The poster Fetal Deity asks if there was an incident that seemed like a Mormon leader or prophet had received divine inspiration would that make you think twice about having left the Mormon Church; iow, would seeming inspiration or miracle cause you to view that church (or any church?) as being one you should join.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,35917

My answer is No. Even if a bona fide miracle occurred (!) I ask what is the message, if any, supposed to be. Is there one true group to which all humans must belong (as I thought in my youthful searching days)? Or do miracles, if they occur at all, happen all over in different areas and groups, to diverse people, with no particular message attached, not meant to apply to all people for all time?

I am not one to jump on the miracle train as I am down-to-earth in that regard, believing in fact, proof and science first, far before accepting "miracle" as the explanation for an event. Even with the Chilean miner rescue, which was hailed as a miracle, I say that in a general sense it seems "miraculous" that there was a happy ending to what at first seemed like a tragedy, but in reality and being objective (my default position in most things) the "miracle" of the happy ending came about through engineering know-how, fierce determination, hard work, and the actions and grit of the miners themselves. I don't take away from the people involved their deep faith that sustained them, miner and family member and rescuer alike, but I don't think "God" decided these miners should live while others in similar circumstances should die. If nobody had done anything above or below the surface except sit around and wait for God to perform a rescue I am certain the outcome would have been different. It took people power to effect the "miracle". And if the miners did survive and did get out of their gigantic hole without all the people power, then you may be talking miracle. But that isn't the way it went down.

I think that in large part our conclusions arise from the perspective we bring to a situation. If you want to give God the credit you will see things through that filter. If you are more down-to-earth and analytical you will see the various human elements that played a major role in the outcome.

Too, the meaning we attach to an occurrence affects our beliefs and actions. If I see certain events as "miraculous" I may make different choices than I would otherwise. I felt that I had some "spiritual" experiences that led me to join the Mormon Church. If I had seen a bigger picture, perhaps I would have had a different perspective that could have reduced the "spiritual" element down to a more "human" happening that would, indeed, affect my conclusions and choices.

And then there are always my bottom line questions: Even IF a "miracle" occurred, or at least something that was deeply significant to me, how do I interpret the "message", if any? Can I be the recipient of a so-called miracle without it meaning I should join a specific group? Now I think so. Previously I attached meaning to events that I see now likely was not there. It's all in how you look at things.

Re the volcano thing with McKay, even IF it was inspiration or revelation or a miracle, so what. Would that have any special significance for all people everywhere? (As in Join Mormonism!) Would one so-called inspired thought or action mean that the Mormon Church is the only true place for everybody to be, even if it was a bad fit for 98% of the world's population? I know people who greatly dislike associating with the Mormon Church but due to one fleeting unproven "divine" incident they interpret that to mean the church is true and I have to stick it out even if it kills me.

Fortunately for me, I just did not believe that God intended for me to be intensely miserable 24/7, so I was able to go with my gut feeling to get out. In the end, I could reconcile that even IF miracles occurred, the message was not necessarily that the Mormon Church was the answer for every human, living or dead. I certainly wouldn't equate one moment of apparent revelation with being the truth of the universe.

That's why I say so what to McKay's volcano antics. It's weak, very weak, to regard that experience (if it even happened) as being a moment of meaningful inspiration/revelation/miracle. Like most similar incidences, it is too obscure, too limited, too subjective, too open for interpretation, too lacking in proof and too miniscule to be a message for the masses. I certainly would not endlessly endure a life inside Mormonism based on McKay's Mormon Moment. There's just not enough substance and it's too stupid. Any normal person with an ounce of common sense would be "inspired" to extract themselves from an environment of molten lava asap. In fact, most of us wouldn't climb down into an active volcano in the first place and then no "miracle" would be needed to save us. It's a moment of basic common sense (even if a little late) on McKay's part, certainly not an inspiration sufficient for people to flock to "the true church" over it. You'd think. And to state the obvious, even if McKay was inspired to get out of the fiery pit (duh) does that make the Mormon Church "true"? Uh, no. People do (illogically) ascribe meaning in that way though. Fortunately for me, I'm not one of them. At least wrt Mormonism.

At this point, if God wants me to be Mormon I'm gonna need a mighty big shove and irrefutable miracle moment to get me there. Even then I'd be saying are you kiddin' me. The pitiful callings, the boring meetings, the signs, the tokens, the crazy handshakes, passing through the veil courtesy of an aged male, the judgements, the criticisms, the absence of spirituality, the constant misery. I can't go through all that again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 02:38PM by Nightingale.

I'd say your miracle moments resulted in you leaving in the first place.

... "Its not a miracle. We just decided to go."

In my mind, attributing the Chilean miners rescue to an act of godly kindness reduces and discounts the efforts of those who actually made it happen. If nothing else, its an insult to heap praise upon an invisible being who wasn't even in the ballpark while completely ignoring the folks on scene who busted their humps round the clock.

And you can't tell me that god had a divine purpose in saving those particular miners, but couldn't find even the slightest reason to stay the events of 9/11/2001.

So I guess my question is what, exactly, constitutes a bona fide miracle?

In 1992, I was sent to South Dade County, Florida by a prominent North Texas family to clean-up after Hurricane Andrew. I arrived two days after the disaster. It was a mess to say the least.

My first task was to liberate a trapped Orangutan that hadn't had any food or water since the storm hit. The poor folks at the facility were absolutely overwhelmed and didn't really know what to do (most zookeepers are not lumberjacks), so I quickly evaluated the situation, made two cuts on the downed ficus causing the problem and freed the poor primate just in time for breakfast. Took all of five minutes.

Now, I knew these people were still in shock, so when one of the keepers raised his arms to the sky and yelled "THANK-YOU-GOD!" I was very tempted to say "You're welcome!" but wisely bit my tongue for reasons of good form.

Now that's a miracle!

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2010 04:59PM by Timothy.

:)

Seriously, you have excellent points, and I agree with you 100%.

Something else, people often attribute their own accomplishments to god. That's sad.

Christopher Hitchens once said that if were to witness a genuine miracle, he would be far more likely to assume he was hallucinating than that he was actually seeing a suspension of the rules of nature.

Washed and Dissapointed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Christopher Hitchens once said that if were to
> witness a genuine miracle, he would be far more
> likely to assume he was hallucinating than that he
> was actually seeing a suspension of the rules of
> nature.

This

I witnessed a miracle last week.................................................................The Buffalo Bills won a ball game!!!!!

Still not going back to church.

...Elohim is an asshole.

How many miracles really end with God coming down and doing something? Isn't it always a human who takes care of the problem?

I have heard members claim many 'miracles' at testimony meetings... everything ranging form finding lost car keys to narrowly avoiding being bitten in the crotch by a dog.

ya know, I can just imagine the number of entreaties, prayers and promises offered to god, by the chosen people as they were led into the gas chambers.... as they realised they were about to die.

you want to know what I think of a god who finds someone's car keys, but allows 6 million people to die unnecessarily in screaming agony?

no... you dont want to know

No.

How about we start with the GA's having one instance of a miracle in almost 200 years? - none

2nd - how about a prophecy that will come true? Why not have a GA prophecy something and have that come true? It has to be something meaningful as well, like there will be a great famine starting in x year in x county (state, country, etc.). In X year, the lord will raise up a Mormon ruler in X country. Something tangible, where at least some form of prophecy can be deduced.

I'd go back if I had a true First Vision moment. I only left because I believed it was untrue. If I had believed it were true I would have never left.

I have said it before, but I will say it again, because I feel it is worth repeating.

If you excavated the hill Cumorah in NY and found countless bones, metal weapons, breastplates, shields, spears, swords, etc, I would get re-baptized tomorrow. (However, don't hold your breath for this to happen)

There many other BoM believing churches to choose from who actually follow closer to its teachings that the LDS church does.

In fact, here is a chart top show the difference between LDS and BoM teachings:
http://packham.n4m.org/bomvslds.htm

Why don't they excavate the Hill Cumorah? If they know where it is, just dig it up.

They do it all the time with Bible sites, why not with BofM sites?

Are they afraid that there will be nothing there, thus exposing the Emperor as naked?

If God exists then He doesn't interfere physically in our world.

He wouldn't save Chilean miners but not save Haitians.
He wouldn't save German soldiers but ignore the plight of Jews.
He wouldn't prompt David O'Mckay to get off a balcony in front of a volcano but allow children to be abused.

We are left to our own devices and to the things and events of nature (which may be perceived as Gods influence on Earth).

A belief in God may help people emotionally, in the heart and in their mindset. But He isn't going to manipulate our environment.

We know all there is to know about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
For me to believe in it I think I'm going to need a personal visitation...

When the LDS General Authorities finally own up that they are a just a bunch of conmen and it's all a massive fraud - now that indeed would be a bl--dy miracle and one I would accept without reservation!!

I will return to the LDS church the day that they open the Natural Museum of Nephite, Lamanite and Jaredite History.

That would be miracle enough for me.

No, I reject the church on Moral grounds. Shooting and then stripping children of their clothing is a very very very very very very very very very very very ver very immortal thing to do.

The news tonight interviewed a local man regarding the recent plane crash in Payson that killed two people. He said "It's a miracle!"

Apparently two people dying is proof God exists. Or maybe it was because the pilot decided to try to land in a field next to a school rather that on the roof. Whatever it was, it was a miracle. Proof God exists. So there ya go.

What's wrong with me ?

They also have a commission that checks into miracles to make sure that they're "real", and when they can't find any other reasonable explanation for something they pronounce it a miracle. I don't believe in miracles, but I want to work for that commission. It sounds like a fascinating job for a professional sceptic.

in TSCC is hell on earth. We do not know for sure if there is a hell in the hereafter, no one does. I'll take my chances on hell in the hereafter and pass on having mine now.

When I said no to the generic miracle question, and said a miracle wouldn't be enough to overcome the hundreds of flaws and lies and scientific evidence that discredits LDSinc, they asked the bizarro question.

"What if glorified Jesus himself came down to a group of you and your friends and told you all to join, gave you a personal urim-thummin to prove it wasn't a hallucination, and you felt the bosom burning of a lifetime? Then would you rejoin?"

I shrugged and said, "if god did all that, I wouldn't have a choice. He might as well enslave me on his mothership too."

"What if glorified Jesus himself came down to a group of you and your friends and told you all that the Mormon Church was the church of the devil; and that ever since tithing was required, the leaders have lied to members in order to swindle you out of your hard-earned cash, just like the Jewish priests of old? and that if you wanted to be in his church, the church of the Lamb, you must resign immediately from Satan's Mormon church? and suppose he gave you a personal urim-thummin to prove it wasn't a hallucination, and you felt the bosom burning of a lifetime?

"Then would you leave?"

They already have proclaimed miracles. Remember when Paul Dunn stormed the beaches and everyone was killed and he was hit 493 times by bullets but only the heel of his boot was knicked?

There ya go.

Ron

I feel a little bit sorry for PH Dunn.
I sat next to him on the stand at a Youth Convention I had organised. It was a major coup that I had secured an actual Apostle to come and speak so the place was packed.
He was a brilliant speaker, entertaining, humorous and he kept to time. Afterwards he stayed and chatted, very nice man with no noticeable arrogance.

Okay, he told a few porkers in his time but On that basis he should have qualified for promotion rather than expulsion!

Probably not. At this point in my life, I can say that I am 100% sure the Morg is false. Although I'm atheist, if I am honest with myself, I will still say the existence of god is up for debate, as long as there are some good facts that come to light. If god exists, there's no way he would condone Mormonism.

There would have to be one hell of a miracle....

For any "miracle" that may occur, there have got to be multiple explanations. Often, then "miracle" is proclaimed when no other plausible explanation can be offered and "miracle" gets assigned as a default for lack of a better explanation. The proclamation of a miracle these days are often accompanied by a statement that experts can't explain what happened - as if experts have an answer for any and everything.

Thankfully, science is advancing all the time, so I'm fairly sure there will be explanations eventually. I swear I'm not a Catholic lurker missionary, I just always found it a tiny bit easier to "buy" their take on stuff like the parting to the Red Sea that went something like "it's not a miracle that it happened, it's a miracle that it happened when it was needed". Coincidence, methinks.

And some will be more than willing to fill these gaps with God ...

Magical thinking is one way which humans bring magic into their world and it inevitably spices up their lives.

The problem is that many people then conclude that that miracle means that their particular church is the true one. In reality it means that you connected with a higher power.

Now, I will say that religions can cause people to have more faith, even the mormon religion. But the connection and miracle are the result of faith, and anyone can have faith.

I left mormonism because it came to the conclusion that it was a cult, and it still is a cult. It was victimizing, damaging and seriously affects its members thinking abilities negatively. It is anti relationship. It shames, guilts, controls and uses members unmercifully. I cannot accept that damage it does.

Nothing could get me back. Whatever I considered "miracles" in my life before I left, still happen randomly.

By the time I was long out and I read what Steve Benson said about I believe Oaks and Maxwell's "miracles" that they had experienced, I was SHOCKED. Maxwell was my favorite GA--read all his books, etc., especially in the worst times of my life. Then he couldn't even come up with the example of a miracle in his life any better (or less than) any of the ones that happened in my life.

After reading those examples, I then couldn't seem to drag myself away from Hinckley's funeral. Any miracles talked about in that funeral? No. Just stupid stories like the one (told over and over and over again in his life) about him shaking his cane at the crowd. Also sitting through GC after becoming a non-believer was a real eye-opener.

The things the world really needs help with, NOTHING. Most people I know have experiences like the volcano experience on a regular basis.

I am unsure that a God of Truth and Righteousness could perform such a miracle that would bring me back.

Such a miracle would need to answer why sincere study by believers and unbelievers alike draw the same conclusion of its unique teachings being false. Evidence of every kind points away from the church as a divinely sanctioned organization.

So what kind of miracle would it take?

Somehow that church would have to be proven true, but in order to do that, almost all of it would have to be swept away or accounted for.

And if the church with its false history and self-rejected eternal truths is not true now, what will the God of truth leave behind once the miracle is accomplished?

No. Any being, even one with magical superpowers who set up a system which has such a gender bias against 50% of his/hers/its creations DOES NOT DESERVE to be WORSHIPPED. Therefore, any organization set up to support this does not deserve to have people support it.

I told "God" that if he could appear with His son to Joseph Smith, than they could appear to me. Not in some vision, not in some dream, but face-to-face. With them would be my parents and sweetheart who have passed away. All of them could then explain "God's Plan" to me without saying "We don't have a position on that" or "I'm not sure that we teach that".

At the end of the visit I would have the option of leaving with them or staying. If I stayed, everything I did from that point on in my life would be towards glorifying Him and building His kingdom. As a parting gift, I would be given a 5-DVD set of the TRUE history of the world. You know, actual footage of the creation, Adam and Eve, the Titanic sinking, who killed Kennedy, etc.

If "God" loved me as much as I have been told during my lifetime, He would do this for me.

I offered that prayer up nearly 10 years ago.

Still waiting.