and giving it to my atheist son to try and 'bring him back into the fold.'

He's 9, so obviously this kid was set up by his parents to bring this material. I've had to go down to the school to complain so many times to tell the teacher to please contact these parents and tell them it is NOT appropriate for them to be trying to convert someone else's kid behind the parent's back and in a public school setting. If I wanted to raise him in their religion I would take him to church myself.

I would have printed up some material for this kid to read, but I knew my son would have not appreciated being used as a medium for retaliation. Although it would have been hilarious. I'm sure the parents would have been down at the school complaining and I would have had fun pointing out their hypocrisy. ;)

Not only that, but my son doesn't have any other peers who are secular like him, so when a kid starts pushing religion at him it just makes him feel really isolated. But isn't that the purpose of separation of church and state?

Maybe they just assume I don't care enough to attend church and can't wrap their heads around the fact that I purposely do NOT go for a reason?

I remember as a kid being told I should push my religion onto my non-member friends. I was actually embarrassed to discuss religion outside of church, so I would never do this. Now I just think what NERVE people have to try and indoctrinate someone else's kid with their dogma behind the parent's back and to manipulate their own children into doing it for them.

Does anyone else find this happening to their kids?

wait to see the other parents show up and have a talk with them myself. Give the kid your # number to give to his parents. Something. If the school won't deal with it deal with it yourself.

It hasn't been so overt since the teacher called him, although I know the kid brings up religion to my son still.

I raised my two kids in the far southeast corner of Salt Lake City. In the elementary school they attended (Highland Park) about 2/3 of the students were Mormons, and the rest were either secular or of another faith. The non-Mormon kids tended to band together and be friendly with each other, perhaps as a reaction to not being part of the Momo majority. So my kids were never isolated and always had non-Mormon friends as they attended public school.

If your child doesn't have any secular friends, it would seem logical to change locations and schools so that is no longer a problem.

I don't think you can entirely stop it, but teachers shouldn't allow religious materials to be distributed or kids to proselytize. I suspect that a lot of this is not being done when adults are around. Teachers can't be everywhere and don't see everything.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think you can entirely stop it, but
> teachers shouldn't allow religious materials to be
> distributed or kids to proselytize. I suspect that
> a lot of this is not being done when adults are
> around. Teachers can't be everywhere and don't see
> everything.


That's the real problem. We can't be there all the time. But I believe what Cheryl said; it's time to call the parents and talk to the kids about how inappropriate this is.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think you can entirely stop it, but
> teachers shouldn't allow religious materials to be
> distributed or kids to proselytize.

Are we talking between each other in the hall? In a class presentation? Is the teacher handing these out?

I don't see an issue with children interacting in whatever way they want. I do see an issue with the kid getting up in class with the teachers permission and saying "Please take one of these wonderful handouts on the Atonement (or Amway, or Nuskin, or the Communist Party)

Legally, students have a right to attend schools free of unreasonable racial, sexist, and religious harassment. If there is an aggressive student or group of students who bother anyone at school because of their religious beliefs, the school has a responsibility to make an effort to put a stop to it.

Depending on the age and circumstances, these kinds of activities can impact the classroom. Older students have the abiltiy to fend off much of these kinds of verbal assaults while younger kids often do not.

I've never had a problem with mormon students, but I've seen many problems with JWs and Holy Rollers who tell kids that they're doomed if they don't join up. This is as wrong as telling a child they're evil if they have a gay parent or an interacial family.

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Legally, students have a right to attend schools
> free of unreasonable racial, sexist, and religious
> harassment.

And obviously you would define talking to another student at school about your belief that saying omygod or that people shouldn't drink tea is UNREASONABLE and HARASSING. I disagree and believe that your reaction as a public official puts us all in danger and is why we live in the police state we do. You would be a perfect fit for the TSA come to think of it.


>If there is an aggressive student or
> group of students who bother anyone at school
> because of their religious beliefs, the school has
> a responsibility to make an effort to put a stop
> to it.

I would agree that bullying is not ok. But define for me how the original interaction leads you to believe that it is at the level of bullying and that you need to step in and lecture all the students about why it is not ok to speak to other students of religious beliefs? Come to think of it, aren't teachers borderline bullies when they bring up topics the students are uncomfortable with? Like math?

When mormon missionaries hang around school yard and encourage non-mos to go to church, I wouldn't say they are bullying. When a group of churchgoers tell non-believers that they need to attend primary, they are not necessarily bullying.

What they are doing is using a tax payer financed school setting to try to spread dogma to non-believers. If there's a comfortable two way conversation going on, no one minds. But if there's someone feeling diminished, harassed, or threatened, they have a right to ask a teacher or other school official for help. Children in school are a captive audience. They can't just go home or hide in a closet and they have a right to have their religious preferences respected.

I would sit down with my son and discuss the content and inoculate him against deceptive and illogical marketing practices.
My son was being given a hard time at school because he doesn't believe in God. My son said, "You believe what you want; I'll believe what I want. Okay?" The kid stopped bugging him. My son is 7.

I like your response a lot. I will pass that on to him.

the rest of the kids exposed to this bad practice.

Those passing out this junk need to learn boundaries. Other children, not just our own need protection. And schools need to do what they're meant to do and spreading religious dogma is not their purpose.

As a teacher, I would have sat the class down on the floor in front of my chair, seriously looked into their faces, and told them that I would NOT put up with this, that anyone would be in trouble who did this in the future. The class needs to understand that public schools are NOT religious institutions. It's illegal to misuse them to spread one person's idea of religion.

Then I'd phone every parent who had a child doing this.

If a teacher isn't up to the task, the principal needs to step in and send out a notice to all of the parents in the class where this happened.

As a taxpayer, I don't want my dollars going to spreading religious dogma. As a parent or a teacher, I would not put up with it!

Sorry but how are your tax dollars going to spreading religious dogma in this case? This is an interaction between one student and another, not from the school to the student.

I see this as a natural consequence of the culture you live in and not the school or public officials establishing religious dogma.

The whole idea of keeping school officials out of religion is to KEEP THEM OUT OF RELIGION. It goes both ways that if you sit your students down and tell them that it is not ok for them to speak of religion to each other you are using tax dollars to jump into the fray of religion.

I would say stay out of it, it's none of the school's business what students talk to each other about.

Your views scare me when I think of how much people would use public institutions to enforce their views or keep others from expressing their own. What if pokemon were offensive to someone? What if I don't believe in government ideological conditioning (i.e. social studies)? Are my views then respected and other children told not to talk to each other about it? What about sports? What if I believe that sports are a leftover remnant of a male dominated social structure that gives monetary and social rewards to people who resemble neanderthols? Would you establish rules that children are not able to speak of sports with one another? No trading cards allowed at school and no one discusses the super bowl . . . I'm sure we can come up with tens of thousands of subjects that we can all disagree on. Using public institutions to keep us from discussing them with each other is dangerous and counterproductive. I guess we could stick our kids in a box and just let them grow up on a computer (is that happening already?).

This is something that should be between kids and parents, not between the school and the kids. The best thing you can do is teach your child to understand the framework of what is happening instead of sending him the indirect message that he is fragile and must be protected from this kind of information.

Just my 2.5 cents.

Boughxb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
The
> best thing you can do is teach your child to
> understand the framework of what is happening
> instead of sending him the indirect message that
> he is fragile and must be protected from this kind
> of information.
>
> Just my 2.5 cents.


I'm not concerned about him getting the information. I am concerned about him feeling isolated for the way it is given to him. This student tells my son he's going to hell for saying omigod and for not believing in his dogma. I find that inappropriate and hurtful. Then, since he is cloaking his bullying in religious justifications, the other students rally and make self-righteous comments toward DS as well.

Isn't that something you take into account when you decide to move into a culture like that?

Any individual who takes on a lifestyle or belief outside the mainstream is going to stand out. You just have to help him understand why he stands out and why it's important.

Unfortunately that is the way it works in the world. Read Lord of the Flies sometime.

If you want your child to be accepted and loved and part of a big group of people that share his beliefs or respect his beliefs you should look to live in a place which has diversity.

I would never expect the school or institution to do that for me. Think how the parents on the other side of the equation feel - "My son is being influenced by an atheist! We need to call the school now! What if we send him with some literature? That will fix it"

The one size fits all solution of public education is the cause of your issues. The fact that you don't have choice to send your child to a school of your choice which is built around your beliefts is the problem, not the boy who thinks omygod is going to send you to hell.

Are you totally clueless? You're arguing against an opinion that wasn't even expressed.

vhainya Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you totally clueless? You're arguing against
> an opinion that wasn't even expressed.


Can you be more specific? I'm obviously clueless about where your open ended insult is coming from.

Issue
______
Attending school and kids are talking to my kid about things that he doesn't believe and making him feel like a loner because he doesn't belong to the the larger group of kids

Comment
_________

Move to a community which isn't made up of a single belief system and kids are more comfortable seeing diversity.

Don't look to the institution to police the larger groups behavior expressing their commonly help belief system and interacting with someone that doesn't hold that belief.

Boughxb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> vhainya Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Are you totally clueless? You're arguing
> against
> > an opinion that wasn't even expressed.
>
>
> Can you be more specific? I'm obviously clueless
> about where your open ended insult is coming
> from.
>
> Issue
> ______
> Attending school and kids are talking to my kid
> about things that he doesn't believe and making
> him feel like a loner because he doesn't belong to
> the the larger group of kids

No.. They are not trying to have an honest discussion with him about religion at this point as a way to express and exchange ideas in a constructive manner. He is getting bullied.
>
> Comment
> _________
>
> Move to a community which isn't made up of a
> single belief system and kids are more comfortable
> seeing diversity.

I actually do live in a diverse area with multiple belief systems, but even if I did not, it does not justify religious intolerance. The past few months should have sent a clear message what a devastating impact intolerance has on children.
> http://abcnews.go.com/US/gay-teen-suicide-sparks-debate/story?id=11788128 (Fifth Gay Teen Suicide in Three Weeks Sparks Debate)

You do not see this as an opportunity to teach students tolerance so they stop bullying their peers over their misguided bigotry?

> Don't look to the institution to police the larger
> groups behavior expressing their commonly help
> belief system and interacting with someone that
> doesn't hold that belief.

Again, my problem is not with them expressing their beliefs. It is with the bullying they use their beliefs to justify.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2010 12:50PM by vhainya.

Wasn't that the deserted island with no adults and the kids ran amok?

See? We need adults to step in and keep the kids in line.

I was actually thinking that the book shows how natural it is for people to attack anything different/special in the group.

Anytime someone stands outside the mainstream they need to know it is human nature to try to kill it. Stepping outside the Mormon culture in happy valley is in essence taking on the mantle of "Piggy"

"Piggy is the intellectual with poor eyesight, a weight problem, and asthma. He is the most physically vulnerable of all the boys, despite his greater intelligence. Piggy represents the rational world. By frequently quoting his aunt, he also provides the only female voice." Wikipedia

I could have probably picked a different book to illustrate the frothy mob attacking someone different but I didn't :)

They are often worried that their child feels maginalized, diminished, or harassed by religious aggrssers.

Pushing religious ideas on a kid who is in the religious minority at school is not innocuous like pokemon cards or the superbowl. It usually involves kids sending the message that the non-religious child is evil, unacceptable, inferior, broken, perhaps in danger of the judgements of God, and need to be fixed. It makes the religious minority child feel isolated and a little bit scared of being discovered.

In my book it ranks up there with bullying or harrassment.

My two oldest kids had to deal with this sort of thing in elementary school. One of them had some kind of religious tract out of the Ensign given to her in 2nd GRADE, which was obviously set up by the parents. Second graders don't read the Ensign.

One child anxiously waited while a classmate walked up to EVERY child in the class and asked if they were a Mormon (I can only presume the teacher was out for a minute). The same child was pinned to the ground at recess while one of her best friends told her the Joseph Smith story. (I didn't hear about this one until YEARS later, otherwise I would have contacted the parents). Interestingly, that child started having a lot of health problems about that same time--I REALLY wish I had known about this incident.

I think it's fine for young kids to discuss religion with their friends. I even think it's an okay topic for discussion in the classroom IF DONE RESPECTFULLY and PROPERLY to build understanding and mutual respect. I honestly don't care if they sing Christmas music because that's a cultural heritage.

But schools need to step in when religious materials are distributed or when a kid is being singled out as different (not just religiously, but because of race or sexual orientation as well). Kids need to be taught to be tolerant and respect diversity, because they sure aren't getting that at home. Teachers need to avoid favoring certain religious beliefs in the classrom. The issue here is that kids need to feel safe at school, not isolated, attacked or defensive.

And yes, we HAVE contacted the school several times to make it clear when the line has been crossed. The principal has taken the tack that he can't DO anything about it, but we bugged him repeatedly, and somehow things have improved anyway and our youngest (at the same school) has no problems worth getting bothered about. Maybe there is just more diversity now in Utah. I don't know where the original poster lives, but things got better as the kids get older (and we're in Utah). Our oldest is very openly atheist in HS and her social life has not suffered in the least.

And to boughx, NO, I don't advocate sending my children the message that they are fragile and need to be protected from this information! I advocate sending my kids the message that there are BOUNDARIES. They don't need to PUT UP with crap like that at school. They are there to learn and don't have to let people shove religion down their throat. That's a VERY different message than one of fear or weakness.

When something makes a kid feel emotionally marginalized or harassed at school, it's a problem.

but about keeping dogma out of the schools.

Religious practices and harassment don't belong on non-religious public school settings which are set aside to meet the needs of everyone's children.l



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2010 01:10PM by Cheryl.

The teacher did call parents, and it toned down a LOT. Now it's more of the kids commenting to my son what behaviors of his are and are not acceptable to Gawd. (DS says omigod and is told he's swearing at gawd, or other trivial things they're told in church are eeeevil.) There's also a lot of fundamentalists who live in this area and I am sure they do it too, but the Mormon kids are the worst. Do you find these sorts of criticisms grounds for going back to complain again?

ABSOLUTELY! You would be well within reason to talk to the teacher about the fact that it's only toned down, not gone away.

for students to do this. It is unlawful if the teacher is involved or if the school promotes. However, kids can promote and preach as desired,, in the hallways and on the playground. That said, if the kid are bullying others then, no matter what they are saying it can be stoped.

I was a teacher for years and then a librarian in a school and I think the best defense is as mentioned by steveadams, talk to your child about it. I am an atheist and I did not promote it in school but when presented with one side, I tried to give the other side as well. Using, "some people believe...and this is why"

The behaviors don't have to be illegal for goodness sake.

Telling kids that they can't impose their church expectations on other students is well within the norms for teachers everywhere.

"Johnny, I hear you've been telling other kids that they can't say certain things and that they're bad for drinking tea. I've talked to you about this before. You're not the boss of what kids do. I am. If you don't like what they do, you can tell me and I'll decide if it's acceptable. Since you're having trouble with this, I'm going to have to keep you in from recess to think about it. At this point I can't trust you to be with other students for the rest of the day."

I'm going to call bullcrap on this also. It's outside your realm as a teacher to tell my student what behaviour is ok and what is not. Talking to another student on the playground about keeping his jimmy in his pants, not drinking tea, which pokemon are best, which sports figures are best, if Jesus exists or not, if the big bang happened is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. It is not disruptive to the education system whatsoever.

Even if the kid gets up in class and says "I don't think people should drink chocolate milk because God says I shouldn't" is not something that you should correct. It's not your curriculum. You are welcome to say "that's great! but this really isn't the place for it as we're learning about what chocolate milk does for your body."

You are the one who would like to use taxpayer dollars to enforce or remove a dogma, not the child.

harassed, diminished, or outnumbered by religious harassment.

Private conversations on the playground are not a concern unless they are intrusive to a child's rights and are a concern to the child's parents.

Really? If a parent believes it is harrassment it makes it harrassment? What if the parent is just a whiner? Or a parent that believes that their child is soooo sensitive that no one at the school should ever talk to her about her totally whacky lifestyle?

Your education philosophy of coddled children who never develop independent backbones or true self-esteem is precisely why I am so worried about what my kids are learning in school.

Go to the parents directly. Bring your son, make sure they have their son there, and tell them firmly that this harassment will not continue.

Tell them they are perfectly able to worship without bullying your son into doing the same.

CLUE PHONE: they DO NOT. That's why adults get to run their lives until they reach an age of majority.

Nor are teachers supposed to be referees in mix-ups like this. They don't get paid nearly enough to be your lackey, and it isn't their problem unless it disrupts their class. Learn to handle your own problems.

Make an appointment with the kid's parents and tell them in no uncertain terms that they are to make their kid learn to use better manners among his peers, keep his stupid superstitious opinions to himself, and quit harassing your child. And if they taught him to be that way, they need to learn better manners themselves.

If that doesn't work, make an appointment with the school's principal, inform him of your situation, and request suggestions on how to make this problem end. If you get no satisfaction from the principal, take it to the school board. A public school is no place for this kind of religulous harassment. If the problem persists or you meet resistance, cheerfully offer to take it to the media and the court system.

I see no reason to pretend to play nice with religious freaks.

And how far do you believe the school board should reach on this? Should they place recorders on each of the students to ensure that they are not speaking of subjects which may offend others? What consequences should children have of asking another student on the playground why their mother has a tatoo of a penis on her neck?

Blah blah blah, just another advocate of a nanny mentality that the individual is so fragile that the institution needs to step in with public dollars and tell everyone what is ok to talk about.

Schools are their to instruct, not indoctrinate either way.

Oh yes, it happened to my daughter. She was pushed and pushed to associate with Mormon kids and to go to some FHE's too. She worked and I didn't always know how long her eve. at work would last, but I know now some Mon. eves. she would leave work and go to a FHE. I had NO knowledge of this. The Mormons keep it all secret and tell these kids to not talk aobut it or lie.

One Mormon man came up to our table at a restaurant once when we had all gone out for a B-day dinner or our older child. HE walked right up to our daughter who had Mormon friends and said "You aren't at FHE tonight?" I was floored. How dare he enter our space, not introduce himself and talk religion to her!!!!....to say I was annoyed is an understatement. Mormons are rude and know no boundries. This man never made any eye contact with the rest of us. He acted like we were not there. And yes in his eyes we do not exist.

Stop messing with the teacher if its not getting you anywhere.

It's a contentious issue, and the ACLU has been involved sometimes to defend students' rights to distribute literature, but most schools have a policy (which actually may be illegal) against distributing any kind of propaganda on school grounds. At my high school in California (public) that was the case, and there was even trouble when kids wanted to do a non-school sponsored literary magazine. But the rule is geared toward advertising, and I'd assume religious advertising is even worse.

Go to the Ward that they attend and complain to their Bishop.
Tell him that if it continues you will do an article in the local press about Mormon harassment of minors.

It will probably stop

telling parents not to use their kids to preach to other kids or invite them to church without talking to the non-LDS parents first. He talked about how it felt to non-LDS kids to be constantly bugged about religion at school, etc. It was published. He got tons of positive comments about it at the online comment board.

sensitivity and respect for other beliefs and non-belief.

Many LDS kids (and grownups) have never considered what it must feel like to be on the receiving end of missionary work. I know I never did until I had a close friend at BYU who was (and still is) non-LDS. I was the one she would come to when she was upset or enraged as one friend (or boyfriend) after another tried to convert her. She felt unaccepted, and like people weren't her real friends . . . that they thought she needed fixing and were just acting like her friends so they could convert her. It had never occurred to me what that must feel like. Needless to say, I never made a missionary attempt on her (although at one point I thought I received some kind of revelation that she would join the church someday, but thankfully I never acted on that). I think nearly every LDS friend she had made a missionary attempt, severely damaging their friendship.

We are still friends 20+ years later.

But back to the original point . . . . teachers can't police kids every minute, but they CAN plant the idea that it's inappropriate to push their beliefs on others.

vhainya Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I would have printed up some material for this kid
> to read, but I knew my son would have not
> appreciated being used as a medium for
> retaliation.
>

What a wise parent. Hearing that makes my day.

As a former child I recall that most of my fellow children at school would discuss whatever they wanted to while adults were not present. I don't think that teachers or staff are going to be able to control this; they have their hands full. I think the best defense is to deal with it yourself; in conversations with your child about the situation and trying to contact the parents of the "little missionary;" although said parents are likely to think their "Little missionary" is doing a good thing.

I agree. Although I know how much all my kids almost worshipped their teachers. At least in elementary. If a teacher were to say something to the offending child or children I would think it would stop pretty quickly. I know when I try to correct something my 4th grader tells me is right he will say "But Mrs. W said that was right." They love their teachers!

For me, the line is drawn when a child is being harrassed, teased or bullied. However, a teacher does not and cannot see everything. Kids also need to learn how to deal with things themselves. If they are the only non Mormon in a class, they probably are going to feel marginalized and there is not a lot anyone can do about it. That does not mean that a teacher should allow teasing, preaching or bullying or that the teacher shouldn't do her best to make sure that everyone is included. However the teacher cannot follow the kids around during the school day, listen in on every conversation and tell kids who to be friends with. It is a difficult situation and I feel for the OP. I think she needs to express her concerns to the teacher over the big things, empower her son to deal with stuff and, as a last resort, talk to parents. Good luck.