I read a lot of stories here about men who turned away from the church and/or went apostate and how they had to deal with family and wives afterwards. There are many stories about men who consequently got divorced or who successfully and over time, were able to make their spouses understand their point of view and whose marriages ultimately survived.

What about women who "turned" first? I am in this precarious position. And I think it's harder for women in this position because we've been taught to view our preisthood holders with respect and to defer to their opinions and teachings. And also because our husbands have always been taught to maintain spiritual leadership in their homes. Maybe they're a little less likely to listen to our explanations of church falsehood than the other way around?

Anyone have advice or stories to share? how many of you ladies out there were able to persuade your husbands to go apostate and how many men went apostate after your wives? Thank you.

This is an overview and a little background from some prior posts.

Everyone's situation is different. It requires compromise, negotiation, some things that are not always easy to do.

I recognized, early on, that I needed to accept that we both have rights.
There is a right that we often forget. :-)
The right to believe in Mormonism.
That comes into play when one partner changes their mind about their beliefs in the LDS Church's claims and the other holds onto them.

I was a convert as a young adult woman--Mormon for over three decades--certainly,if anyone understood that, I would! As a young adult convert, it was my "adopted tribe." I adjusted to the culture shock, especially when we landed in Utah in Wymount Terrace Married Student Housing in 1963. :-) It wasn't easy, but I made it work, including trying to find work. Besides, I am a bulldog. I have a tenacious personality. I will do the work to find a way for the best outcome!

When I could no longer accept or believe the claims, (another story for another time), I had a big dilemma: how do we handle that in our marriage? I was done. Through. Not going to be a Mormon anymore. I needed to tell my husband, and interestingly, he accepted it and asked what I needed from him. I told him I needed him to live the 11th Article of Faith and he said he would, and he has. He had some warning. He knew I was not content with many things in the LDS Church for some time.

(11th Article of Faith: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. )

Also, it seemed reasonable to "take turns" about a few things. We had done it his way for over 30 years, now he could do it my way, about a few things. And we have! :-) We had some rough spots about that, but we worked them out.

I completely stopped attending the LDS Church in my late 50's, sometime in 1998 after some traumatic events. The last one was The Man in the Restroom story. That was the impetus for figuring out "what is wrong with this picture" and lead to months of research and study, much on line and from books and from a family member doing the same thing. A few years later, my husband retired. I had retired earlier from my last business that I owned. Later, I resigned my membership, officially in 2002.

One Big Lesson I needed to learn,(after making a big mess):
just because I changed my mind, that is no guarantee my spouse will,or anyone else for that matter.

And why would he? Initially, I had the expectation that if I changed my mind, everyone else would. Ahh...not so fast, it does not work that way. Everyone else (LDS folks I knew) wasn't even interested in what I had to say! In fact, they thought I had lost my mind or at a minimum been offended. Well, sure, I would say, if everyone that had ever been offended didn't come to church, there would be no one there! :-) But that was not the reason I left. The claims --that wild whopper that whipper snapper Joseph Smith told about golden plates and angels, etc.

I am 100% certain that there is no way my believing husband of over seven decades will change his mind about his beliefs in Mormonism. I used to think it was just a matter of some information, or hey, look what I found, did you know this, but I did not take into consideration the immense power of the spiritual witness and the power of the belief by faith. That was a wall I could not surmount. And, believe me, I tried.
The power of the spiritual witness is at the core of a testimony.

What I initially failed to take into account, was the power of that belief by faith that others have, that is paramount in Christianity in general, as I well know, coming from a long line of Christian ministers. Nothing new there. They didn't change their faith, or change their mind either. Still haven't.

Well. ....What to do?
Hmmm..... I needed to set some priorities and make a decision that would have the best possible outcome and pay attention to some basic facts of life: nobody can change anybody else. I had to sit with that for a long time to finally "get it." I have a "fix-it" personality. I was sure, initially, that I just needed to change my tactics. Then I needed to understand that it was not within my power and to let it go.

I had to do the work to let go of the emotional attachment to the expectation (a little Buddhism helped me with this), and that I did not have the power to change another person. That was a biggie! My observation is that few people in this life ever "get" that one! :-)
Did I want to be one of those folks that hang onto the emotional attachment to negativity: anger, hate, bitterness, resentment, disdain, etc? NOPE. Not me. I don't like being treated: less-than, or stupid, dumb, or not OK especially because of my beliefs. Why would I want to do that to someone else?

I have the kind of mind that sees: The Big Picture, takes an Objective View as much as possible. I know the power of negativity on the whole person: mentally, and physically. I determined to keep my self respect, and self confidence in top shape and not fall into thinking patterns that would sabotage my process.

Then I needed to ask myself:
Can I make peace with that?
Can I let it go?
Can I leave it alone and not make it an issue? (This was very hard, initially!) Can I just be quiet about it and not harp on it to people who don't give a rats arse?

Then I learned something that took me a lot of years to finally "get" -- it's only an issue if I make it one! That's true about almost everything in a marriage relationship.

Ahh... I had options -- and lots of them. I didn't have to make my decision into more than it was -- nor don't make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Maybe, sometimes, people just give in. They can't out-talk or out-fight their partner, they are worn down, exhausted, can't fight anymore, so they acquiesce and go along to get along! But did I want that? Clearly -- no.

Maybe, just maybe, the marriage and that investment of love, time, family, financial, emotional issues, etc. is much, much, much more important that a difference of opinion about some beliefs !
Could I make peace with that? You bet I could! Probably helped a lot that I was a convert and had a couple of decades of life prior to Mormonism that was part of who I was also.

I realized early on that I needed to give myself permission to do the work to find my own path to inner happiness and peace. And, that is what happened, little by little. Making Peace with it all was not a conscious goal, it was the result of the process of rewriting thinking scripts left over from Mormonism, (another post with a long list!) seeing The Big Picture and creating my new World View, all the while protecting my self respect, self confidence, etc. I was OK all along. Making peace with my life, all of it was the natural result.

That meant I was learning to process the past, let it go and focus on living in the Now. It's not easy;my mind, like most folks, likes to go back and rework things, repeat the past in my head, fix what is long gone. But did I need that? NOPE! Sure didn't. That included making peace with my life as a Mormon and making peace with my life as a former Mormon. That meant I needed to understand something about the past: there were no: wouldas, shouldas, couldas, what if's. (Another big subject)

It required that I do the work to change my thinking. Change my thoughts. It's only a thought. I was the one to change my attitude and change my focus. Just thinking about it was overwhelming.

So, I had to practice some skills. They were new ones. I did some study, research, read a bunch of books, took classes and found out what I needed to do for a positive outcome while making major changes in my World View.

I needed to learn the skills of focusing on today, having an attitude of gratitude. I needed to learn to be more skeptical, use critical thinking skills, less gullible; be more objective, think in terms of the Big Picture, think about what I wanted to accept and believe from any source. No more: go along to get along, agree just because someone else is doing it, or believes it, or suggested I do it. I took every idea that came into my head, apart and analyzed it.

More conclusions:
Some things are just not worth fighting or arguing about for or against.
We can't all be the same.
We can't all believe the same things.
We can't be everything to anyone all the time.
AND:
What did I want for myself and my family: I wanted everything that was within my power. Next I had to figure out what was within my power and what was not.

I decided: I am not going to give up anything; not one iota of my investment in my family, home, marriage because I changed my mind about my beliefs in Mormonism. We are people first. Beliefs second. Once I set that priority and kept it firmly planted in my mind, life started to flow peacefully. It was like opening up a damn that I had constructed within myself. When I let go, things began to flow much more smoothly.

The result: we have a peaceful life for the most part; he is a believer and I am not. He has his beliefs, and I have mine. Do they agree all the time. Absolutely not. Why would we? Is it OK to argue, and make a fuss? Sure it is. We can do that. We can be passionate about our differences. We have agreed to disagree. And, why not? It's OK. We can do that, no matter what the issue is.

I hope to get to 50 plus years of marriage in Aug of 2012, and not let something as insignificant as a difference of opinion about religiously based claims and belief by faith divide us or our family! Do we have to work on it? Of course we do!

So.... life goes on and on and on.
We make the best with what we have.
The older we get, the more changes and health issues we face. Some very scary ones! It's a struggle, but it's always worth it.

We play the cards we are dealt. Not everyone gets the same cards!

I chose well. My spouse is a good man. And, I am told, those are hard to find! :-)

It is not always easy, or smooth sailing, but with a little effort and a positive attitude it is so much easier! Resentments and anger melt away in the face of a positive attitude and laughter. Laughter really is the Best Medicine.

There was no room for negative self talk, or negative energy either. I knew I was OK. I knew I could do anything I set my mind to. I have to slap myself around some times and knock some sense into my head...again, and again....and admit my errors, take responsibility, make amends, and start over, dozens of times, but the more I stay on course, stay focused on what I really wanted for myself and my family, the easier it becomes.

Appreciation is an amazing power supply. It's like magic. Practically nobody can resist it! :-) It's surprising how far a simple compliment will go! A -- thank you!
Just walk down the street or drive your car with a smile on your face !
Say something to get a laugh from someone. They won't forget you. It will break down barriers and open doors.

I have learned that life is best lived with a sense of humor. A lot of laughter every day. I'm so convinced of the health benefits of laughter (well documented) it ought to be prescribed by doctors! :-)

With what years I have left, I have given myself permission to get to the laughter, find the fun and enjoy my life. A smile and laughter is contagious! Practically nobody can resist that either!

Difference of opinions, in the long run of a very long life with good people are really not that important! ahh... What a relief to know it's OK to let go, let it be, don't let the past mess up my present....... and just ....enjoy today!

Love is the greatest power!

[These are my observations and conclusions. They are subject to change as I receive "further light and knowledge"!-]

Thank you for the reply SusieQ. I will have to keep reminding myself that I cannot change him. The thing is, he has a stronger personality than I do and I am afraid I'm the one who will get changed. There are church-related things I don't want to do right now and the pressure in on.
We will have to learn to disagree and deal with it. Thanks again.

life the 11th Article of Faith. If they would just live that one, if nothing else, a lot of families would not end up in divorce putting children through that mess.

One simple thing. RESPECT other people's RIGHTS to their beliefs, and be decent about it. NO ultimatums either.

Stop playing: It's my way or the highway.

Since when did a difference of opinion over religion over rule the RIGHT to TWO parents who love each other and look out for the best interest of their children.

What a mess people make when they put their selfish demands over everyone else.

After about 7 years of marriage, wife told husband that she was done, didn't believe and didn't want to go anymore.

He said that he needed to think about it and make peace with it.

For about 8 weeks, he wouldn't speak or look at her. Finally he went to her and said that he was ok with her unbelief.

She said too late. She was done at that point after him not even acknowledging her existence for about two months.

They split, and she grieved but is much happier now.

He is devastated, and now is trying to put the "pieces" back together for another shot at "normal" Mormon life.

I don't know if this means anything for you, but you axed for stories. And I have stories.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2011 02:46PM by raptorjesus.

Wish I had statistics to back up my gut feeling here:

Most of the complaints about a TBM spouse not tolerating leaving are from men. TBM women who leave usually (it seems by reports here and at postmo) have a complacent or tolerating spouse. Rarely does a man divorce a woman who leaves, as long as the other aspects of the marriage work.

I think it is harder the other way because often a TBM woman feels that her security cart is tossed over by a husband leaving. It's as bad or worse than infidelity. Divorce in these cases is quite common.

Also, it seems that many men use logic over feeling for the basis of testimony. Dispelling this is easier with facts and true history. If you live outside UT, non-mo friendships and good fun Sunday activities will ease a man out of wanting to go to church.

It may be harder in UT if he has a support system and controlling family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2011 02:54PM by Jesus Smith.

Jesus Smith - I hope you are right! Good point about the logic over emotion thing. But I know that there is no accounting for the power of blind faith. For awhile we were sort of fringe and I was okay with that. He's getting more immersed lately which I find frightening. I am not looking forward to expressing myself fully on the subject, but he knows I have doubts. Thank you again for your reply.

Kammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not looking
> forward to expressing myself fully on the subject,
> but he knows I have doubts.

Men are also problem solvers. Especially for the one they want to impress and have love them. Very tactfully, lovingly, ask him to solve your dilemma. Give him a complex question about the church that will require him to ask you questions or (more preferably) do research on his own to get you answers. Don't argue with him about the answers he gives or get into the details. Just ask the next question of the same issue. Always have a lot of questions on the same subject. A good one is the book of abraham issue. Express that you have a concern that if Joe couldn't translate regular egyptian, how can we trust his translation of what he called "reformed egyptian".

This might sound a little manipulative, which I am normally against, but the truth is, you do want answers and hope you both learn and agree on the answers. And you are being honest about your concerns through giving him the questions rather than the answers.

Just a thought.

That's a great idea JS. He won't think I'm attacking if I'm calmly asking questions in order to reaffirm my faith. and a great way to get the conversation started. Thank you. I am going to try this. I really appreciate the help.

... that no person, be it child, spouse, parent, whatever, is worth the price of having to sacrifice your personal happiness.

No religion is worth that either.

Timothy

I discovered the truth about the church while teaching relief society and my husband was elders quorum president. I spent a year privately going through every aspect of it and finally decided I was done. I Wish I had talked to my spouse sooner but we worked through it. I know others who were able to extract their whole family from the church by taking it really slow and allowing the other person to read "Insiders guide to Mormonism" and such so that the person could make up their own mind.

At the heart of my marriage I knew my husband respected me and would listen to me even if he didn't agree. It was a hard few years but I really worked hard to show him how important the marriage was to me. We have been out for 7 years and I am forever grateful I found my way out of the church. For me it was possible to get my spouse out and save my marriage. That being said, It was rocky for while. Through the process, we rebuilt our marriage and came together stronger.

In the beginning I had to accept that He was allowed to have his own opinions. The hardest part as a woman was giving myself permission to grieve the church and move on even if it meant losing him.

Best Wishes on a challenging road ahead. One that I hope leads you to peace.

Thank you all for the stories and replies. I will just take it slow and see what happens. I appreciate your honesty and advice.

I was BIC and he converted just before we got married although his parents were jack-mo and several of his 8 siblings are/were TBM.

As I watch other couples go through the reality tunnel, I have made some observation. They may not be totally accurate, just my own POV, so please take this with a grain of salt.

The marriages I see hanging on are those that were not based primarily on religious compatibility. My dh and I were best friends and religion was just icing on the cake.

My dh's brother, OTOH, married a girl he has little in common with outside the church.
He was a convert, late to marry, and not an RM so he selected from the ever dwindling pool of singles ward 'sweet spirits'.

I have no doubt that if he were to have questions about the church she would be on the 1st plane back to her parents with kids in tow.

You have to be with someone who loves you more than they love the church. If you are just an interchangeable cog in a mo-family window display then you may want to shop for a good divorce lawyer now.

If, on the other hand, you are the love of his life with a relationship built on respect and friendship, then, with a lot of love, and maybe a little temptation (victoria secret vs beehive clothing) you will proly be outside some Sunday morning sipping coffee on the porch in matching silk robes by this time next year (feel free to insert your own ideal ex-mo imagery).

I hope that helps, if not I hope someone else's advice provides the guidance you need.

Either way, best of luck to you. Many of us have been where you are now and come through it as better, happier people. With or without our spouse.

p.s. my ex-mo imagery: Sunday morning brunch with mimosas :) But matching silk robes and coffee on front porch pretty good too. Thanks again.

You give me hope Gullibles Travels. We didn't meet in church. He was divorced and inactive when we met and had decided never to marry again. He was (and still is, I think) more interested in surfing than church. We dated for awhile during which time I converted. He was BIC but I was raised in a completely different religion.
I am not willing to sacrifice my marriage yet. Thank you for the response.

I married Linda when I was 25 and she was 21. Her parents were age 39 they had a religiously mixed marriage. Marilyn was an active Mormon, George never went to church. On Sundays when Marilyn was in a church meeting, George either went fishing or he worked on various hobbies at home.

They owned a nice travel trailer and on summer weekends they usually went camping in their trailer. On those weekends Marilyn did not attend any church meeting. George drank beer and hard liquor, both at home and on the camping weekends. Marilyn did not have a problem with that.

Their marriage was based on love and respect, and Marilyn treated George like he was the most important thing in her life. She never let the church become an issue in their marriage.

I remember going to their 50th wedding anniversary celebration and Marilyn and George still had a solid loving marriage. They showed me that when two people put their marriage first, then a difference in religious views does not need to be an issue that threatens the marriage.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2011 04:12PM by saviorself.