As background, my spouse is TBM but does not enjoy church and has recently been complaining a lot about it. Part of me is sad at how she is treated or ignored at church, but part of me rejoices because she is beginning to see the church for what it really is. We go a couple of times a month now, more because of her calling than anything else or out of some sense of duty deeply instilled in her.

In other words, progress is being made and I am able to open up with her more about my frustration with all aspects of the church. In fact, I even read her some responses I received to my post on chapel cleaning assignments. She agreed with mammy of the posts and for the first time I was able to mention that there are a lot of people like me out there that struggle with these church issues(I didn't tell her the name of the site) and they turn to this forum for support.

Anyways, while progress is being made and she's become much more accepting of my views, there is one subject area I'm not sure she will be open minded to: the word of wisdom. Go figure. Mormons can do all sorts of things that hurt others and are contrary to church teachings and get a pass. But do something harmless like drink a late or mocha and you rank right up their with satan in wickedness.

I don't have an issue with coffee or alcohol in moderation and have read up on the many health benefits associated with thir use. While alcohol is a great social lubricant in my line of work, I can understand my wife's concern over it. Coffee, on the other hand, doesn't have any connection with drunkenness.

So my question is, how can I approach her about my desire to partake in these substances? Yeah, I know all about the historical development within the church and that Joseph drank wine and Brother Brigham ran breweries. Been there, tried that, doesn't work.

Did you start drinking in secret? Did you suddenly just buy a wine in front of her? Do you just reserve things for business trips? Sure, honesty is important, but do I need my wife' s permission to enjoy an occasional coffee or a beer with a business associate? How did you deal with these issues when both spouses aren't yet on the same page?

I'd want to understand better why she feel this way. It's all about fear..Understand her fears and do what you can to ease them.

Every Member a Janitor Wrote:
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> She agreed with mammy of the posts

Sorry, I don't have any advice except being afraid of coffee and booze is really stupid, and no you don't need her permission.

EMAJ:

I've been where you are at right now. Drinking and the garmies were the last to go for my DH. Even though we had quit going to church for some time, my DH still held on to the belief that the only reason to drink is to get drunk - and that coffee is bad. I disagreed but respected his opinion and did not drink or buy alcohol - any of that jazz. But I DID keep an open line of communication with him about this (and other) issues.

One day our kids went to visit their grandparents for a few days. We were driving home and he said "You know, we should just go buy some beer and try it out." (!!!!) I jumped right on that. We then began our foray into drinking together. At first we didn't like beer or wine - I loved coffee he did not.

But our tastes changed - the beers and alcohol that we started out with we would never drink now (Wild Blue (a blueberry beer) or Gewurztraminer (Guh-VERTZ-tra-meener) - a sweet tasting wine).

3-4 years later these beverages are a big part of life - in a great - mutually enjoyable social way. We make coffee in our french press every morning - we both drink it. DH has become quite the home brewer - he even won a blue ribbon in our area's state fair for a Scotch Ale he made. We enjoy going to the wine bars and brewery in our town. We are even taking a class to become professional beer judges! Class night is our date night.

So, the moral of the story - or my story at least - is that it can be done - and it's best done together. From what I have read of your story, your wife is slowly on her way out. Be patient and, if possible, maintain open discussions about this, and other, church related issues.

Prost!

Neffie

It may surprise you to know that J.S. himself was a drinker - authorized his own legal authority to sell it - and drank while in jail. I am certain there are much more scholarly sources to refer to, but here's something that came up quickly on google:

ON JOSEPH SMITH'S DRINKING
And since everyone is dancing around the issue of Joseph Smith's well documented fondness for liquor:

Joseph Smith, authorizing himself to sell liquor:

"Ordinance on the Personal Sale of Liquors. Section 1. Be it ordained by the City Council of Nauvoo, that the Mayor of the city be and is hereby authorized to sell or give spirits of any quantity as he in his wisdom shall judge to be for the health and comfort, or convenience of such travelers or other persons as shall visit his house from time to time.Passed December 12, 1843.JOSEPH SMITH, Mayor. WILLARD RICHARDS, Recorder." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 111)

Brother Joseph, enjoying the fruits of the vine and the grains of the field:

"Called at the office and DRANK A GLASS OF WINE with Sister Jenetta Richards, made by her mother in England, and reviewed a portion of the conference minutes.” (History of the Church,Vol. 5, p. 380)

“We then partook of some refreshments, and OUR HEARTS WERE MADE GLAD WITH THE FRUIT OF THE VINE.”
(History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 369)

"Elders Orson Hyde, Luke S. Johnson, and Warren Parrish, then presented the Presidency with three servers of glasses filled with WINE to bless. And it fell to my lot to attend to this duty, which I cheerfully discharged. It was then passed round in order, then the cake in the same order; and suffice it to say, OUR HEARTS WERE MADE GLAD while partaking of the bounty of earth which was presented, until we had taken our fill;..."
(History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 378)

“April17.—This day THE TWELVE blessed and DRANK A BOTTLE OF WINE at Penworthan, made by Mother Moon FORTY YEARS BEFORE.”
(History of the Church, Vol. 4, page 120)

Joseph continues to drink, even while in jail:

“Before the jailor came in, his boy brought in some water, and said the guard wanted some WINE. JOSEPH gave Dr. Richards two dollars to give the guard; but the guard said one was enough, and would take no more. “The guard immediately sent FOR A BOTTLE OF WINE, pipes, and two small papers of tobacco; and one of the guards brought them into the jail soon after the jailor went out. Dr. Richards uncorked the bottle, AND PRESENTED A GLASS TO JOSEPH, WHO TASTED, AS BROTHER TAYLOR AND THE DOCTOR, and the bottle was then given to the guard, who turned to go out.”
(History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 616)

"Sometime after dinner we sent for some WINE. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was NO SUCH THING; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us.... I believe we all drank of the WINE, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards."
(John Taylor, in History of the Church, Vol. 7, page 101)

Read more: Did Joseph Smith sell liquor in Nauvoo and install a bar in the Nauvoo Mansion?

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/35895

I don't drink alcohol (nothing to do with the morg/religion) and dont understand why anyone would create a real 'trust issue' with their DH/DW, by drinking in secret or behind their back.

If it's a big issue with DW, then you need to square it with her, before sampling forbidden fruits.


I agree it's stupid to be afraid of a cappuccino. but it's also stupid to strain a relationship over one



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2011 05:57PM by EssexExMo.

I could not find any valid reason for the demonization of these two beverages that the LDS leaders propagate. Remember there is no revelation forbidding them and the only reason that mormons demonize coffee and tea is because they were added to the temple recommend questions so very many decades ago by a prophet. A prophet who by the standards that mormons use nowadays to dismiss past prophets nonsense could, if they so chose, dismiss the nonsense about coffee and tea today.

I believe the latest argument from mormons is about tannins in coffee and tea. Just like all else in the church this argument leaves out the facts in order to protect ones testimony that coffee and tea are bad. The facts they left out was that these are the good tannins such as is found in grapes and blueberries.

However it’s not about righteousness or what’ s in your heart, it’s about obedience and the unjustified practice of avoiding the “appearance of evil”. An evil that was described by a man so long ago who wanted to differentiate mormons from the uppity tea drinking socialites at the time. Just the same as a modern mormon prophet that had no revelation about only “one earring” , it too has become defacto standard of evil that gets enforced by the clergy and at BYU. Why, he was only speaking as a man, right?

Just like we are no longer ignorant of the fact that no Quakers live on the moon, we are no longer ignorant of the fact that coffee and tea are not bad or evil. After all they serve coffee and tea at hospitals don’t they?

As for alcohol it comes down to personal responsibility. I have never had acquaintances with adults that drank that did not do so in a responsible manner. Since members gave up their rights to decide for themselves, in order to defend their position only the worst situations are put up as evil for all that relates to alcohol. No information is ever put forth that shows how millions of people handle alcohol just fine without all the problems of the few that do have issues with alcohol. It is no different than anything else that is done in excess. When was the last time anyone was in front of the SP being grilled about the unrighteousness of health issues brought on by excess and poor diet by foods that are approved by the church?

In many mormons minds you shouldn’t even have a right to drink alcohol. This is not just my opinion as I have heard it come out of the mouths of mormons for decades.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2011 06:04PM by AmIDarkNow?.

much ignored until TSCC jumped on the bandwagon in the early 1920's, during prohibition times, when Heber J. Grant decided it should be considered a "commandment" instead of just "counsel".

You can drink whatever you wish. It is your body. However, if you value your relationship with your wife and your mutual sex life, you might want to honor your wife's preferences in this area. She might not be attracted to you as much if you drink beverages containing alcohol or caffeine. She might not trust you as much, and she might not like how you smell.

Maybe you could ease into it gradually. Maybe justify drinking Green Tea because its very healthy and doctors say it helps prevents cancer. Then coffee. Then maybe try N/A beer so she gets used to the sight of it. And then go from there to lighter alcoholic drinks like a glass of wine with dinner because it helps your heart (another healthy drink if done in moderation).

I am in coffee
and coffee is in me;
It disolves your soul in urine
and I collect it when you pee

SATAN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am in coffee
> and coffee is in me;
> It disolves your soul in urine
> and I collect it when you pee


It is true that when someone drinks coffee, it makes their pee taste quite awful.

Print out a copy of the Word of Weirdumb.

Sit down with her and ask some thing like,

"to be 'worthy' we need to follow the WOW and the bishy makes sure that we do so that we can get our cards to get into the International House of Handshakes™ "

Have her read aloud with you the section about eating animals where it says,
“And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.” (D&C 89:12–13.)

Then ask her about all those 4th of July picnics. The ones with the hamburgers, and hot dogs, and spare ribs, the steaks, the roast chicken...

Pay special attention to the ones held on church property and or attended by the bishy.

Ask why the weeks leading up to this clear breaking of the WOW by (almost) all of the members of TSCC isn't filled with warnings from the Prophet and all of the officials of TSCC. Clearly they know that it's been going on for years and will happen again. Where is their outrage?

Presentation...

When I buy wine in Utah it's like visiting the DMV!

Terrible atmosphere!

In CA or Nevada there are elegant shops, filled with cheese and wine and beautiful people.

If you allow your wife to associate wine or coffee with smelly stores built of cinder block it kills the allure

Red wine with steak really scores!

Try this, three pound chuck roast in a pressure cooked, cover with cheap red wine, say Fraznia box Cabernet. Pour the wine over the roast until re meat is almost covered. Pressure cook 35 minutes

The meat falls apart. Eat it with a fork. And while the alcohol evaporates the dark sour french bistro flavor is practically food porn!

I serve with potatoes & broccoli.

Gets me so laid!

;-)

Some posters gave you very good advice. Tea, coffee, and alcohol are not huge issues, and as one poster wrote, a cappuccino is not worth putting a strain on your marriage. You're right, Mormons blow the WOW way out of perspective--don't you do the same thing.

You can live without alcohol and caffeine until both of you leave the cult.

Concentrate on the bigger issues: Why do you still go to church with your wife? If you stopped going altogether, the Mormons will shun her even more, and she will get sick of it sooner. Do you still give money to the cult? Do you still wear garments? Are your children also trapped in the cult? Are they being brainwashed, and forced into baptism, missions, temple rituals, etc? Did you clean the church as ordered?

Your personal integrity in not living a lie, your peace of mind, watching out for your children, keeping your marriage together--all are more important than you drinking stuff.

If you discuss the WOW with her, talk about obesity and sugar and red meat. Read the D&C that talks about red meat in moderation, and only in times of famine. LDS, Inc. owns a huge percentage of the beef industry in the US and Canada. They own Amalgamated Sugar, which sells sugar to Coca-cola and Pepsico. Obesity kills more people than alcohol. (I would guess maybe more than cigarettes, but I don't know.) Sugar and fat destroys the body far more than any coffee or tea could, even in their wildest imagination.

forestpal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you discuss the WOW with her, talk about
> obesity and sugar and red meat. Read the D&C that
> talks about red meat in moderation, and only in
> times of famine. LDS, Inc. owns a huge percentage
> of the beef industry in the US and Canada. They
> own Amalgamated Sugar, which sells sugar to
> Coca-cola and Pepsico. Obesity kills more people
> than alcohol. (I would guess maybe more than
> cigarettes, but I don't know.) Sugar and fat
> destroys the body far more than any coffee or tea
> could, even in their wildest imagination.

Excellent points, thanks! I'll file that away for future use.

I drink less now that I'm out. I think the church drove me to drink.

For you drinking beginers. Go easy on the alcohol especially drinks like Ouzo. It may taste like tastey licorice but then it's over 100 proof (50% alcohol). Later it will hit you like a baseball bat to the head and the room will start to spin. It will be fun at first but then you will want off the wild ride and it won't stop. Then you proceed to vomit licorice and acid flavored puke out your nose and mouth all night long and moan like the drunks in Das Boot.

+1

Thanks to an incident with Ouzo 9 years ago, I can't even smell liqorice without becoming queasy. This includes fennel, unfortunately.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2011 06:14PM by itzpapalotl.

Well, just got free from mormonism and all its silly rules
drank,smoke,and loved coffie. Then the seven day aventist church that showed me that mormons were robbing god of priesthood that it wasnt about priesthood/temple authority
but by true sabbath saturday authority that the original levites
kept, but mormon levites were not keeping, I then felt
a natural effort to try live all the health preaching in
seven day aventist church,and was called as a non baptised
SDA leader, who decided one day after some bipola depression
attack to consume coffie,coke and nicotine gum and it was
demanded to hand it all over or hit the highway..
Then I find out that guy was a layman leader called the
same way as me, (Education wise unqualified but missionary
wise we were top marketing salesmen) we both got the jobs and
truly liked most people and helped them on our rounds.

I was able to handle the situation make up with him
but in mormonism, the shame,the shunning toward me
the long term hell of any mistake, even a coffie icecream
I was a bad man according to any mormon who saw me.

No no other church is so hung up about these things as LDS.

I would rather be a slave to coffie and nicotine etc than
a slave to mormon leaders answering to those swines.

LEVITE.

Anything you do in secret behind your wife's back is going to interfere with the trust and intimacy in your marriage, as other posters here have already suggested. If you do decide to drink, even just socially at work, tell her about it. She may not like it, but if she's level-headed, she'll appreciate your honesty. Personally, I haven't started drinking, that's one battle I have chosen not to enter.

Give her time. Since drinking alcohol and or coffee is really no big thing, then it is not a big thing to wait a little longer. Work with her and do things openly.

I drink coffee when I want to right in the house. (Hey, anyone who doesn't like coffee is highly suspect with me. Good coffee is something truly fantastic.) Beer, wine, and the like are something I have to do when I'm with others or by myself. I just did a big trip with a long layover at SeaTac. There I had a bloody mary (I like the saltiness), and a tall Stella Artois. As for that stuff, they're not universally good to any person unless that person has a thing only for the alcohol, and that person has to be careful. But beers and wines and alcohols come in hugely different flavors, and one just has to find the right one. You can't try one beer, dislike it, and then say you dislike beer. There is something there for everyone. (If you want to drink beer, don't start with craft brewery beers, because although they are very tasty, they are strongly flavored. Try something boring and work slowly upward to hoppy and full-flavored. NOTE: Anything that's Mexican is GOOD!)

Doing ANYTHING in your life that you need to hide from your spouse is going to affect your relationship negatively. That's even true of things that you have every right to do (like thinking unapproved thoughts, etc). My husband was apostate for a couple of years before I knew it. I could sense that he was hiding something, and it worried me because I didn't know what it was.

Why cause marital tension or have a secret from your spouse over food? I absolutely LOVE coffee. I don't really care about alcohol much, but it's enjoyable on occassion. But neither are essential to my happiness or fulfillment in life.

If you were asking me about your right to research the church or think your own heretical thoughts, I'd say you NEED to allow yourself to think freely, and I'd say it was advisable to withhold some of that information from your spouse (as my husband did) until your spouse was ready.

But for FOOD? Simply not worth it.

Happened a little opposite in family. I now love to drink, but it was a gradual process faciliated by dh, but he never tried to force me. My adivce is take it gradual. I was the first to decide the church was crap and left. However, I decided to keep the wow because alcohol and coffee just seemed like bad things. What can I say, the brainwashing goes deep. Hubby also had doubts & problems, and although not willing yet to go as far into unbelief as me, he brought home some scotch and started to drink a little. I was horrified. He rightly said if I didn't believe in the church why should I care. I knew he had a point, but I hated his drinking even though it was once or twice a week at most. I feared he would become a raging alcholic.

One night, hubby poured two glasses and brought me one, asking me to just try it. I stared at the glass, thought what the hell and had a sip. I hated it. Did not try alcohol again for several months,but was more open to him drinking. I tried again and decided it was not so bad. This then led both of us to discover what we like and don't like. We tried wine and beer and different types of liquor. It was actually a great time in our marriage. We'd do some research and go to tastings. We've also been very drunk and hung over a few times together, but hey we learned when to stop or be sick. I throughly enjoy going out with friends and dh and drinking and having a good time.

But it was a very gradual process even for someone who doesn't believe in the church one iota. It will be a very difficult move for your wife. Take it slow.

I think if I were in your position I might say something like "You know dear, I'm thinking I might stop off at Starbucks after work tonight and try a Mocha" and see what she says. At least then she knows that you're thinking of it and it won't come as a surprise. Then she can see that after you've had coffee you don't turn into the Tasmanian Devil or the regular devil.

We're not big drinkers but holy moley was it ever fun to have a small glass of champagne at my brother in law's wedding in front of my father in law who actually appeared to be seconds away from having a brain aneurysm at the sight of it.

The Werda Whizdumb

Ran into this in Maranatha Christian Ministries and other charismatic/pentecostal churches. Most never seemed to be a word from God Himself, but a word of discipline.

If she's having doubts, follow the intervention schemas listed in Combatting cult Mind Control. I had to do this for my honey's kids when we were fighting the ex's mental messing with the kids, who believed he owned 7 houses and was a secret millionaire. Truth was, he was essentially penniless due to his paying off another child with another mother. He had narcississtic Personality disorder.

When I had to deal with people coming out in the past, I did it gradually, validating their doubts, but also their desire to stay in if they chose to do so. I never supported their giving into anarchy-that would lead them back into the church rather quickly to give some sort of structure. A little at a time, easy does it. But always support her questioning, by personally agreeing with her feelings and doubts. Also, you could mention, as Steve Hassan does, like situations in other groups which are similar, as that helps get them around the mental blocks they have with losing their ideas and faith, and focuses more on what the faith says, not the thought-stopping techniques.

If she wants to try coffee, try it in another town, away from where you live, and present it to her as either a good trip to get away and try something you are not supposed to do, or a scientific exploration of a modern convenience that other people enjoy. The more anonymous, the safer she will feel. Both will take her away from the feelings of judgment and betrayal of her family and church she may normally feel, and present it as a fun trip or a fact-finding mission.

Good luck, and remember, humor and light-heartedness always help, don't be too serious about it. If if makes her feel awful, you can joke the church MAY have been right. It will make you sound right and her right about doubt even if it turns out badly!

Good luck!

concentrate on not doing the "thou shalts". It is an easier transition. Skip church. Don't clean the chapel. Don't invite the missionaries over. Don't pay tithing. Don't have family home evening. Don't study the BOM. Pretty soon you will have lots of time on your hands to explore other alternatives. And by that point she will know lightening is not going to strike, and she will look at re-entering the mormon lifestyle with dread.

Wow this really hits home. I have been in doubt for years. I began drinking with friends behind wifes back. Well it nearly cost me my marriage. It will damage the trust if you do that.
I am now totally checked out. The Mormons are too fucking odd. Looking back I think its best if you just come out and be up front with her. I would tell her you don't believe anymore. Give her some sound reasons why. Let her digest that. If she flips out and leaves you, then you can move on and live whatever life you want. If she accepts your decision, you can introduce coffee and casual drinking later. But if you want to get trashed, she will probably leave your ass.
Honesty works. You need to be honest with yourself too. Good luck

You have all given me a lot to think about. This was a sincere inquiry, so I appreciated the cautions, warnings, and suggestions, though dangit, I'm really missing out.