more gay positive message expressed in the response the the criticism of that message chasing away the homophobic hate mongers.

Still working on the thoughts along this line of reasoning.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2010 12:52PM by MJ.

Am I the only one who sees the irony in someone named Packer raising a firestorm of controversy with the gays? It's really something, ain't it?