I've got a a TBM relative who grew up in California and is an excellent swimmer, who a few years back, refused to save my young child who started drowning at a family reunion at the beach, retorting, when he noticed my son in trouble: "He's not my responsibility!"

At the time, I was still a TBM. I was not there at that moment when my child started drowning, but two other TBM family members, who are actually afraid of the water and can't swim, were there and decided to grab my child and save him, despite their fears.

My TBM rellie doesn't understand why ever since that incident, I have not wanted to go over to his home with my kids for holiday dinners. He seems to have no recollection of this incident.

I brought it up once, about a couple of years after the incident (in an email), and got no reply. I may not have been very direct, though. I probably said something like "I'll admit I'm still upset over how you handled x's near drowning a few years ago..." No response. Stone cold silence.

I'm now wondering if I shouldn't have, or still should, very directly address it verbally. Because as a result of that incident, I don't want to go over to his and his wife's home (they are ultra-TBMs), as it sickens me to think that this family can put on a happy smiley face at Christmas and expect us to be in the mood for a holiday with them, when they haven't been able to even admit or apologize for their lack of concern or care for my kids.

The drowning incident was bad enough, but both the husband and wife who have generally avoided helping us when we've had needs during the past few years (since becoming exmo's)--yet every year they send us the annual holiday dinner invite, as though nothing's ever happened. I sent the email a few years back with the hopes that there might be even just a simple acknowledgement, to which I would have replied that I was hoping for an apology... but didn't get even that.

Lately, I've thought of calling them up, declining their most recent holiday invitation (as I'm sure I'd probably get a "Ar eyou coming over?""You're welcome to join us..") and then simply saying, "No thanks." (rather than making up another excuse). Then, when they say, "Why not?" simply stating, "You figure it out!" I guess that would just keeps this clueless nitwit guessing. What's a better approach?

"not his responsibility"? It is ALWAYS any DECENT human being's responsibility to act when a child is in danger...especially one they are related to...

I wouldn't fish for an apology. If one hasn't been forthcoming at this point, it NEVER will be. This man and his wife are extremely dillusional. They want to put on a facade, but refuse to be realistic about what being a true family really means.

I would eithr ignore their invitation completely, or just respond as you said..."no thank you", and "I'll leave that to you to figure out".

That's what I've been doing, politely declining, year after year.

Exasperated with all my declining, his wife finally emailed me expressing dismay that we are becoming "estranged" and should not because "family is so important."

To which I responded, well, in times past, you've both showed a lack of real interest in me and my children, so I really don't get the feeling we are important to you."

The response I got to that was a basic denial that she had never played a part in ignoring us etc (not true) and claiming that "I accept you as you are" (not true, never has been). This is one of my TBM siblings who has verbally chided me for quitting the cult, as did her spouse, and who has ignored my children's birthdays for the past several years--even though I continue to drop off small gifts for their children, in the wee hours.

This is also the same sibling who has refused my access to her children in person, unles they (parents) are also present--fearful that my exmo-ness will rub off on them. For example, their child was in a tennis tournament and I offered to go and cheer their child on, but they declined to give me the address and time purposely, so I could not go. I figure if they are going to do that, then I'm not going to give them access to my kids, either.

I say if they can't be genuine, then I don't want a relationship. But if they can be human, apologize and recognize normal boundaries, then great. Doesn't seem like that's likely to happen. At least, not based on my previous communication attempts.

So the easiest thing for me to do is just simply ignore their annual (fake) requests, which are an obvious attempt to show their kids that they are "nice" at least, once a year. I believe it's embarrassing to them to not have us show up year after year, when everyone else does. I won't give them that. But have wondered if there's anything else I could do to give them a possible crack at repairing the relationship damage.

You need to let that go. It's long over with and too far in the past to ever know what really happened.

It sounds like there is ample evidence that these aren't people you want to spend time with, so avoid them. Simply say you have other plans if it comes up.

I am left with the impression from your email that you spend way too much energy thinking about people you don't like (justifiably) and can't control.

That energy could be put to better use finding a new 'family' of friends you enjoy and can count on.

Ya know what, it comes up usually once a year, holiday time... when they extend their usual invitation, in a tone of voice that is very cheery and as though they are the best family we could ever possibly hope for.

That's why it lingers. Rest of the year, don't give it much thought but Xmas and Easter is when the invitations come out.

If this "person" is unwilling or unable to apologize or acknowledge his mistake, then it's best that you don't expose yourself or your family to him.

I agree. Time to let go and move on. If they haven't recognized their wrongdoing and apologized by now they never will.

A person who knowingly and purposely refuses to help save a drowning child is just scum, TBM or not.

If it's cathartic for you than I would tell them EXACTLY why you and your family wont be attending any more of their events. But seeing that you've already addressed it with the offending party with no response, don't expect one now. But maybe it will do you some good to get it off your chest.


I have an estranged relationship with DH's family because for the first half of our marriage I made a great deal of effort to attend family functions and send gifts on kids birthdays etc. His family never responded in kind when we had important events. They made no effort whatsoever to be a part of our lives. Not even a token effort.

Anyway, things came to a head when my MIL sent around a really racist email, which included my own mother who was VERY upset about it. I called her out on it and she claimed she didn't know it was racist (ya right).

Not that this is even close to not helping a drowning child, but after that incident I was DONE. No more cards, gifts, attending family events on DH's side. I completely went cold.

After I stopped my efforts it became very clear to my in-laws who was the one maintaining a relationship with them. Me and not DH.

After a year or so of not hearing from us they finally asked why. So I told them. But TBMs are a prideful bunch and admonished me to forgive them and that it's not good to hold grudges.

Unbelievable.

I realized they are just awful people and will not change. Once I let go of expecting any decency from them my anger went away. They just sort of exist to us now which is totally fine by me.

This is a bit strange.

Why do you think they "avoided helping" you when you had needs - and what makes you think they should have ????
It really is not their responsibility.

The near drowning story is even stranger.

Why weren't you there supervising your child????

Perhaps the incident did not quite happen the way you were told.

IF the kid was indeed drowning then yes, he should have stepped in. Most people would.

BUT if two non-swimmers were able to get your child out perhaps he was not drowning at all.
The story seems exaggerated.

The two family members who were there who did the "saving" are trustworthy. They reported their shock at the other family member's attitude to me, and said they knew, that regardless of the circumstance, it was the nearest adult's duty to step in and save a life.

They had no reason to lie or brag, and because of their height, compared to the small child, they were willing to brave the water. It wasn't in the midst of really deep high waves; it was a family beach and close to the water's edge. If you had some water safety training, you'd know that a child can drown in a very small amount of water

I apologized to them both after the incident because I realized I should not have left my kid's side, even for a very short errand--particularly near water. I had wrongly assumed that with that many adults around, he'd be fine. But was wrong.
I would never consider leaving my kids with anyone like that ever again.

At the time, I was not there due to running an errand. The reunion was going to last for several days, and as a solo parent, I desperately needed to run an errand without kids, and at the time, figured my very large extended family would be able to help me out for just a half hour or hour (I was present for most of the reunion but had one quick errand to run) . I learned from that experience not to try to leave my kids with anyone ever, while running an errand, and instead, found a great drop off service where I could drop my kids if needed--something that previously hadn't existed in my neighbourhood).

Yes, it was not their responsibility to care for my children throughout the entire activity or even through any of it. But, my main point was that when someone is drowning or near death, you stop whatever else you're doing, and save that person, or try to get help for that person.

What was most offensive to the two family members who did the saving, was the attitude of the person who refused. Yes, it wasn't his responsibility to babysit--but in my books and I suspect for most decent adults, it's never an option to not help someone who is obviously in need of help, particularly a child, period. If his kids were drowning next to me, there is no chance I would never have refused. I can't even fathom thinking that way.

You don't have to apologize for leaving your child's side; that attitude of "Well you took your eyes off him for a millisecond so it your fault there was a near tragedy!!!!!!!" is ludicrous.

A normal family is filled with caring adults whom a parent can trust absolutely with their children, in the parent's absence. That your relative turned out to be a nutball does not make you guilty of some kind of error in judgement in trusting him in the first place.

It would be very sad indeed if none of us would "never ever ever!!!!!!!!!" leave our child, even with aunts/uncles/grandparents.

Sorry for the rant, but that blame-the-negligent-parent attitude is one of my pet peeves.

Two complete non-swimmers were convinced that a child was in potential trouble. The one strong swimmer in the bunch wasn't convinced.

I wouldn't conclude that the non-swimmers had the correct view of things. I say this as a former certified lifeguard and swimming instructor (who has performed open water rescues and mouth-to-mouth resusitation.) Just because your relative expressed disgust with your lack of supervision (which was warranted under the circumstances,) doesn't mean that he wouldn't have gotten your kid out had the child gotten into serious trouble. When I was lifeguarding I spent a lot of time watching kids just on this edge of danger before I would make the decision to go in and fish them out. You watch, watch, watch, and most of the time they work themselves out of trouble, but occasionally not. That's when I would intervene.

The near universal commonality when young kids get into trouble on the water is that the parent isn't paying close enough attention. I would simultaneously watch the kids flirting with danger while their parents socialized, oblivious. Unreal.

Drowning is a strong word. It most likely wasn't warranted under the circumstances. Your unsupervised kid got into a spot of trouble. He was helped by family members. He may have needed the help right then and there, maybe not. The fact of the matter was *you were not there* to make the judgment. And to me, that is the biggest problem.

Your relative may or may not be a jerk. This one incident alone is not enough in my opinion to make that call.

was that you may have misunderstood the circumstances. In any case, I'd people who were there what their impressions were. I would comfort him and ask him for an explanation. He should know the basis for your avoidance.

That's what I was thinking. I do believe that this rellie must've been ticked that I took off and thought that it was irresponsible. I get that, and as mentioned, never ever did anything like that again. But still don't think that would justify ignoring a child's possible death.

I could try to address it one last time, and that would settle it, I guess. But my gut based on numerous other experiences with him is that he would not ever necessarily accept that it was wrong to have not responded to a child in need.I do feel that anything I say or do is considered suspect by him and his family, simply because I've since left Mormonism. So it's probably a waste of my breath. Oh well.

I have learned from this. I was too trusting of my family, but as mentioned, there are many other incidents (not quite as drastic) since then, that have showed me that their primary interest is in putting on airs vs sincere love or care. So have to just forget about it all.

They strike me as self-made assholes...

I mean I did learn lifesaving in scouting as part of getting my Eagle award in an LDS troop...

The double-bind the church puts you in with this one is you're supposed to use Christian tolerance for such individuals and celebrate and practice familial loyalty when it is clearly toxic and unwarranted...

Thanks for sharing your story; you're among friends...

What psychotic relatives you have.

I guess I just need to address it one final time just to put an end to the annual invitations. Or, I could just keep politely declining year after year.

I do think they would probably just argue that I've not been interested or involved in their lives. Because since quitting the cult, I've declined invitations to baptisms and church services during family reunions. But I figured they'd realize that if I left the fold, church would no longer be an appropriate inviation for me. Maybe not. I know some exmos here still go to church services and baptisms etc. but not all.

I find it very difficult to go near a Mormon church. I actually feel nausea. I have never said anything derogatory about Mormonism to them, and generally stopped talking to them after they called me to criticize my decision to quit as a grown woman in my 40s. I felt it was out of bounds, so only sent small gifts and cards on birthdays etc. but that's basically it. I don't get gifts or cards in return from them, only the annual holiday dinner invitations.

Well, time to get out there and FA LA LA LA LA with my own brood and friends. Thanks for listening!

Tell them by email or letter, very explicitly, what you told us about the near-drowning. Tell them also that you have been dismayed by his refusal to admit and apologize and say you have no desire to be in their company or in contact.
You won't get an apology but you will have had your say and your relationship will be out of the phony realm into an icy reality. To me, that would feel better.

If this sounds overdone, imagine if your child had actually drowned!

Thanks TS. Will probably do that.

I have heard from other TBM family members that they think I'm carrying a grudge.Well, maybe it is. But is it worse to carry such a grudge or to ignore my request for an acknowledgement or apology (which is what I did previously)?

I don't really view it as a grudge, so much as a desire to spend time only with people who actually have a good relationship with us, or people who are decent and whom I can trust etc.

My last attempt to explain it to another family member who d idn't understand the dynamics was that I am not interested in phony relationships, only genuinely caring ones... but that would likely go completely over their heads if I stated it that way.

They have "shown you" what kind of people they are. You have great clarity that these people are not the kind you want to associate with (be they related to you or not). You are allowing yourself to be trapped by your own mind.

I recommend you do not give them another thought or waste another ounce of energy in regards to them. When you do you are giving them power and control over you. Simply do not answer their calls and block or delete their emails without opening them. You choose to put focus on them.. Take back your life and your power. I wouldn't even bother to attend their funerals.

OK-The only reason you get an invitation is for them to "extend the olive branch to say "we tried", then blame you. GO THIS YEAR!!! YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXPRESS YOUR ANGER AT THE SELF RIGHTEOUS PRICK WHO WAS A COWARD!!! (OF COURSE EAT 1ST_YOU DESERVE TO GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT)_HAVE SOMEONE TAKE YOUR CHILD OUT OF THE ROOM< THEN LET HIM HAVE IT WITH BOTH BARELLS> THEN SMILE AND LOOK HIM STRAIGHT IN THE EYES AND SAY< "YOU ARE A WORTHLESS EXCUSE OF A MAN< AND A SORRY HUMAN BEING AT THAT".

I would be a little more direct with them. They seem to be reaching out to you, but you're not telling them exactly why you're not responding.

Perhaps you could call and tell them that you're still very hurt by the incident and don't think you'll every get over it without an apology from them and see what they say. If they offer one, then consider forgiving them. If they don't, then you can tell them to please stop the invites. It doesn't have to be hostile, just matter of fact.

I'd figure out why it still bothers you.And whatever the real reason is, I'd tell them that the next time they ask.

So why does it really bother you? Get to the very bottom of it in your own mind. There is something that makes it still bother you.

For me (but doesn't have to be the same for you) I would be pissed that he didn't help, and I'd feel hurt that my child wasn't important enough for him, nor were you. But that might not keep me away for years.

What might keep me away was knowing that our safety isn't a concern. He's unreliable. I might not want to entrust my families well being in the home of such a person. It's less about what he did years ago in one event, and more about the importance he puts on your family, and not enough evidence to show that it has changed.

Sometimes we try to make people say certain things, but if we are listening, they are saying it. By not rescuing your child, he was saying, "I don't care about your family." By not answering your email, he was saying, I don't care about your family. By knowing that you aren't wanting to come, and what the reason is, but continuing to invite you as though that knowledge doesn't exist, he's saying that he doesn't care about you.

You are trying to punish him, and get him to say verbally that he has changed, and now he does care... Or you are trying to make him to admit that he doesn't care.

There are more ways to communicate than verbally saying one of those sentences. He's been communicating the whole time. You just need to listen, and stop trying to make him communicate the exact way you would like to hear it, and just listen to what he has been saying.

I wouldn't go to his house because he has demonstrated that he doesn't care. Why does a person keep inviting someone that they don't care about? To be passive aggressive? To be holier than thou? To prove something to someone else? To get rid of cognitive dissonance?

Who knows, but he's not inviting you because he cares about you. I wouldn't go either, but I'd be clear to myself why it is I'm not going.

And once you have enough evidence of something, you don't need to keep confirming it. You don't need to make someone keep showing that they don't care. If they become apologetic and change their ways, you will see that; it would be looking for something positive. There is no need to keep looking for something negative though, you already have that evidence.

The thought of someone just shrugging off the site of a child drowning with a flippant justification to do NOTHING to save him makes me sick. I really don't blame you for avoiding these people. You are way more polite about it than I would be. I would have told the guy exactly what I thought about him.

Yeah, DNA, I guess what really bugs me about their annual invites is the phoneyness of it.

They don't email or call in a normal way throughout the year, or show any true care or concern, but at Xmas, and Thanksgiving, send out an invitation, thinking that we'll just drop what we're doing and come for a holiday dinner, despite all of their past behaviours which show not only insensitivity but lack of caring.

My guess it's a lame fellowshipping attempt which they can try to demonstrate to their kids, who still live at home with them, that they are being good Mormons by inviting us to a meal. I can see through it and am not going to be a party to that.