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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
This drives me nuts. I'm posting and hoping some of you can help me refine this, because I really want to be able to present this to my family and friends in the Morg.
We hear this all the time - "Oh, he was just speaking as a man when he said that", when something doesn't line up or seems weird. It's the catch-all for excusing the words or behavior of a "prophet". There are many problems with this, but I'll outline just a few.
1) In no instance does the prophet ever say "Okay, I'm speaking as a prophet now" or "Okay, I'm speaking as a man now". So how the hell are you supposed to know when he's in man mode and when he's in prophet mode? When the prophet says don't go see R-rated movies, is he speaking as prophet or man? When he says that every young man should go on a mission, is he speaking as prophet or man? When he tells the members that they need to clean the toilets, is he speaking as prophet or man? So how do you know what you absolutely have to follow, what's just a suggestion, or what's going to turn out to be a completely denied by your own church down the road (see Adam-God doctrine). I mean, if this is what passes for a prophet, I may as well start consulting a magic 8-ball. At least I don't have to give it 10% of my income.
2) The church teaches that the words of the current prophet trump the words of former prophets. It also apparently is fine with former prophets being off-base on a bunch of stuff (they were speaking as a man of course). So why then do Mormons have as their standard works, the words of prophets from hundreds of years ago and from the first guy to be a prophet in the "restored gospel". And why the heck are missionaries asking people to pray about if the Book of Mormon is true and if Joseph Smith was a prophet? Aren't Thomas Monson's words far superior to the long-dead guys' from the Book of Mormon? I mean, we supposedly have these modern prophets whose words are the tops in authority, yet all that gets studied are the words of a bunch of dead guys. Help me out here?
3) Weren't we all taught, when we were Morg-bots, that the prophet would NEVER BE ALLOWED TO LEAD US ASTRAY. We were not taught that we wouldn't be led astray unless of course the prophet is speaking as a man. No, we were told that we could never be led astray by the prophet, period. God would take him first. So wait then - even if the prophet truly were speaking as a man, wouldn't God still off him before he could tell us something untrue? Heck, isn't that the whole point - that if the prophet of Christ Himself goes off on his own jag when he is responsible for Lord God Almighty's very own church, that he will be stopped? I mean, otherwise what is the point of that whole never being led astray statement? If you make it with the caveat that, well, you can be led astray if he's speaking as a man, then it defeats the entire purpose. Because how the heck could he lead you astray if he's truly speaking as a prophet in the first place? THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT, IN ORDER TO LEAD YOU ASTRAY, HE'D HAVE TO BE SPEAKING AS A MAN AND NOT A PROPHET. SO NO, BASED ON THE TEACHINGS OF YOUR OWN FRACKING CHURCH, A PROPHET CAN NEVER BE ALLOWED TO TEACH STUFF TO THE CHURCH AS A JUST A MAN. Good gravy, how can people not get this?!?! I feel like my head is about to explode.
Anyway, in closing I'd just like to propose that we change the words to the hymn, "Follow the Prophet". They should now say: "Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow him unless he's speaking as a man. Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, there's a good chance he's off base, but hey just go with it".
We hear this all the time - "Oh, he was just speaking as a man when he said that", when something doesn't line up or seems weird. It's the catch-all for excusing the words or behavior of a "prophet". There are many problems with this, but I'll outline just a few.
1) In no instance does the prophet ever say "Okay, I'm speaking as a prophet now" or "Okay, I'm speaking as a man now". So how the hell are you supposed to know when he's in man mode and when he's in prophet mode? When the prophet says don't go see R-rated movies, is he speaking as prophet or man? When he says that every young man should go on a mission, is he speaking as prophet or man? When he tells the members that they need to clean the toilets, is he speaking as prophet or man? So how do you know what you absolutely have to follow, what's just a suggestion, or what's going to turn out to be a completely denied by your own church down the road (see Adam-God doctrine). I mean, if this is what passes for a prophet, I may as well start consulting a magic 8-ball. At least I don't have to give it 10% of my income.
2) The church teaches that the words of the current prophet trump the words of former prophets. It also apparently is fine with former prophets being off-base on a bunch of stuff (they were speaking as a man of course). So why then do Mormons have as their standard works, the words of prophets from hundreds of years ago and from the first guy to be a prophet in the "restored gospel". And why the heck are missionaries asking people to pray about if the Book of Mormon is true and if Joseph Smith was a prophet? Aren't Thomas Monson's words far superior to the long-dead guys' from the Book of Mormon? I mean, we supposedly have these modern prophets whose words are the tops in authority, yet all that gets studied are the words of a bunch of dead guys. Help me out here?
3) Weren't we all taught, when we were Morg-bots, that the prophet would NEVER BE ALLOWED TO LEAD US ASTRAY. We were not taught that we wouldn't be led astray unless of course the prophet is speaking as a man. No, we were told that we could never be led astray by the prophet, period. God would take him first. So wait then - even if the prophet truly were speaking as a man, wouldn't God still off him before he could tell us something untrue? Heck, isn't that the whole point - that if the prophet of Christ Himself goes off on his own jag when he is responsible for Lord God Almighty's very own church, that he will be stopped? I mean, otherwise what is the point of that whole never being led astray statement? If you make it with the caveat that, well, you can be led astray if he's speaking as a man, then it defeats the entire purpose. Because how the heck could he lead you astray if he's truly speaking as a prophet in the first place? THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT, IN ORDER TO LEAD YOU ASTRAY, HE'D HAVE TO BE SPEAKING AS A MAN AND NOT A PROPHET. SO NO, BASED ON THE TEACHINGS OF YOUR OWN FRACKING CHURCH, A PROPHET CAN NEVER BE ALLOWED TO TEACH STUFF TO THE CHURCH AS A JUST A MAN. Good gravy, how can people not get this?!?! I feel like my head is about to explode.
Anyway, in closing I'd just like to propose that we change the words to the hymn, "Follow the Prophet". They should now say: "Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow him unless he's speaking as a man. Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, there's a good chance he's off base, but hey just go with it".
When the past prophet was just speaking as a man, our parents and grandparents were required to accept his words as a living prophet who could never lead them astray.
Today, we cannot teach the things that they said to our parents because they were only speaking as men, and it is not correct doctrine.
Our counsel has always been to not worry about what the past prophets have said, and to listen to the living prophet only. But again that leaves us in a quandry- tomorrow, todays prophet was speaking only as a man and should not be repeated.
Our parents led us astray because they believed the man was a prophet. Unless we reject todays prophets, we run the risk of teaching our children false doctrine also.
Today, we cannot teach the things that they said to our parents because they were only speaking as men, and it is not correct doctrine.
Our counsel has always been to not worry about what the past prophets have said, and to listen to the living prophet only. But again that leaves us in a quandry- tomorrow, todays prophet was speaking only as a man and should not be repeated.
Our parents led us astray because they believed the man was a prophet. Unless we reject todays prophets, we run the risk of teaching our children false doctrine also.
How can you tell when the Prophet is speaking as a man?
Simple - his lips move...
If God wants to say something to me he doesn't need anyone to talk for him, he's got my number.
Simple - his lips move...
If God wants to say something to me he doesn't need anyone to talk for him, he's got my number.