I am not a great debater, and don't know the scriptures as well as my RM-TBM hubby... so I have to think ahead and anticipate his comments so I know how to respond. Otherwise he stands there and smirks at me when I get flustered and can't remember my arguments.

I've been trying to discuss tithing with him and he refused to allow me to stop paying my part (I know, but let's not go there yet, okay?) Anyway, he insists tithing is a law from God, and I countered by saying that nowhere in the scriptures does it tell us we have to pay it to the LDS Church specifically. He argued back by saying that the LDS church was Christ's restored church in Christ's name, and therefore that is exactly who we are supposed to pay our tithes to. He mentioned Mal. 3: 10, "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house" and said it obviously refers to giving all our tithes to God's house rather than a charity of our choice.

I tried to say tithing was an O.T. commandment and was done away with Christ's sacrifice, which is why it isn't mentioned in the N.T. He said it is mentioned in Matthew 23:23. I had to look it up, but then I said it wasn't a commandment, just sort of an 'ought to'. He argued that nowhere is it said tithing can now be done away with. He also quoted Jesus saying "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's." and from Lev. 27:30, "The tithe is the Lord's" thereby concluding his argument that it is a law from God.

Argh! Okay, you great debaters, I'm ready for your advice and wisdom!

Let me understand this, you are arguing that paying tithing is fine and you just want to pay to another church?

Also, did I understand that he is "forcing" you to pay your share (presumably on your income) to LDSinc?

Why even argue? Just do as you wish with your part of the income (after shared expenses of course).

Personally, I think it would be easier if you argue that it's your money and you have decided to save it in a personal savings account or something like that. Forget tithing all together.

BTW, if you're going by the NT, they had something worse than tithing. They lived something like united order and all possessions and income belonged to the church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2011 09:41AM by Jesus Smith.

Are you a SAHM or are you working?

It's my money and I'll spend it how I want, you patriarchal prick.

...and if you don't wipe that Shit eating smirk off your face, and start treating me with more respect, your going to lose 60% of your money! 10% to God, and 50% to me!

corrodedinnervessel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's my money and I'll spend it how I want, you
> patriarchal prick.


Ahahahahahahaha! Okay, that made me laugh. :)

My situation is that I am a SAHM and couldn't work much anyway because of an autoimmune disease. So, he gets the paycheck and he writes the tithing check. I tried the whole "well, half of it is mine and I should get to exercise my free agency" argument, but he insists that he is going to save my soul and not let me fall astray and break our temple covenants. I know, he's playing Satan's part here, but telling him that isn't going to get me anywhere. I need good solid reasoning for him.

And NO, I'm not arguing that paying tithing is fine - I was thinking more about all the service that we do and how all those volunteer hours and stuff for charities should count for something. But since they don't go to TSCC itself, they are worthless in God's eyes? Sorry, Leukemia Society, God says no dice...

I don't mean to be rude... Yes, actually I do....

He's a real controlling asshole.

You could be too, but you're better than that. He earns the money for the family and treats it as a tool to control you. You could be a bitch and not give him sex. But you're better than that. Still, explaining that if you were as controlling as he is, you'd be doing that, and he'd have every right to protest it.

By challenging him using LDSinc logic and scripture, you are acknowledging their authority, which in his mind means he rules. You might win some logic loophole some how, but it would be but a patch/bandaid on the real issue: His need to control you.

Instead, address the heart of the matter with tact and honesty. Tell him, you simply do not like him acting so controlling. And while you're at it, I bet there are some boundary issues too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2011 10:31AM by Jesus Smith.

Hmmm. Seems like a change in strategy is called for. How about discussing the importance of free agency.

*Free agency was the plan of Jesus Christ.
*Compulsion was the plan of Satan.
*Heavenly Father chose the plan of Jesus because free agency is central to the plan of salvation.
*Each person stands before God to be judged ALONE
*He will be held responsible for taking away your free agency.
*A priesthood leader is limited to LEAD, GUIDE, and DIRECT--he cannot compel or use force.
*It is called exercising unrighteous dominion
*It is Satan's plan

Best,

Anagrammy

"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's." was explained to me this way: Because the image on the coins is Caesar"s then that is his. God created man in his image so everything in God's image is his. Where does God get off claiming Caesar's portion.

It's not about tithing...it's about "consecration." According to that scripture we should give gawd everything, because we are supposedly made in his image.

Speaking of consecration angelcowgirl, you should just one up him. Tell him if he really wants to live up to his temple covenants he has to donate all of his time, money, and talents to the building up of LDS inc. I'm sort of doubting he does that.

Either that or tell him you don't want your money going to build another mall. Here's some good stuff on tithing http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm#sue

don't argue from a scriptural standpoint ... pointless with a TBM. Just say, "I don't want to pay tithing on my half of the money ... If you want to pay on your half, go ahead. I'll respect that -- but please respect me" done. End of argument.

For an interesting analysis of the Biblical basis for tithing, see http://hellbusters.8m.com/truelies/thetithinglie.html and the numerous links there. The title says it all: "The Tithing Lie."

The Mormons aren't really clear about tithing. They can't even tell you whether God wants tithing to be calculated on the gross or the net. The "revelation" on tithing is D&C section 119, which says that the Saints should start by giving ALL their "surplus property" to the church, and thereafter a tenth of "all their interest annually." Obviously the church is not enforcing the first part (the "surplus property"), and the revelation doesn't define what "interest" is.

Interestingly, another branch of Mormonism, the Community of Christ (formerly called the Reorganized Church or RLDS) does require new members to tithe all their "surplus property," and then tithe each year what they have left after paying their living expenses.

Also interesting is D&C 64:23, saying that those who pay tithing to the church will not "burn." This seems to be what the Book of Mormon condemned (Mormon 8:32), warning against churches which tell you that if you pay them money your sins will be forgiven.

See also:
http://www.tossingtables.com/podcasts/tithing.html

http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html

http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com/

http://hellbusters.8m.com/truelies/thetithinglie.html

I see this opening up all sorts of problems:
1- Calling it "my half" allows discussion of what else is half-mine and half-yours - the house, the kids, etc
2- If he cuts the tithing donation in half, he won't consider himself a full tithe payor, and he will admit this to the bishop during tithing settlement.
3- Arguing on the grounds of the Bible won't do any good, since he can use the D&C and statements from prophets.

This has the potential to do some serious damage to the marriage, because it is a combination of two huge issues: money and religion. My advice - get an appointment with a marriage counselor and bring it up there. You will have someone on your side, which will be a rational voice in the discussion.

Good luck.

That's really true, and so far that's best solution I've read here. He's got AngelCowgirl over a barrel. She needs a (non-LDS) third party present so he can hear how ridiculous he sounds.

Tithing is paid on increase isn't it?

I've always thought the morg abused us with their over the top rules.

If you paid tithing with cattle, and the herd grew by 100 babies you would owe ten head of cattle. In the morg, they count all of your cattle every year, and want ten percent.

"Wait wait, my heard did not grow, and many animals died, so I HAD no "increase"

In the morg you still owe 10 percent

That is how people tithe themselves into bankruptcy, and tscc church encourages it

and Jesus fulfilled that old covenant and gave his followers a new covenant and it did not include Tithing.

That is why you will not find any reference to tithing in the New Testament as a practice of the followers of Jesus.

What Jesus did away with Joe Smith brought back ie. Temples, ordiances, the law, tithing etc. Mormons claim they are the restored church of Jesus Christ, but the fact is Jesus original church did not practice the law of tithing.

All the old laws were fulfilled by Jesus and he gave us new ones. For example, moses taught us "Thou shalt not kill". Jesus gave us a new law he said "Love they enemy" "Turn the other cheek". He gave followers a higher law and did away with the old law.

Tell your husband who is he or Joseph Smith to undue what Christ has done? It is disrespectful and arrogant to ignore the sacrafice Jesus made and restore what he came to fulfill and do away with. If he wants to play the part of a Jew do so, but you choose to be a Christian and follow what Jesus alone taught.


That ought to make him think a bit :)

the new testament tells us to be "Cheerful givers"....thats it.If you give do it cheerfully but there is no pre set amount.

OK, you and your DH are still young, but the years can go by quicker than you realize. One day you will both be age 65 -- retirement age.

85% of Americans reach retirement age with inadequate savings -- money that is needed for a comfortable retirement. Without such savings, the only money you will have is your Social Security benefits. The long term solvency of the Social Security system is questionable, as it is in fact a giant Ponzi scheme. I suggest that you research that issue online.

If your only retirement income is your Social Security benefits, then you will be living below the poverty line. Even though you may have paid tithing all your life, don't expect the LDS Church to come to your financial aid. That will happen the day that pigs fly.

Instead of paying tithing to a Church that is estimated to be worth more than $30 billion, you owe it to yourselves to put the money away for your retirement. You and your husband should each have an IRA and put the maximum amount allowed into that account each year. If you do that every year between now and retirement then you will have enough money for a comfortable retirement. If you don't do that you will be living in a state of poverty.

Oh yes, and there is another item. You have kids. How will they (and you) pay for their college education? Have you included that not-so-little item into your long-term financial plans?

The Mormon Church is a scam. Tithing is a scam. (I know you understand that but your DH does not.) The whole thing is designed to give the 15 big-wig Brethren a bigger kingdom to lead. They lighten your wallet and rob you of your own income to enhance their power. If your DH is stupid enough to let that happen then you deserve to live in poverty in your old age.

When people finally figure out that the CoJCoLDS is a big scam, one of the first regrets they have is the loss of the tens of thousands of dollars they poured down the tithing rathole. Sometimes such people wonder if they can sue the church to get their tithing money back. Of course the answer to that question is no. Tithing was a voluntary donation. It can never be recovered.

You could propose this solution to your (apparently very dense) DH. Open the IRA accounts and put your money into those accounts. Let the money accumulate over your lifetimes. When you reach age 65, if you have more money than you need for retirement and if he still believes in the LDS cult, then pay the excess money to the cult at that time. This is the ONLY way that you can possibly have that money for your own use in case you really really need it to stay out of poverty in your old age.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. - Albert Einstein

Many part member families fall into this category when one spouse refuses to allow the other to spend family finances on tithing or other contributions.

If you fall into 'Exempt' status, you cannot be penalized for not paying your full tithe at the end of the year, and you can still have a temple recommend.

In my ward there were two sisters who were classified as exempt for that very reason. They contiunued to hold a calling, a temple recommend, and were assured that they would not be held accountable for their inability to pay for their blessings.

Okay, if he's earning all the money there is some justification to just let him spend it like he wants. On the other hand, if you or the children are suffering for the lack of money spent on tithe then it might be time for you to consider getting a job of your own -- the income from that would be yours not to tithe on. (Please don't think I have ANYTHING against being a stay at home mom. I'm just talking finances, needs and how to get needs met. Being a stay at home mom is a very valuable contribution to the family in my mind.)

Secondly, I'm very disturbed that he would be thinking he can save you whether you want it or not. As other's have pointed out, that was Satan's plan in the Mormon mythology. I doubt he'd like you to point that out to him but perhaps you can find a good marriage counselor that might consider it?

Thirdly, are you happy? Do you love him? Is this something you are willing to compromise on for the sake of a happy marriage or is this something that is so important to you that no middle ground exists? I think a counselor might be in order to help you sort out whether or not you are in a good marriage or a controlling and abusive one. (Seriously disturbed by the "I'm going to save you." thing.)

My advice, really consider what you want, why you want it, whether or not you're in a healthy relationship and what your options are.

Good luck.

You had some great points but I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

I think one small thing was missed. Regardless of whether he is the one 'earning' all the money or not, he is not justified to spending like he wants it. If he has a family (and he has) he first has obligations towards that family.

There are many combinations of family units, depending on what is decided. The ones where everyone works, the others were one partner works and one stays at home, be it through choice or circunstance. Regardless, you have agreed on how your family would work and your first financial responsibility regardless of who earns the money is to your family. So I don't believe he has any justification (to entirely decide) on how to spend the money just because he earns it.

I like anagrammy's approach using free agency, and also Freevolved. You can also point out that DC 119 says to pay on "interest", not on income.
Then look up "interest" in the dictionary or thesaurus, and, lo and behold, income is not listed as a definition of nor a synonym of interest. You can read the whole section together, and explain that tithing was paid on surplus, not income.
"Those who have thus been tithed of their surplus shall be numbered in the stakes of Zion."

RPackham provided you above. The Mormons really don't even live their own law of tithing. Technically, if you read all the relevant D&C verses carefully, tithing=law of consecration. And all mormons know that they are not living the law of consecration, hence they really aren't living the law of tithing either.

You can also argue Malachi with him. Go back and really read the entire book of Malachi IN CONTEXT and you will discover that it is a criticism of the Priests. If anything, the Malachi verses could be turned around to point the finger at how church leaders squander tithing, not the poor saps who turn over their 10% to them.

Another point that I always raise, is that the OT definition of tithing is not 10% of everything. It is 10% of certain crops. If you were a common laborer, you wouldn't have to give anything. It only applied to certain people. And not only that, it was used to support the tribe of Levi, not a church.

The internet has some good information on Malachi if you take the time to read in some depth. Remember, Mormon doctrine is always A MILE WIDE BUT ONLY AN INCH DEEP. It just takes a little study and their interpretation doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I could go on, but won't bore you to tears. I got into serious scripture study about tithing once a long time ago, and came away realizing that the current Mormon interpretation is not scriptural in any sense.

Here's my take on it.

Why does God so desparately need our money?

I mean, come on - we're talking about the absolute, sovereign, creator of all existence here ... HE needs money?

It's absurd. The very idea that a SUPREME BEING would WANT for anything is stupid.

God wants us to love him.
God wants us to grow.
God wants money to feed poor people.

A SUPREME BEING cannot WANT anything. If He does want for something, then he is not supreme. It's just that simple.

So, if your husband says, "Of course Heavenly Father doesn't NEED your tithing ... he just wants you to learn to sacrifice," then you just come back with "I'll choose my own way to sacrifice."


Why would God "prefer" you sacrifice MONEY? That's the leadership talking, not GOD. THEY need the money. The CHURCH needs the money. GOD doesn't need money.


Just use your personal revelation and have God tell you where he wants you to sacrifice.

A GOD worth worshipping would have you feed the poor, care for the sick and dying, house the homeless, clothe the naked.

A SICK God-Substitute would have you give your MONEY to a multi-billion dollar corporation that is building a $3 billion mall in downtown Salt Lake.

Enough said.

...this is not so much a tithing issue as it is a money management and fair division of assests issue. Your husband is treating it as if it's all his money. It's not. You're a partnership. You feel strongly against tithing, and you have a right to have your views respected. I think that tithing on 50% of the income would be completely fair.

Ask your husband if the situation were reversed, and he was the SAHD and/or disabled. It does happen! How would he feel if you were the one earning the money, and you did not take his wishes into account?

As others have pointed out, your husband would not be penalized by the church for your failure to tithe. And he does need to respect your free agency.

If your husband is not including you in the budget decisions and financial management of the household, he should be. If this is the case, I would start with that.

1. Arguing on whether or not you should flush money down the drain using quotes from the big book of Jewish fairytales coupled with the book of Joseph's commandments will get you nowhere. Who's ridiculous stories prove anything "over" anybody else's? Nobody's. He's not going to be persuaded with scriptures, he has a modern day conman-er prophet- whose authority outstrips anybody else's interpretation of "scripture."

2. You are a SAHM. The money isn't earned by you. Yes, it SHOULD be the family's money. But none of it is earned by you.

I'd pick a different battle if I were you. Even though you are correct on this, you shouldn't pay tithing.

You can't negotiate using something you don't actually control (the checkbook, in this case). You are the only person who can make the decision to stay a member.

Free agency in action.

Wow - what a mixed bag here.
Let me clear up a few things:

1 - I am unable to work due to disability. Even if I COULD, DH does not want me to and I respect that.

2 - We agreed when we married that the bank account was OURS, whether I earned it or not because, by staying home with the kids, I AM working according to HIS desires as voiced by his prophets.

3 - This is not a battle I 'chose' and I am not looking to 'choose' another. The reason I am starting here is because we are so far in debt that we bounce checks every month... yet he continues to pay tithing. We need the money.

4 - He has refused counseling of any kind, Morg or not. He firmly believes that counselors contribute to the breakup of marriages and society (that is a direct quote).

So those of you who think I'm just trying to pick a fight can go find somebody else to rail on for a while, okay? For those of you who actually gave helpful and encouraging answers and information, thank you.

I understand that this is an important issue, and it is one that I would hope you would "win the debate."

However, I don't see that happening. You are at an impass with the little information that I have.

Nothing you say could trump the words of the "prophets."

If you are in debt, the "church" teaches that you should ESPECIALLY pay tithing. Because the lord will rain down more magic blah blah blah.

If he doesn't want counseling, then you are at another impass. I don't think anything at this point will help other than you placing your finances in his face over and over and over and over again.

Don't quote scripture. Just keep showing him that you cannot afford your life. And after time either he'll understand that he can't afford tithing or other things....or you're heading down the path of irreconcilable differences.

It's a rough, harsh reality, and I am very sorry about your circumstances.

Quote Carlin:

"Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the
sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't
want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of
fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs
money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!"
[George Carlin, on Politically Incorrect, May 29, 1997]

Have you gotten anywhere by asking the Mo church for help? (...with utility bills, food help, etc.) If not, investigate community food pantries, etc.

Bouncing checks is expensive -- don't do that. It's a further drain on your money. I use online banking to keep track of my account. You can also pay many bills in person if you wish.

"2 - We agreed when we married that the bank account was OURS, whether I earned it or not because, by staying home with the kids, I AM working according to HIS desires as voiced by his prophets."

If you are not going to follow his prophet on tithing. Then don't follow his prophet on SAHM. You want to pick and choose? I suggest you get a career of your own. If you keep picking and choosing what is to be done in your marriage, you and your hsuband will get a divorce.

once again, just because he 'earned' the money, it gives him no right to decide entirely what is done with it.

As you mentioned on your own post:

"2 - We agreed when we married that the bank account was OURS"

Key word here: OURS

I agree with you, it is 'OURS' so why is your husband acting like it is 'his'?

You obviously love him, and you will never win the tithing debat, but you need to present to him the points in your thread, and ask him, 'if it is OURS, why do I have not say?'

You should have your say, specially given the financial situation you find yourselves in. First meet your financial obligations, then if there is anyting left over, you can tithe 10% of that, not the full amount.

I remember reading that tithing was 10% of your 'surplus' and surplus was described as what is left over after all your necessities and needs have been met. People in the church argue about 'interpretation' of what necessities and needs are, but I remember reading a talk by one of the prophets where he stated, necessities are: shelter/food/water/clothing, then there are needs such as shooling, and self improvement, and SAVINGS. Further, you should never get into debt to pay your tithing...so if your cheques are bouncing because you are taking tithing right off the top and there is nothing to cover your necessities... you should do the reverse.

As a partner in the marriage, and of 'OUR' money, you need to have your input of how you are both going to get out of this financial hole, even if it is a temporary solution of not paying any tithing until certain needs have been met, ie: all bills paid and a healthy savings account saved up.

If your husband cannot respect that, then he has made it clear you are not his partner, and it is not 'OUR' money. You need to then ask yourself why you respect all of his wishes but he cannot respect yours.

Best to you.

Leave it alone. You are a SAHM. The LDS chruch is a big advocate of SAHMs. You receive the blessing of being home with the kids. Don't turn his gift into your sacrafice.

If you want to make a statement get a carreer of your own. Don't pay tithing on the money you earn.

AngelCowgirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not a great debater, and don't know the
> scriptures as well as my RM-TBM hubby... so I have
> to think ahead and anticipate his comments so I
> know how to respond. Otherwise he stands there
> and smirks at me when I get flustered and can't
> remember my arguments.
>
>

I know I kind of, indirectly, already addressed this in a prior post but smirking at someone and making them get flustered is NOT acceptable Spouse to Spouse comunication. It shows a total disrespect, and belittling of you, and your ideas. I bet this is not the only time he does this. If you would correct this behavior in him I think you will find yourself doing better in your debates. If jon1 tried this with Mrs. jon1, I would not see her for 2 weeks,.....and then the swelling would start to go down in my eyes...

I don't think tithing is the biggest issue right now.

Adding(just saw the bouncing checks thing) If he controls the checking account, and checks are bouncing, it's time for a change of accountants!!! What you are doing right now is not working. If he will not relenquish the responsability to you, then a daily checking over the account, by you, is in order to make sure no more mistakes are being made. Most TBMs love Dave Ramsey. Go to the library and check out his book, and make your husband read it with you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2011 01:55PM by jon1.

I agree - communication in marriage should be less about winning the debate and more about understanding and respecting each others' feelings. How is your husband really feeling if you say that you can't afford tithing? He doesn't want you to work, so it's likely that he sees himself as the provider. The fact that you are in debt may mean that he feels insecure about being able to provide for you, in which case complaining that you can't afford to pay tithing could sound like an attack on his manhood. I don't know your husband and whether that is the case, but I do think the issues are deeper than just tithing.

forget debating tithing with a person who cannot believe otherwise. Instead, let's go where you did not want to go, and bring the 11th article of faith to light (use mormonism to fight mormonism):

"We claim the privilege of worshipping Almightly God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and ALLOW all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. "

Then ask him if he truely believes that? His answer can only be yes.

Then declare, the dictates of your own conscience states that you will not pay tithing on your share, and that he is not to sabotage that by paying tithing from his income and deducting it from you, and that he is (according to his religion) to ALLOW (hate that word) you to do as you believe. To do otherwise would be hipocritical.

End of story.

Tithes are calculated on one's "increase" (Deuteronomy 14:22, 28; 2 Chronicles 31:5)