How far should one expect a TBM spouse to go in supporting our decision to not go to church, to not be a part of the church? What is a minimum? For instance, is it too much to ask that the TBM spouse put off baptizing one of the children, or allowing the children to stay home every other Sunday?

I know one answer I'll get to this is that "it all depends on the TBM in question." Okay, but it does seem to me that all too often, in the posts one reads, the TBM is the one calling the shots. They are the aggrieved party; you bailed on them; you don't respect their beliefs; you are the one who isn't toeing the line; the disaffected spouse is the one who lacks integrity or character or is under the influence of Satan. I guess what I'm wondering about here is what are the minimal rights that an exmo can expect from a TBM spouse?

Mormonism is so bad about boundaries that I think it's helpful to rehearse the exmo list of rights (a la what one might find in an assertiveness training manual). E.g., "I have the right to say no to love-bombing." "I have the right to not have my son's missionary farewell in my home." "I have the right to not have home teachers visit." "I have the right to take the kids to my own, non-mo church every other Sunday." Etc.

If the TBM spouse was even slightly willing to TALK ABOUT IT--but it always becomes a huge emotional issue. AND I'll say again that I will NEVER understand why a woman would make the mistake of letting a good man go over mormonism.

You wouldn't believe what lengths I went to to save my family and my marriage--and to save my family STILL.

Any woman (or man) who will let their family fall apart over religion is a fool.

I wish that TBMs could have a realistic conversation about this.

So--since my daughter is TBM, then I should divorce her? Should I say she can't go because the majority in the family doesn't believe? The list goes on and on.

Amazing how it changes when it is a member of the family you "can't" divorce.

I always think of what Bob McCue says, regarding one's children: he said several years after his leaving the church that his daughter was still in it with her family and they were happy so he was happy. In that case it seems to me the relationship, and maintaining it, is the most important thing. OTOH, he has written that for his loved ones he pushed harder on getting them to discuss and realize things about the church than he did for others. This makes sense. One tries harder for kids and spouse to get them out of a fraudulent organization.

I think one of the things that still shocks me about the church is that it makes people choose it over family. That is a remarkable, unbelievable thing to someone from a secular or mainstream Protestant background I think. How does the church embed that much fear and mind control?

You asked about how they accomplish the fear and control--it is the brainwashing from a young age.

AND take a woman--the most important thing to her is her family and keeping it together. That is what kept me sucked in for so long--I could overlook SO MANY THINGS because I lived in absolute fear of losing my family. I still remember as a child--around 5 years old--looking at the bottle of instant coffee in our cupboard--as my dad almost always drank coffee all my life and I KNEW that if he didn't quit, we wouldn't be together forever. AND he didn't attend the temple again until my sister got married--and I worried about that all the time as a child, too--and the really stupid thing is that my dad was really mean and I was afraid of him a lot of the time, but I couldn't imagine spending eternity without him.

It really is BRAINWASHING. They way I released myself--as I was still believing even after what I'd been through--is I went inactive. I went inactive so my marriage wouldn't fall apart in public--but I still BELIEVED. I had to quit getting my weekly dose of programmming and it took YEARS, but one day I realized I no longer believed.

They are holding your family hostage.

My daughter--she has a selective memory. She remembers us being a happy family before her dad left. We were. We CHOSE to be happy. I as her mother chose to be happy even if my marriage was a "sham"--but we did so much as a family--so she watches old family movies and connects that with being active in the church--so if we all went back, we could be a happy family. What my son pointed out is--"Dad was cheating then, too, but she conveniently pretends he wasn't." I knew. I had accepted who he was and why he cheated.

BUT in her mind if we could all just go back to then, we'd all be happy.

What I do know is I just have to go along with her or I will lose her and I won't let them win. Someday she'll figure it out.

I do have to say though--I was one of the lucky ones as my family is mostly inactive (my daughter is the only grandchild who is active mormon) and my parents listened when I told them how I felt as they weren't extreme.

Sorry so long. I'm just bored tonight and don't feel like working any longer.

Anyway--I wish I knew what a happy medium could be for those who want to save their marriages.