I am not Mormon. Before becoming involved with Josh* I knew almost nothing about this religion.
However, throughout the course of us being together, I became more aware of the church. Let me just start out by saying that I believe the church is a huge hoax, and I feel sorry for Mormons who have been brainwashed into believing and buying into these fantastical beliefs.

Josh and I were really good friends before we became romantic and in no time at all we fell in love. I am so in love with this guy.
To me, he never seemed to be a true Mormon. We never discussed religion. I am not a very religious person. I believe in God and your personal relationship with God should be just that -- personal.

I was with Josh throughout the process of him filling out his missionary paperwork. I was there when he got his call. And I was there the last hour before he became a set apart missionary.
It's been a couple of months since he's left and I am still heartbroken. I could see myself marrying him and being with him forever.
And I would have completely disregarded it if Josh came off as a hard core, true Mormon.
We participated in sexual acts while we were dating. I even discussed this with him, asking if he felt like a hypocrite. I gave him some time to think. I told him that if he wanted me to stop (I by no means forced him into anything) I would help him and do that. However, he seemed to not care and we continued to be sexually active. (Note: He was, and still is a virgin, but the things we did I am certain are NOT okay with the church)

We write all the time and share our feelings. He has hopes of coming home after his mission and marrying me. I told him I could see myself with him forever as well. But I would never be willing to convert.
He decreed he didn't care if I ever converted, and a little more hesitantly, raise our children to be Mormon. He said that he was on his mission so others may be 'enlightened' even if he doesn't walk away from it a 'better' Mormon.

As long as we can respect eachother we will be ok.
My beliefs on others religions, no matter how hoaxy I find it -- If it makes you happy, a better person, and isn't hurting anyone, then more power to you.

I am not sure what to do. I know I have two years to figure it out, but a part of me thinks that if Josh would marry a non Mormon, he may not fully believe in the church himself.
He has expressed sadness at being away, and all he wants to come home to me again.

His three reasons for staying:
1. It would be a hassle to pack it in, make the calls, and come home.

I stopped reading there. If that's his number one reason, shouldn't he be reconsidering some things?

I have told him that I do want him to come home, but if he thinks serving his full two years will make him happy then stay.

I love this boy so much. I was willing to suffer the pain of him leaving for the sake of us being together the year we were before he left.
We left eachother on these terms-
We aren't technically together anymore. (We write as though we are however)
It isn't fair of him to ask me to wait. So I can see other people if I want to. (I've tried, but I push them away. Still in love, I don't want to get over Josh)

I've wondered what he'd think his parents would see us as. Josh has never been obediant to his parents. He is an individual at heart. Which is why it amazes me so much that he stays Mormon.
I don't doubt that his parents might be somewhat upset/disappointed, but that wouldn't stop Josh.
He says he's out on his mission for him. Not his parents.
He writes and says he visits mixed families a lot. Couples with a convert, couples with only one Mormon, etc.
I have made it crystal clear that I will never convert, and he wouldn't want me to just for his sake or because he wants it.
He has expressed this to me clearly.

I would like some perspective on the matter.
What do you think?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 03:25AM by rockfish.

Well my heart goes out to you, my story is kinda similar but different in key ways.

I joined the church over a year before I found the girl I dated for 7 months. Her and I started having sex immediately after meeting, she actually was almost ex'ed over sex.

My problem was I realized not only did I not want to be a member of the church I could NOT spend my life with someone who believes in nonsense. Even though she broke ALL the rules she refused to even discuss the fact that the mormon church might not be true.

It became too much for me, today we are not even friends.

If you can spend the rest of your life being with someone who is a member of an evil religion like the LDS church, and honestly think he will not eventually pressure you to join all I can say is good luck with that.

Either his mission will knock him completely out of the church, or he will become obsessively and self-righteously Mormon. Missions are extremely powerful influences on those that go. I've seen many casual, just-going-for-the-family types change into the most obsessive True Believing Mormons ever in those two years. They are very controlled years. On the other hand, here on the board I've read about people that weren't into it and eventually left (they weren't changed by the mission).

My two brothers that went were (well, one is currently changing week by week).

I'm also confused as to why Josh went at all.

I'm sorry, it's difficult, but expect him to change unpleasantly and try to have other relationships. If he lasts the entire two years and it's really his own choice, then there is no way you can have a healthy relationship when he gets back. He will be completely brainwashed.

Sadly, I'm afraid he's as brainwashed as any mormon.

Josh went on a mission hoping to "enlighten" others, or failing that, to make himself a better Mormon. Not such an independent thinker.

Ms. pointed out above that RM's tend to go one of two ways when they return. A huge number (something like forty percent) fall away from the faith altogether, either immediately or at some point thereafter. But the even larger proportion of RM's become even stronger in the faith. Many people think that's a huge factor in why the church sends them on missions.

Either way, your boyfriend will come back a changed person. He will have a chat with his Mission President before he returns, and with his bishop after, in which he is strongly urged to find an upstanding Mormon woman and marry in the temple. And if he falls into the latter group of RM's who are made stronger in their faith, the chances of him doing this are overwhelming. It may happen shockingly fast, too -- within two or three months of his return.

I'm sure that you know that marriage in the temple "for time and all eternity" is hugely emphasized in the Mormon church. According to your boyfriend's beliefs, you both could not attain the highest level of heaven without it. And he would be facing the prospect of (supposedly) being cut off from his own family in the afterlife.

I don't want to say that marriage between the two of you is impossible. As your boyfriend pointed out, there are part-member families. But you face a lot of obstacles ahead of you.

I would proceed with your life while you're waiting. Date other guys, and above all else, pursue your schooling and prepare yourself for a career. You may never work outside of the home once you're married, but it's best to be ready in case you need to.

One more thing -- the boy that I fell madly in love with when I was your age was, in retrospect, not the best fit for me. Looking back at all the boys I knew back then, I would have chosen far differently given the perspective I have now. Just something to think about.

Run
Run for your life
You have a two year head start, use it

In my un-professional opinion, I'd say you probably should do some dating, 2 years of putting your life on hold is a long time, especially when there is no guarantee that you 2 will be the same person in the next few years, and most likely will not be. But after 2 years if you still feel the same about each other then you can always get back together.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do though.

I converted for my Mormon husband and now that I woke up to the evil that it is, it gets disturbing, taxing on my senses, annoying and hard to continuously ignore the warped mind stream and way of thinking that is DH. If you are willing to listen to it the rest of your life and be never good enough then by all means. Actually, all relationships are different so everyone has to do what they feel is the right thing. (That last sentence I typed is like the drug disclaimer.)

I was almost completely out of the church when I met a woman to whom I became engaged. She was a TBM in a very TBM family. Nice woman, smart, pretty. A really good person. We were together for almost two years. During that time she became insistent that I rejoin the church. Her family was also actively insistent. It became clear to them my heart wasn't in it and she broke off our engagement at her mother's prompting.

That was a HUGE favor to me although I didn't see it right away. The only way for our relationship to work was for me to be an active member of the church again. That would have killed our relationship some years down the road anyway and by then there probably would have been children involved.

Most mormon families will NOT accept a non-member spouse. Depending on your boyfriend they may have to learn to live with you but it will be unpleasant. I feel bad for you but sometimes it's best to cut your losses. Obviously the decision is yours but I've never seen it go any other way.

Please do not wait two years for him. Go out and date - if for no other reason than to develop your social network and social skills. It's vital at your age that you do so.

If the two of you are meant to be together - you'll hit it off when he returns, and no problems. But if it doesn't, you've wasted two years waiting for this guy (who by the way, is not putting his life on hold for you since he went on a mission).

I was in the same situation as you were - with a description of a Mormon boyfriend that was nearly identical to yours. He came back a completely brainwashed Mormon.

Sad but true - Josh is a true Mormon. He went on a mission for himself. That's what true Mormons do. Independently-thinking Mormons complain about how the mission experience puts their lives on hold and throws them behind their peers. They fight their parents about going on a mission. They strive to go to college - or to get out and get a job - instead of a mission.

True Mormons think their missions "enlighten" others. In reality, they harm others by trying to tell people that the Mormon beliefs are better than anyone else's. His home teaching of mixed couples cause division within those families, I can guarantee you.

In reality, a mission is set up to indoctrinate and brainwash the missionaries so they stay true to the church. What he's telling you are all of the key phrases they teach missionaries to say to the girl waiting for them back home.

Please, PLEASE do not wait for him. Get your life moving and see other guys. The next four years of your life are crazy with how many changes you will go through emotionally. You may not even recognize yourself from today when he gets back from this mission.

Your daughter has a serious condition. You have to make some important decisions about the baby.

YOU. I think Dr. So and So has the right idea. He's done research and seems like he knows what he's doing.

HIM. The pediatrician said to use the other guy. He's a member and he's known him since high school.

YOU. What does that matter? It's his qualifications that are important - is he right about our daughter. This specialist has his finger on the latest research and survival statistics.

HIM. But we know the pediatrician and we don't know the specialist. Also...the bishop was in same ward Boy Scouts with the other doctor.

YOU (pacing). You make no sense. You told me the other night that you haven't got time to sort things out, right or wrong, that you go by what is in "canonized scripture." So I ask you about the Doctrine & Covenants, do you actually believe that the earth will become a giant crystal ball and that the faithful Mormons will look into it and watch the activities on inferior planets. You said, "If that's what it says, I believe it."

You want to choose a doctor based on the old boys network! I'll tell you what--I specifically don't want anybody touching my daughter that believes that bullshit boyclub brainwashed crap you believe. What kind of a doctor believes the Book of Abraham after it's been proven to be a fraud? Who believes the word of a proven pedophile?

What is WRONG with your mind?????

This is the person who will be helping you make important decisions as your husband. Use your own seerstone right now and see a future with you sitting for endless hours in a pew so the ward (and the single women) can see him with his "loyal" wife. Or see him looking hangdog coming home from Church saying, "You know I can't handle all three kids in the pew, can't you come just to help me out with them?"


Anagrammy

I agree, you should give other guys a chance during these two years. Besides, if you look at the statistics, chances are pretty small that you will both still want to marry each other by the end of these two years. Here is a quote from a "waiting for my missionary" web page:

"Only 3% of girls who plan on waiting for their missionary actually end up marrying him."

I strongly recommend you do some dating and give other people a chance. As others have said, after two years on a mission, he's either going to come back a total TBM, or he will want to ditch the church. That's an awfully big 50/50 chance to take with 2 years of your life.

There is a lot of info on that web page to help you decide weather or not you really want to wait:

http://www.freewebs.com/waitingformymissionary/preparingtowait.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 10:44AM by melissa3839.

You may not want to hear it but you'd be best off if you moved on. There's a chance that he may come back not believing but it's slim. Sure he sounds a little conflicted but if he claims he's serving for himself, that's bad and in 'the field' the indoctrination is crazy.

My story: I had doubts about Mormonism at 19 and decided to go on a mission as a way to test the religion. Big mistake. I was successfully indoctrinated and became true believing Mormon of sorts....for the next 10 or so years. I was able to 'shelf" those nagging issues and doubts and only in my mid-30s did I again begin to look at the hoax. I no longer attend but am married to an active Mormon. Needless to say it has caused some friction.

You're young. I know now it seems like he's the only one for you but he's not. Do you really want to risk a lifetime mixed up with something that you see as a hoax. The Church consume all around. It will try to control your sex life, what movies you watch, what you eat, it will ask for 10% of what you make and you will have to submit to all male authority etc. And all based on some 19th century fabrication.

You have a little time. Date and have fun while he's gone. If you still think he's the only one in 18 mos then at least you know what you're risking.

Good luck.

Rockfish, I very much feel where you are coming from. Please realized that within Mormonism, marriages of mixed belief are VERY difficult. Because of the centralized themes of their doctrine where one person's salvation is dependent on the choices people close to them make. A spouse, or child rejecting the church can cost him his "inheritance," according to the Mormon faith.

I agree with some of the other posters who say that his mission can either cement or destroy his faith. It sounds like he's a closet doubter and is desperate to save his faith, which would be why he left so suddenly on a mission before at least resolving things with you.

He still holds out hope that you'll be available to him when you return, and says he loves you despite your lack of enthusiasm toward the church; he may not care about that now, but he WILL care about that as long as he remains in the church.

Marrying a gentile is a huge no-no in the church. You will never be accepted by his tbm family and you will find no support from them. They will do everything they can to convert your children, and undermine your relationship in order to do so.

However, being that he could be a closet doubter, I suggest you urge him to open up to you. Frank honesty is really important in a relationship, especially one with so many barriers already there. If he cannot respect you enough to at least give you that then please cut your losses and move on. If he's serious about this relationship he will treat you as an equal. He OWES you the honest truth about what he's thinking, even if some of those things are unpleasant. Call him on the bullshit in his letter! Tell him the relationship is in crisis. Let him know he's not treating you fairly and you deserve real answers, not ones he's been programmed to say, or what he thinks you want to hear.

Please keep us updated.

V.

I want to come at it from a different angle, more than just how he will change in these 2 years.

While he's gone, whether you date anyone or not, you will be going to school, working a job, meeting new people, and, most importantly, discovering who YOU are.

I look back at my time with my first boyfriend in High School fondly. I actually still love him (you know, the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" kind) and we randomly keep in touch. However I still feel about him, I know that I am nowhere even close to the person I was at that age, and our relationship would have changed a lot over the years, for good or bad.

So even if you two do end up together, make sure that you aren't putting anything on hold. Get out and see the world & discover yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 11:16AM by foggy.

Thank you, everyone.
I think I've decided to continue to write Josh - If there is a slight chance of him coming back and ditching his faith, I want to keep up with who he is; so he doesn't return a complete stranger.

However, I am planning on (when I'm emotionally ready, that is) seeing other people and dating.
I'm going to a community college as of now, but in a few months will transfer to a University and not have to live at home anymore - very excited about that!
I appreciate all of your input. Here's to the next two years.

-rockfish

(On a side note, I hate how Mormons call non Mormons 'gentiles.' My whole family is Jewish - and I believe we've got a good 3,000 years on them in the vocabulary department. To me, THEY'RE the gentiles)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 12:34PM by rockfish.

rockfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> (On a side note, I hate how Mormons call non
> Mormons 'gentiles.' My whole family is Jewish -
> and I believe we've got a good 3,000 years on them
> in the vocabulary department. To me, THEY'RE the
> gentiles)


The connotation is still better than "apostate!"

I think this is a great course of action, Rockfish.

Definitely write to him - a connection to the world that isn't full of missionary work is a good thing for anyone. Having a connection to a friend who doesn't care about him ONLY because of his faith (which is his entire world right now) is a good thing.

There's nothing wrong with returning to the good friendship you had prior to dating - and if you can keep that strong, fantastic. We all need friends like that, regardless of our age.

In the meantime, have a blast at college. :)

I always thought using the word gentiles by Mormons was pretty nervy! Wondered how i'd feel if I were Jewish.

It's like the Visigoths calling the ancient Greeks Barbarians.

Who knows, rockfish! You being Jewish may makes your (should you marry Josh) future in-laws lay off you. I know many members who think you already mormon, as their patriarchical blessings 'reveal' which tribe they belong to, (usually to the Tribe of Joseph or Mannasseh for some odd reason) Did I just say odd? Study church history, especially what goes on in their temples, which suppose to follow the pattern of the jewish temples and discuss that with your boyfriend. I took my jewish friend to te open house of the Chicago temple and he asked me where did the mormons ever got the notion that this was build after the pattern of Solomon's temple. Discuss with him the so-called Lamanite DNA, which proves the Indians weren't Jewish. Study the so-called Israelite/Mormon connection a bit and write to him about it. You can always come here with questions and there are fabolous websites about it.

rockfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (On a side note, I hate how Mormons call non
> Mormons 'gentiles.' My whole family is Jewish -
> and I believe we've got a good 3,000 years on them
> in the vocabulary department. To me, THEY'RE the
> gentiles)


HAPPY HANUKKAH!!! (what's left of it, anyway)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 12:45PM by mav.

Keep writing him but also go out.

It won't hurt for him to realize that there is a little competition on the scene and that you have other options.
Nothing turns off a man like a woman who just sits there and begs for his love.

Realize that it would be highy unusual for a trueblue Mormon not to try and convert a spouse.

Keep your options open and in 2 years you will be in a better position to evaluate which way to go.

"1. It would be a hassle to pack it in, make the calls, and come home."

That raised a red flag with you, as it should have. If it's a hassle for him to ditch his mission and to face his parents, imagine what a 'hassle' it will be for him to explain to his parents he's marrying a no-mo.

that is a tradition of inquiry; mormonism is very much a tradition of obedience to authority enforced by the group. Not loyalty to the group, but obedience before it.

I doubt you could stand it for a lifetime. To say nothing of what your children would be taught.

Inquiry is very much discouraged in the morg because of it leads the members away. Your boyfriend is in an atmosphere of extreme brainwashing, specifically designed to obliterate individuality and questioning. The blinders are not to be taken off.

You love Josh; therefore, you impute to him all the good qualities you value yourself and want him to have. He is not the independent thinker you think you see, because he followed right along into the mission home at the proper time.

An independent thinker is someone like my son, who left Utah County to go to another state for college, even when his girlfriend's family offered to pay for his mission. You can imagine the rage I felt at their interference in my family! His actions were congruent with his words and have continued to be.

Send Josh a copy of a small paperback called An Insider's View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer. Tuck it in with other goodies, so maybe it'll get past inspections, if needed. Palmer was a long time teacher in the morg and a darn good historian.

Josh's reaction to this book will tell you everything you need to know.

Run, rockfish, run. I promise the sea is full of fish.

I'll probably get slammed by everyone here, but if you want to "marry" him, I would recommend you accept his faith, and get baptized atleast a year before he returns. Then you could get married in the temple (which is what he will most likely want) soon after he returns. And I've have his Dad or brother baptize you so that you create a close bond with his family.

The chances of him wanting to marry you after his mission, if you are not a member, will be very slim indeed.

My biggest concern would be when the kids started coming along. Would you be okay with him taking them to church each week and having them become tbm? How would you feel if you were the only nevermo in the family? I've lived a long time and seen alot. Very,very seldom does it work to have one spouse lds and one spouse not.And it gets much harder when there are kids involved. I married my dh when I was 20. I left the church at 57-last year. He is more tbm than ever and it is hell.
And having children that won't speak to you because you left the morg is devastating. I have to live with my situation,but you don't. PLEASE don't marry the guy!!

While my story is my own, and everyone's experience is vastly different, let me just give you a quick overview.

I am a nevermo. While a high school freshman, I "fell in love with" a h.s. senior jackmormon. He was fun, rebelious, would drink with me, do all of the crazy teenage stuff. At that time, I knew I was surrounded by Mormons, but didn't really know what all the religion entailed, just knew it wasn't for me. We were having sex regularly, he never expressed a guilt for what we did. He must have decided that a mission wasn't for him and decided to join the military. Shortly after he left for bootcamp I realized I was 16 and pregnant. Not smart.

When he came home on leave, I told him and then we told our parents. Somewhere in the time he left and the time he came back his Mormon upbringing clicked on. Hardcore. I didn't want to abort my baby, wasn't willing to give it up for adoption like his parents pushed me to. My own mother and I were close to killing eachother and there was no way I could live with her. He was all of a sudden no longer willing to "live in sin" and refused to just live together and raise our child, said we had to be married. I felt backed into a corner without many choices. I know some would say that I made the wrong choice, and I'm ok with others thinking that. I have my daughter, who is a beautiful, smart, amazing 14 year old now, and could never picture a life without her. Yes, it has been hard and I maybe couldn't offer her the same things an older more established parent could, but I also wasn't the typical teen mom.

Unfortunatly, I didn't realize just what it meant to be a dyed in the wool, true blue Mormon. Granted, part of the issue was/is this guy's personality. He's a control freak who is never wrong. The crazyness of the Mormon religion only fueled his fire.

Both him and his family constantly pushed me to convert. To take the missionary discussions. To go to church. To read all their faith promoting crap. To take temple prep classes. I went to church with them to keep the peace. I was willing to learn about their religion. The more I learned, though, the more I was convinced that it was not only a crazy religion, it was also a fraud. I would try to discuss things with my husband, and the only response would be that "he didn't want to Bible bash with me." Ummm...ok.

Within minutes of being married (and mind you, I'm 31 now and was 16 then, so not THAT long ago) his father pulled him aside and said "just because you're married now, doesn't mean that all types of sex are ok". He actually told him that if he had been involved in oral sex prior, we were not to do that now. My then husband took those words very seriously and refused to give or take of that fun any more, with one exception that I may share at the end of my speil.

He was very serious about tithing. We were on welfare, food stamps, barely scraping by, and yet he paid that damn corporation first out of every check.

Once, he had been away for the weekend on military duty. At this point, I was 18. I rented a rated R movie for my enjoyment. Don't even know what it was. I hadn't returned it by the time he came home, and when he discovered the rating, he opened the front door and chucked it as hard as he could out into the snow, saying he wasn't going to allow that filth inside his house.

His need for control was so great, he became physically abusive with me, on several occasions. I could tell a few stories here, but there'd be no point. The fact is, he was horrible, and I needed to get the hell away. Just under 19 years old, with 2 small children, I decided I had to get the hell out. It was hard, but not as hard as being with that crazy mormon egomaniac. He and his parents and their friends/associates slandered my name all over our tiny Wyoming town. At the grocery store, his mother was heard several times telling how I was physically abusive to her baby boy. At the high school, her friend was heard several times stating how "sick" I was, and that my children needed to be taken from me.

Days after filed for divorce, I was in my home, he had moved out. I was having a dream where I was being given oral sex. In my dream/real life, my hand went down between my legs and I awoke when it came into contact with a head. HIS head! Between my legs! I freaked out. The only thing he could say..."I thought that was what you wanted!" OMG, no! Now I know this tidbit has nothing really to do with the topic at hand, it's just fun to throw in when complaining about the crazy.

Within 3 months of our divorce, he was twitterpated with some MollyMo and preparing for their temple wedding. The night before their trip to the temple, he told me that he had thoughts of killing me, and then killing himself, so that his parents would raise the kids. In his eyes, that was the only way to ensure that the kids would be brought up in the "right religion." He proceeded to marry this girl, who I hear is now saved in his phone as "My Eternal Companion". (My girls told me this after their last visit and I found it hilarious, had to pull the car over to the side of the road I was laughing so hard) They now have 5 more children, and are still on welfare, while I have managed, as a single parent, to work myself into a great career.

He has no qualms when it comes to "lying for the lord". He sees himself and his family as righteous and me as the evil sinner. He has made up horrible stories about me and taken them to police and lawyers and judges. He told other stories to LDS social workers and doctors and got them to write letters to the court to help his bid for custody. We played that game for 2 1/2 years, that's how long it took for the judge to realize what my ex was trying to do.

Fast forward to now. I have 2 amazing teen daughters. He sends them bizarre letters about how it's not ok to wear "cleavage showing or butt crack showing clothes" (they don't). He doesn't care that they go to a church of their choosing, it's simply not his church so it's no good. He doesn't care that they are advanced students and excel in school, it's not really all that important in the afterlife. He's never offered a "great job" when it comes to grades or any other "lifely" accomplishment.

I realize that I've completely traveled off course here, but all I am saying is be VERY VERY cautious. You two are going into this with incredibly different outlooks. You may not think they're so different at this time, but he's been preprogrammed. Prewired. Unless and until he discovers the fraud of mormonism there could be madness lurking behind every corner.

There's no happy future in a relationship with him. He'll probably come back a completely brainwashed Morgbot-just like I did. He won't marry you unless you convert, and if you do, you can live a miserable life as a Mormon wife, separated from your own Jewish-Gentile family. If he leaves the cult for you, which is highly unlikely immediately after he's done his two years for God, his family will shun the both of you, which will cause tension. One of you will have to lose your family, for which you may choose to blame the other.

So spare yourself the nightmare and run like hell now when you can cut your losses with less hurt.

Dear Rockfish:

I was in love with a (Jack) Mormon guy too. We were going to get married. I'm not religious at all and neither was he very much -- but his extended family was. Not only was I not Mormon, but I was the product inter-racial "sin" and had toasty tan skin indicative of the Mark of Cain. My tall, strong, romantic ruggedly handsome guy that I was madly in love with faded away and broke my heart.

My advice to you is this: The Mormon Cult ensnares all and consumes all. If he is committed (A) the LDS Church and (B) his TBM family he will never be fully committed to you. If my socially only / not-so-very Mormon guy couldn't deal with rejection from his family I don't know how your guy will. The blind mindlessness of the people makes me very sad but that's how it is.

Based on what you posted, 'Josh' strikes me as pretty typical for a young adult Latter-day Saint: kinda into Mormonism, but kinda not. A lot of them go through the motions because they're afraid of losing the approval of their Mormon parents, relatives, friends, leaders, etc. if they pull the plug on attending the chronically dishonest LDS Church.

My 20-year-old niece is like this. She watches TV programs and sees movies that stalwart Mormons would disapprove of, has a laid-back Mormon boyfriend (probably gets physical w/ him too, but doesn't go all the way, possibly), swears, etc. but doesn't muster the courage to tell her over-controlling, 'faithful' Mormon parents that she's done with the church. She's one foot in Mo-ism and the other out.

'Josh' needs to make up his mind about the LDS Church and religion. Either he's in or out. There is a TON of info. online exposing Mormonism for the religious fraud that it is (search for posts done by me w/ links on this board as well as on www.postmormon.org - I post there as CdnXMo).

You can send 'faith-disrupting' facts about Mormonism (there are SO many!) to 'Josh', but you cannot force him to think rationally about them and come to the wise conclusion that he needs to get out of the Morg (LDS Church). He must not do so for you; he needs to do it for himself, because he realizes that Mormonism is based on 'faith-promoting' propaganda and lies and he's willing to suffer the 'slings and arrows' of Mormons' disapproval in order to set himself free.

Until he musters the courage needed to liberate himself and takes action to get out of Mo-ism, he'll be partly-in, partly-out, or, as others have indicated, he'll go full-throttle into the church. The mission experience does that to a certain percentage of Mormon men. They shut off their rational mind relative to Mo-ism; only 'faithful' thinking and strict obedience is acceptable. If that happens, you'll never be 'good' enough as a non-member.

In March 1962, my 31-year-old atheist father married my 25-year-old mother, who wasn't involved in any church at the time, but had been religiously inclined since early adolescence. In early 1966, the Mormon missionaries (young elders) knocked on the door of my parents' apartment. My mother took to Mo-ism like a duck to water and started taking me (18 months old) and my older sister (age 3) to church.

My father researched Mormonism and learned that it was cultic. He tried to warn my mother to stay away from it, but she refused to look at the evidence. She became a manic-depressive, over-controlling religious addict.

My parents argued daily, often about Mormonism. My mother mindlessly handed over 10% of all the money she received, including grocery money, to the multi-billion-dollar LDS Church. She insisted that her children attend the 'one, true' LDS Church; we never had a say in the matter. The LDS Church and Mormons taught my two sisters (the younger one was born in 1970) and myself that people like our father were 'less' than 'faithful' Latter-day Saints, 'God's chosen people.'

"If only he would 'soften his heart' and join!", we were repeatedly told. LDS 'brainwashing' made the three of us regard our father as 'wrong'/'bad'. In truth, he was the clear-thinking parent, while our 'spiritual' mother was psychologically f*cked-up. Needless to say, our formative years were not very pleasant. There was a great deal of tension and stress at home.

In 1979, my mother took us kids and left our father. She wanted her priesthood-holder-trophy-husband. In 1984/5, I did a mission for the Mormon Church in an impoverished South American country; it was a hellish experience. In 1992, I discovered a non-fiction book, "The Mormon Murders", which revealed to me (for the first time) the true/actual history of Mormonism. I was floored! My father had been right all along! Mormonism was a crock! I resigned from the church in October of that year.

Tragically, much damage had been needlessly done over the years thanks to Mormonism and my LDS-'brainwashed' mother. I can only imagine how much hurt my father must have experienced, yet he never said a word of complaint. He died in August 1999. At his funeral, his best friend of 38 years, who was also a non-religious man, told me that my father had always loved my mother. Because she had refused to look at the facts that my father had tried to show her about Mo-ism 33 years earlier, she had caused a lot of unnecessary suffering.

You have your life ahead of you; it may or may not include 'Josh'. You cannot force him to make wise choices relative to cultic Mormonism and the manipulative LDS Church. You can, however, make decisions and take action that supports and protects your happiness and well-being.

Best wishes!