... that I can have a rational conversation with my LDS friends about the inconsistencies in the JS story, the BoM, etc. without being labeled as "anti" and being dismissed?
Probably not. Unless they are on their way out themselves or they've learned some critical thinking skills -- not typical of mormons when it comes to the church.
Bringing up the topic is a quick way to find out who your real friends are though. The ones who stick around, no matter what you believe about the LDS church, are real.
I don't usually bring up the topic... I have my religion and they have theirs.
It does get old though, to be told that my religion lacks "fullness" but the dialogue is a one-way street. I can't say anything without them getting their backs up.
I know they're sincere, and they're nice people, and I'm glad they're happy. Just seems hypocritical I guess.
The dichotomy of mormonism is that mormons are taught their way is the only way and because of this they behave hypocritically, judgmentally, are arrogant and prideful, yet are taught to be humble, loving and respectful. Mormons are taught that everyone will become mormon, whether in this life or the next, you just haven't felt the "spirit" yet.
And, Mormonism is not only a belief system but a way of life, and who they are. If you attempt to discuss mormon beliefs in any way that is either not positive or does not 'fall in line' with what mormon leaders say then you are speaking negatively about them. There is no separation between Mormonism and the self.
Also, Mormons are told they are happy or should be happy because they have the "fullness of the gospel", when in reality, they may really not be happy, just fooling themselves.
The LDS church has the behavioral characteristics of a cult. You are dealing with cult members! The ingrained thought processes are difficult to overcome.
No, you probably can't. Because of that STUPID temple sealing crap, they all believe it makes absolutely no sense to remain in a family or social relationship with someone who hasn't been sealed in a temple, or doubts/leaves the church, because they're not going to be on the same level of heaven anyway.
Because of this, they will even turn on their own family. That temple crap is just evil.
If I talk in generalities I get things like, "It sounds like you've lost the spirit" or "it sounds like you are in danger of losing your testimony" etc.
If I talk about specifics I almost always get, "That must have been from an Anti-mormon site" or something similar.
If it's general, it's a problem with me. If it's specific proof, it's Anti-mormon information.
Either one can be dismissed by them. I've yet to hear, "Wow, I never knew that, and if it's accurate that is pretty damning". Never heard that yet, and I doubt that I will.
Nope. No matter how rational or how well put together your argument is, you won't be getting through unless they are ready.
My family is like that- my mom and I have had several interesting conversations, but once it was discovered that I had left the church, those suddenly turned into my own anti mormon lies designed to destroy her and her eternal family.
I was one of those guys who you couldn't have a rational conversation with. I'd bear my test monkey at you and walk away satisfied. I remember the first time I stumbled across this website- I wondered how such good people could lose their test monkeys and prayed for them.
But that was my deluded self.
My friend at church who knows a great deal about church history and claims to have read all of Quinns books says that he made a decision at a young age to believe, no matter what. He was a great guy, but once it became his job to fix me, the mask came off and he turned out to be a perfect bastard. And a very silly bastard at that.
The problem is this- people are trained from childhood to believe that anything that is even remotely negative about the church is a lie. Anyone who says anything negative is an enemy.
And that was what nearly made me crazy- church stuff written by church people was making the church look negative, and therefore the enemy, which is impossible because the church is only true- nothing else.
JoD3:360 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I remember > the first time I stumbled across this website- I > wondered how such good people could lose their > test monkeys and prayed for them. > > But that was my deluded self. >
I don't know if it was this site, but in about 1999 I found a site that had people's short biographies about leaving. I remember one in particular about a member of a bishopric who led his wife and kids out.
I couldn't believe how devout he was, then become so lost. But perhaps 3% of me wondered if he could be right, while the other 97% said no way, Satan got to him.
Religious beliefs fall in the: Mind Your Own Business category.
My view? Respect people's RIGHTS to their beliefs, no matter what they are. Religious, devout, involved in a church: all that is fine with me. I was given that kind of respect for years and I appreciated it.
Generally, we have no power to change others anyhow. That's their business not mine. If someone comes to me,I'll listen,I'll offer my experience and knowledge and/or make suggestions on what to read etc.
Just because we changed our mind about our religious beliefs, doesn't mean others will. Just because some have turned their love for their religious beliefs (including their friends and relatives) to hate and criticism and negativity,and trying to show people they are wrong, stupid, duped, brainwashed,crazyh cultist idiots, doesn't mean they are welcome either. Who wants all that hate and criticism and negativity around? I don't.Eweee. That kind of thing gives off a stink that can be smelled for miles!
One of the best truisms I learned as a youngster was: If you want to keep a friends, don't discuss religion or politics. For the most part, I don't. Besides, someone else's religion or politics is really none of my business anyhow.
Want to have friends, and keep your relationships? Respect people's rights to their beliefs!
SusieQ#1 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Religious beliefs fall in the: Mind Your Own > Business category. > > My view? Respect people's RIGHTS to their beliefs, > no matter what they are. Religious, devout, > involved in a church: all that is fine with me. I > was given that kind of respect for years and I > appreciated it.
I agree. I'm not trying to change them, but it's annoying that they feel the need to change me. And it doesn't matter what I say, because I clearly am "anti". :/
I have said to members "we are told the lord would not allow a prophet to led the church astray and would remove him....maybe that is what happened to Joseph?. He did start marrying young girls and other mens wives only to be struck dead within 2 years of doing so."
<<<... that I can have a rational conversation with my LDS friends about the inconsistencies in the JS story, the BoM, etc. without being labeled as "anti" and being dismissed?>>>
Mormons have created an alternate reality for themselves where they cannot accept any sources that don't promote their world view. It's a universe that excludes anything that could debunk falsehood. They are in complete and total la-la land. There's no point in discussing it with them, which is difficult because they keep bringing it up.
When I point out errors and wrong actions, people always tell me that my problem is I wanted my prophets to be perfect and that I am not to judge those whom God uses despite their weaknesses.
That is incorrect. They do not need to be perfect, BUT-
I expect them to be believable, and I expect to be able to follow their examples without being excommunicated.