I ask because I live in a town in Utah that's about 48% Mormon. Any time I hear about a business deal, it seems the Mormons screwed someone, esp. in real estate. The on-going motto here when dealing with a Mormon is "watch your back." At first, when I moved here about 15 years ago, I thought the non-mos were really prejudiced. But the more stories I heard, the more I wondered.

I have lived around some seemingly nice salt-of-the earth Mormons and never had problems, but never had any business dealings with any.

Thoughts?

The more they can take from you the more they can give to the lord.

OK, I read Lying for the Lord. basically, it seems that lying for the Church is OK. So this includes biz deals since you'll have more tithes to pay? Is it really a thing that permeates everything they do? Why not lie to the bish about everything you did bad - wait, that's dishonest...??? Yikes, congnitive dissonance...

So, it seems like anytime I do anything involving money (except things like buying groceries and gas) I should find out if I'm dealing with a Mormon. How can I know?

So how can I tell if someone is Mormon before I do business with them?

YES! Even if it is an even split the ones who are crooked are SO crooked that it makes the answer a de facto Yes anyway!

YES,YES,and YES!!

Most Mormons I know are pretty honest, decent people. There are bad eggs in every group. I have said before that there are two types of people in the church: the users and the used.

The users are those who understand how the game is played and work the LDS system for personal benefit (money, power, whatever). The used, on the other hand, are those people who genuinely believe in the church and would give everything they have for the kingdom. It's their genuine faith and trust that allows the users to operate.

I'd say the users are a small minority, but without them the church would not be what it is.

That doesn't sound cynical, does it? ;-)

It's my experience that mormons have the same bad-eggs per capita as the rest of the population. They're just under a lot more pressure to convey the "wholesome" image.

...like claiming to KNOW the church is true, or not telling the whole truth about what they do know, or pretending to be happy when they aren't, or acting like your friend when they aren't, or not being genuine in order to avoid confrontation. These things happen in all tight groups -- families, for example, or places of work. But Mormonism has that extra pressure to appear good and kind that breeds fakery.

And then there's the whole matter of self-deception. But that might fall within the George Costanza Rule: It's not a lie if you really believe it.

+1 replying to Philip

that Mormons are disproportionately dishonest, especially considering the premium they outwardly put on honesty. I think there are several reasons for this, including:

1. A lot of Mormons understand the church is a con and that their "fellow believers" are, by and large, gullible.

2. The importance of material wealth in Mormon culture and its corollary - the importance of appearing to be wealthy.

3. The tendency of many Mormons to consider non-Mormons and outsiders to be second-rate and unworthy of respect.

4. The church's justification of its dishonesty trickles down to members' justification of their own dishonesty in their personal dealings.

5. The Mormon cultural tendency to view everything as a zero sum game.

6. A Mormon cultural tendency toward short-sightedness.


I know A LOT of Mormons. Some are extremely honest, and many are generally honest. But there is a very significant segment that seems to be outrageously dishonest.

I'm not sure... but I once in Pleasant Grove, Utah had the second counselor of the bishopric say to me "but I'm the second couselor" When confronting him about clipping my grandparents fence and parking his boat in their acre lot because he didn't have enough room in his driveway for it. His backdoor faced my grandparents empty farm field and he decided noone would know or notice if he parked his boat there. Which conveniently his driveway ended right on the fence line so it was easy to clip the fence and just back his boat in.
Then he also had the gaul to say "but it isn't being used for anything"... which made me even more mad because he just assumed since he was the second counselor and we were in his ward that he didn't have to ask permission and that since he was our "leader" we would just be good sheeple and say "Well thank you for putting our land to good use and clipping our fence for purposes that suit your needs."

After that is when I would have smiled and told him to have a nice day. The next day he would find the fence mended and the boat gone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2011 04:25PM by luckychucky.

All Mormons lie some of the time but not all mormons lie all of the time. What is and is'nt honest can be clouded very easily when you believe in things like talking snakes, Jewish indians, angels with flaming swords and golden plates that have gone up to heaven.

The problem that the dishonest ones try to hide behind the whole "I'm a mormon, I'm honest".

One example: A friend bought some real estate and the sellers told him the water rights came with it. He checked, and yes, they did, but while the property was in escrow the sellers (Mormons) transferred the rights to a relative. He could've sued (I would've), but chose not to, since the sellers were related to the judge.

As for hiding behind I'm a Mormon, I'm honest, no Mormon in his/her right mind would do that if they had any idea of how others perceive them. They'd say they're Buddhists or something.

Honesty means never lie to the Priesthood.

Never say anything that gives a bad impression of the church, even if you have to lie or deliberately withhold the truth.

These two absolutes spill over into everyday life and cause all kinds of difficulty. Not that Mormons are inherently dishonest, it's just that if it is okay to lie for the Lord, then it is okay to lie for your own self interests, and ultimately to cheat your neighbor.

YES.

...about people that cannot understand there's a line between faith and knowledge, "love" and stalking. These people are lying to themselves most of the time (how else could you ever believe such a bunch of nonsense as mormonism in the first place?) There's no surprise when some of that deciet spills over inte the rest of their lives.

1) their whole belief system isn't based on truth but on what makes them feel good = is good. That's not a vote of confidence that they are honest

2) from personal experience, I have no problem saying that the majority of Mormons I know have no problem lying about something without bothering to check out the facts. This is also not a vote of confidence in their honesty.

So I wouldn't trust one but I realize that there are some Mormons who might prove my general distrust to be wrong.

I think the LDS church creates an impossibly high standard for its members to live up to. Then I think the LDS puts so much pressure on people to conform to those high standards that most people resort to telling lies to avoid dealing with the consequences. Once someone starts telling lies to avoid the consequences, then they are not very willing to tell on others doing the same for fear of being outed themselves.

So, the LDS not only creates an environment where people feel they need to lie in order to survive, they create an environment where people are willing to overlook many lies.

In short, they create a culture were lies are a way of life.

Not being from a Mormon area or evolved long with the Mormon church, I was never really exposed to the LDS culture of lies.

Then I came to this board, a few weeks before I moved to Utah, and I was astounded at how easily and how many people here would recommend telling lies to loved ones. Then when I moved to Utah I found that Mormons lived in a culture of lies and understood.

Like I said I don't know if mormons are all dishonest but I don't think I was a dishonest mormon... or dishonest ever.

But if all are dishonest then does becoming an exmormon automatically make you more honest?

I was not out to screw everyone out of something when I was mormon. I don't think being mormon makes you more prone to being a crook.

Being in a position of authority has actually been proven in many studies that some take advantage of their power. Like in the Stanford Prison experiment... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Which would mean that they are not saying all Mormons dishonest. You can relax now, this was not about you personally.

Thanks MJ for letting me know I can relax.... Now that I'm not mormon anymore I'm less dishonest than I used to be when I was mormon... shew...

My experience and observation is that SOME Mormons (as well as other people) do not live up to the business standards I expected of them. Expectations is the operative word.
Some people are shifty, shoddy, deceptive and it has nothing to do with their religion.

Typically, there is a level of "playing it close to the chest" with Mormons in general. They are copying the same business plan of the church at the top level: not releasing important financial records as it is information they don't think the members need to know!

So, you take your chances in business with anyone.

But the church was founded on and perpetuated by dishonesty. It runs deep and is part of its fabric. So I think that they allow it to be a part of their lives. The church is flim-flam, and Mormons are famous for doing flim-flam with their different kinds of tax fraud, their multi-level marketing schemes, etc. It's particularly noticeable whenever someone like Scott Trotter comes out and makes some blatantly untrue statement to the press to hastily cover up some blunder by the church, and the members take it with a wink and a nod. They believe that it's justified in order to protect the church. As winecountrygirl notes above, it used to actually be called "lying for the Lord." Maybe it was John Taylor who dubbed it that. I can't remember. But Mormon leadership has always believed it necessary, but aren't so gutsy as to say so in more modern times.

i heard about a guy who stole millions in a ponzi scheme and paid tithing on it. tscc was ordered to pay back the tithing but i'm not sure if they did it or not.

My dad always said if a person comes up from Utah and says,"Brother I have a business proposition for you!" you grab your wallet and run! My dad was a TBM and a member his whole life but he knew better than to trust a Mormon in business. All his business partners were not Mormons.

The Mormon church put such high expectations and demands on it's members, it's impossible to live up to them. The constant probing and interviewing pressures people to lie. After years of this it becomes a habit.

Also, there is a naive trust members have with other members. Add a culture of group trust amongst liars and there lies the problem.

They are to themselves...

Well shocking here but very true story;

I knew a family that lived in the Davis County and the family had a business raising fruit trees and selling the produce to stores all over the West, Smiths, Safeway’s etc. and other small stores all over Davis, Salt Lake County in the late 60’s. This was the largest fruit farm in Utah at this time. ( Lots of Apples, Cherries, Plums, Peaches, and others. )

One person who had fruit trees too, and was a member of the church, a Bishop at this time. His farm was not that big, but was not getting any business and was running out of money. He lived almost by my friend, well or you can say up the road for a few miles. He was selling his produce to LDS for canning and some other stores. All of the land that the two families lived is owed by the LDS church. My friend is not active in the church during this time, and was leasing the land for his farm and house, and 4 to 5 buildings for boxing and packing. The Bishop was so mad and jealous; he had water rights to the farms and the told the canal company to lock up the gates to my friends fields which had miles of fruit trees. He then told all of the companies not to buy from my friend, this guy was very evil, and he was a Bishop!

In the end my friend lost everything; his house, his farm, because LDS wanted to expire the lease and take the land back, because the Bishop had connections way up in the church. Half of the fruit trees died, and his wife died in a few years with stress, just because one person in the church who was a Bishop, was jealous!!!!! That Bishop has one of the biggest farms in UTAH; He moved it to another location. And now the LDS church uses he’s produce for the BISHOP store house, duh how did you think they got the name.

In my experience, no. But I'm a banker, so factor that in.

Ron

Mormons learn to be dishonest with themselves. In order to survive, they have to hide their emotions, thoughts, sexual proclivities, etc. from themselves. Hiding from yourself sets up a habit that extends to all levels of life. You end up lying out of habit in order to support all kinds of false fronts.

The other habit that goes along with this is honing the skill of excusing one's lies, of explaining them away. Every mormon is a mopologist, even if the only apologetics in which they are engaging is the apologetics applied to their own actions or thoughts.

When I freelanced I was ripped off several times. But only by Mormons. And I really don't know many Mormons...

Good mormons are taught to be manipulators.

1. Because the system is set up as a series of hurdles subjective to the whim of penishood, children are taught that symbols matter more than substance.

2. Missions and every member a missionary--make friends to convert, not for friendship. Home & visit teach for points, not meaning.

3. You have to pretend to have a testimony to be acceptable. Everyone has doubts, but you can't really share it.

And so on.

Manipulating and misleading is at the heart of it. The truly honest are those that can look at it and recognize it's crap. They leave, usually.

I was in business for myself for many years,,so I learned not trust anybody. However I found that dealing with some mormons was a lint-picking,,arguing process to try to get more out of me than was contracted for,, or a reason to take something off the bill. I learned to be very direct and outlined what I was going to do,,and not do.