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Posted by: givemethismoment ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:01AM

OK, here is something that's been on my mind. I know there are some people here who continue to believe in the afterlife, and there are others who don't.

My only fear with leaving the Mormon church is involving the afterlife and together forever, etc. Now, whether or not I'm attending church obviously doesn't matter as it isn't true, but if I'm denying the church then I have to deny the entire thing - including the idea that families can be together forever.

I suppose this is one of those things that has been created or whatever for comfort of those left behind after a loved-one dies. It is so stressful to me to think that perhaps it isn't true. My mom is very sick, I'm young (17). She probably isn't going to die, but if she did, I don't know how I could go on knowing that I will never see her again. Along with the obvious knowledge that as I grow old I will lose a lot of people who are very special to me.

Is there anyone here who has lost a loved one post-Mormons or post-Christiantiy or whatever? How have you dealt with the loss? It's no longer just 'until we meet again' it's truly just goodbye. and it's absolutely tearing my brain/heart apart.

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Posted by: amos ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:18AM

Doctrine and Covenants 138 explains that "all contracts...have an end when...dead".
The concept is that manmade contracts and authority end at death.
Obviously.
It's meant to assert that this includes marriage. Marriage is performed by civil authority, so, as the Mormon assumption goes, it's not legal after death.
The common marriage vow is "until death do you part".

BUT...

It's ASSUMED that you NEED any ceremony or authority at all.

Mormonism, by saying that God will actually regard the "until death do you part" contract, contradicts itself by saying that the contract is void at death.

It's assumed that the default condition is separation from your loved ones and that you need a contract to be a family.

Bull shit.

Can you not have kids without any contract whatsoever?
Can you not form lasting loving relationships without any contract whatsoever?

Nature takes care of it.

The fallacy of "forever families" is that they aren't just that ALREADY naturally. No contract is needed for a naturally-occuring relationship.

The D&C, BTW, is a lie. 138, IMO, was a concoction to justify polygamy.

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Posted by: The StalkerDog™ ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:22AM

say people will be together in the afterlife, not just mormons. They act like they're the only ones and they invented the concept, but that's wrong.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:25AM

The belief in an after life is not exclusive to Mormonism. Most religions believe you will exist after death. Even if there is no God, it doesn't necessarily follow that there is not an afterlife. I , at least, believe in the possibility.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:29AM

The Mormons dont have a monopoly on the afterlife although you would think they did with the forever families crap. When I believed in the Christian concpet (was raised Protestant ) of heaven it never occurred to me that one would not be with those whom one loved. When i learned about the whole Mormon deal with different heavens and then each worthy man getting his own universe I didn't see how you could be together if everyone is a God with their own world to run. And how would some moron even have the wisdom to be a God?

Then I became and atheist. Then I experienced things that could not be explained and participated in different spiritual practices.

Now at the age of 50 I am convinced of reincarnation. There is no hell you just have to come back and deal with the stuff you got wrong in the last life or things you have to experience in order to grow. You die and spend some time with the creator (no beard and flowing robe just energy) and the spiritual energy of those you loved and then get booted back to earth to try it again. We are tied to our ancestors who are rooting for us to get it right.

I have had issues with forgiveness with my father when he died because he did some pretty horrible things. However once a person dies I think they revert back to their pure form, like a newborn. My father got some bad deals from his parents and sometimes I think of him as the hurt child he was and I understand how he ended up as he was.

Well that is what I believe and it works for me.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:32AM

How funny - we all were writing the same type of response.

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Posted by: givemethismoment ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:36AM

Thank you guys! It is VERY funny that everyone wrote the same response within about 5 minutes of each other haha.

I guess being BIC I don't really think about the fact that other churches also promise life after death. This is the only thing about leaving the church that truly has me depressed. I'm still not sure how I feel about it because now I'm beginning to wonder if I believe in this stuff at all anymore (and I got teary just typing that). But thank you all SO much for your replies - I TRULY appreciate them. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2011 12:36AM by givemethismoment.

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Posted by: anonmiss ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:37AM

Read some books by mediums or google Near Death Experiences. From everything I've ever heard or read we are all met by our loved ones when we die.

That's my new agey advice! But then I also believe in reincarnation.

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Posted by: anonmiss ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:44AM

ps

I knew a woman whose daughter died tragically and at a young age. She was a normal woman but went to a medium she knew in her town for a while and felt a lot better. Through this medium daughter told her things only she would have known. It was legit (if you believe in these things).

The daughter told her all kinds of things about the afterlife. Like total love and peace and understanding. Religion stops mattering. Basically it's all good and we're freaking out about nothing.

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Posted by: givemethismoment ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:47AM

THANK YOU! Thank you thank you.

I had forgotten completely that almost every member of my extended family (including my mother) went to a very legit medium on separate occasions (over a period of a few years) and each of them reported the same experience - our loved ones were very present, and the woman was VERY legit. Oh man, I had totally forgotten about that. If I could express my gratitude to you right now, it would be outstanding haha.

That actually should have been a lesson in itself that the church is untrue - there is NO.WAY. all those people were in the 'CK.' None of them were even members haha.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2011 12:47AM by givemethismoment.

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Posted by: anonmiss ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:50AM

:)

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 03:27PM

As opposed to ....

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Posted by: mtnmdwcookiemonster ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 05:32AM


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Posted by: mtnmdwcookiemonster ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 05:33AM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2011 05:34AM by mtnmdwcookiemonster.

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Posted by: anonmiss ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 01:03PM

I would have said the same thing ten years ago.

It makes the claims of TSCC more ridiculous to me. No one could ever have a monopoly on God, the other side, or spiritual phenonmena. Especially not after having met all the people I've met (Buddhists, Jews, Catholics, yes Mormons) claiming legit spiritual experiences.

And I don't call skeptics or atheists ridiculous because I've been there and can identify. It IS wacky until you've experienced it. In the end it doesn't matter- life keeps on.

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Posted by: snb ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 08:34PM

Unfortunately, I can't believe it.

I would love to see a ghost. It would allow me to be rational AND believe in things like the afterlife.

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Posted by: anonmiss ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 10:33PM

Snb dude! You totally don't wanna see a ghost. Me, I am a child of rational scientists (visiting here because of mormon family involvement). I had a few otherworldly experiences and it did a number on me. I was pretty rational about it and did a bunch of wondering whether I had become schizo, but realized I had a job, paid my bills, and was a well-functioning member of society.

I spoke with lots of different kinds of people after these experiences (shamans, monks, lots of different religious people, psychologists, etc) and now I do believe in much more than we can see but am pragmatic about it. If it helps others and myself, then it's good.

And it does! Those experiences were what led me to work full-time with troubled youth. They also made it hard for me to swallow the claims of the religious, oddly enough. God is for everybody.

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Posted by: snb ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 10:48PM

I still maintain that it would be a cool story :)

That is awesome you work with troubled youth. I did that through college. It was an interesting line of work.

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Posted by: givemethismoment ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 08:32PM

It's not really something to have a debate about. Either you believe it or you don't, and if you've not had an experience with it then you're not going to believe mine. We're entitled to believe differently - it doesn't make it 'ridiculous.' It's offensive to call someone's ideas ridiculous because you disagree with them. We're all entitled to our opinions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2011 08:33PM by givemethismoment.

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Posted by: snb ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 08:37PM

...of course. I don't think anybody would disagree.

That doesn't change the fact that your belief could be ridiculous.

There isn't much difference between the belief in the afterlife, the belief in ghosts and the belief in magical underwear.

A lot of us left Mormonism and magical underwear thinking. Don't feel too bad if we also reject other similar ideas :)

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Posted by: phyllis ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:40AM

i don't have any good ideas for dealing with it. it's taken several years, but i feel like i've more or less come to terms with the reality that this life is all there is. this reality was especially painful when my mom passed away 6 years ago.

i can understand why people have made up stories about an afterlife, because death is so much more painful without that belief. but my view is that wanting it to be so doesn't make it so and i've seen no evidence for life after death.

it took a long time to get used to it, it's so opposite of what i believed for the first 25 years of my life. but as hard as it is, i'd rather live with this reality than spend my life living under a set of false beliefs. it does get easier to get used to this.

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Posted by: Don Bagley ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:41AM

Feelings about "Families are Forever:"

At Five years old: Who would drive me to school if it weren't true?

At Seven: Dad has the wallet.

At Ten: I never want to change houses.

At Twelve: Is there no break from this shit?

At Fourteen: I would rather that families are for never.

At Eighteen: Fine, throw me out. See if I ever call you.

At Twenty: I love you honey, we'll never part ways.

At twenty-five: Lovers are fools, families are a mirage.

At Thirty: I changed his goddam diaper last.

At Forty: Two F's and a D? You're grounded.

At Fifty: MY back hurts like a bitch.

At Sixty: My old man died, and good riddance.

At Seventy: Six months, Doctor. Is that all?

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:48AM

I expect the afterlife to be exactly like the pre existence.

Peaceful oblivion, no one making any demands. Nothingness is so calm.

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Posted by: dieter ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:48AM

When my wife was in icu last year after a ruptured ectopic pregnancy. She had an NDE. She was pretty hopped up on pills and the only thing she described or talked about that was clear was the NDE. Even when I ask her now what she described was the same exact thing she described when she first woke up and told me. I tell her some other things she said and she doesnt remember those things. Like how she thought the Kia car salesman was her various -ologist. I swear that man had about 6 different hospital jobs when she was still drugged up.

Ive experienced enough personally to know there is an afterlife.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:48AM

Mormons think they are Christians but they ignore that Christ told his followers that the faithful would be with him and God after death. Christ didn't put in any requirements of secret handshakes and other bullshit. No levels of heaven. And becoming a God was part of the plan. Oh and Christ forgot to tell everyone that Joe Smith would be calling all the shots.

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Posted by: snb ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 08:45PM

...are mentioned in your bible. If you are such a true Christian, why don't you believe what your own book says?

Your beliefs are equally as valid as Mormon beliefs, even if you so smugly deem them as "non-christian."

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Posted by: xr ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 12:49AM

Hi givemethismoment,
By abandoning the beliefs of mormonism and christianity you are not declaring all their teachings as false, you are only dismissing their authority to divine true from false.
When your loved ones pass to the next place, you do not know that you will not share time and love with them again.
It is a complex existence we live in, and the strength of love that we can share and the power that love can have on our beings tells me that in the eternal cycle love is not forgotten.
There is much we don't know about what we are.

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Posted by: anon123 ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 01:09AM

Just sharing a story of my uncle. He was near 12 maybe younger when he got hit by a car and flew nearly 20 feet. He died on the helicopter and once again in the Hospital and he said he saw his grandpa I believe, and he saw him at peace.


And he's not Mormon. Never has been. Don't think ever will be. Stories like that give me hope. :) I'm sure when you die you will see your mother again. You need this (((((HUGS))))

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Posted by: Gullibles Travels ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 01:50AM

The first was a gay friend of mine who died of a drug OD at age 33.
I was actually glad I didn't believe then b/c he wouldn't have fit in to well in the mo version of heaven and it would have made dealing with his loss harder.

The second was my grandmother in April of this year. She was 84 and I miss her a lot.

The 3rd, and hardest of all was losing our 22 yr old nephew in a car wreck this past October. Because of a mormon related fallout that we had with his parents, our entire family (me, dh, and 4 little kids) were banned from the funeral.

Losing someone is hard, whether you believe you will see them again or not. There are times it can hurt so bad that you just want to crawl out of your skin....then that moment passes. Those moments grow shorter and further apart. Time moves forward and your body/mind begins to heal itself just like it does when you break a bone or get a bad cut.

Just like with those injuries, you will carry a scar. And when the weather turns cold, your old injuries can ache so badly it feels like they just happened yesterday....then, again, it passes.

Do not underestimate your ability to cope with tragedy.
Since becoming an atheist I find that I hold people closer, enjoy the time I have with them more, soak in each and every second because anybody can be gone at any moment.

To many TBM's (my parents/in-laws included) let relationships go to shit b/c the think they will have another life in which to fix it.

I notice that all of them have suffered just as much, if not more, at the loss of their loved one.

I think that our body and brain knows they are gone for good, even if we try to trick ourselves by believing that we will see them again. Believing in something does not have the power to make it true.

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Posted by: Gay Philosopher ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 02:12AM

Hi Moment,

I'm sorry to hear about your mom's illness, and I hope that she'll get better and live a long and happy live with you. I have an idea of what you're going through, and my heart goes out to you.

No one knows what--if anything--happens after death. The philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer suggested that the approximate answer is: whatever happens before conception. That's about the best answer that anyone has been able to give.

I've spent over a decade studying this question from many different angles. I've made countless journeys through the forest of thought and emotion, I've always gotten lost, and I've always eventually returned to my starting point--the question--without knowing anything more than I did when I started, except that the question is a lot more complicated than it seems.

Imagine that I told you, "Don't worry. I had a near-death experience. I was out of my body. I read signs and heard conversations from a city 50 miles away from where my body was during cardiac arrest that were later proven true. Death is an illusion. I swear to you that we survive, and that we'll all be reunited after bodily death." If I told you a story such as that (which I invented just now), it would probably give you some comfort if it had actually happend to me, and I sincerely related my interpretation of it to you. It would be an anecdote. No one could prove or disprove it, but it could well allay your anxiety temporarily.

When we're confronted with a life-and-death question--Do we survive death?--we have a major obstacle: We desperately want the answer to be *yes*. That biases our thinking. Just last night, I was looking at some academic journal articles about near-death experiences. It's an empirical fact that the most eminent scientists that we have are, in the vast majority, atheists who believe that there's nothing after death and that we are our bodies, period. But then, we have anecdotes from individuals who have had near-death experiences and swear up and down that we survive death. Can we learn anything from them? Are they hallucinations, or are they glimpses of an afterlife?

No one knows, and there's no way to tell. We can't get outside of ourselves--out of the human condition--and somehow objectively determine The Truth. We're confronted with ambiguity, which forces us to draw our own conclusions, which will differ from others' conclusions based on both one's genetic makeup and developmental history. Generally, we tend to believe what we're taught to believe in early childhood, we fall away from strong faith until growing middle aged, and then (as empirical studies show) religiosity skyrocks. This isn't surprising, because it's at that point that most people keenly realize that they may not have that much more time left.

But religiosity is a red herring. It's irrelevant to the philosophical question, Do we survive death? So is the existence of a god, or many gods. The important question is survival. It's the decisive question that's like an unstoppable acid that cuts through every other question or problem.

A doctor who spent many years researching NDE's was asked what conclusion he drew from them, and he replied that he wouldn't be surprised if we survived death, nor would he be surprised if death meant oblivion. There are impressive aspects to the NDE, but there are problems, too. When you take everything together, there's no way to draw a reasonable conclusion. Despite what people dogmatically assert--either that we survive or that survival is impossible--no one really knows. We can't prove either case.

Let's say that we could, and did, prove that we survived death. Unfortunately, that wouldn't be the end of it. Let's say that we survived death, and were reunited with our relatives and pets in a blissful afterlife without any form of suffering, and with overflowing joy. Who is to say that 5,000 "years" later, we wouldn't die, and that would be the end of us? In other words, we don't really only want to survive death. We want an assurance of personal *immortality*, and the immortality of those we love. (I suspect that we're rather less concerned about people such as Stalin and Hitler, or would wish for their annihilation.)

Let's further say that we somehow proved that we were personally immortal. All of us. What would our existence be like? We'd presumably still be ourselves: we'd have our same memories--good and bad, happy and painful. We'd have our talents and limitations. Or would we be radically different? If all of our problems and limitations were somehow extirpated from us, then what? We'd be so radically different that it might not even make sense to call us the same person--if "person" is even the right word to use.

Put very roughly, we don't know if we're humans seeking something "spiritual," or "spirits" who have incarnated to have a human experience. From the human perspective--our perspective--though, there are lots of problems with the idea of survival. For example, we know from studying patients who have had their corpus callosum severed due to epilepsy, that the right and left hemispheres of the brain have a mind of their own. There have been cases reported where one man's right hand tried to hit his wife, while his left hand tried to stop his right hand. Contrary to how we seem to experience consciousness, empirical research suggests that consciousness isn't unified, but a set of different processes that are usually integrated together, giving the illusion of continuity.

Do you remember the Terri Schiavo case? (If not, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo_case.) At what point did Terri die? Did she die when she slipped into a persistent vegetative state? Did she die when her heart stopped beating and there was no brain activity? (Even then, some cells could continue to function for minutes or even hours, and certainly the bacteria that line our guts were digesting the surrounding tissue.) Dying is a process, more so than an event. I mention Terri to ask a question: If some people don't "survive" life, how likely is it that they'll survive death?

Another example is Ronald Reagan. Let's say that he survived death. Who would he be, then? A teenaged boy? A young actor? A father? The governor of California? The former President of the United States? The Alzheimer's victim? We assume, in the case of survival, that an individual would be reconsituted to their best possible state, but what basis do we have for making such an assumption apart from hope, fueled by fear of annihilation at death?

There has been some research done that suggests that alleles (different forms) of the DRD4 gene predispose people to believe or not believe in supernatural phenomena. I'd like to quote at length from pp. 77-8 of Lee M. Silver's book, _Challenging Nature_:

-- Begin Quote --

In comparing the personality traits of "normal" people with different forms of the DRD4 gene, David Comings, a medical geneticist at the City of Hope Medical Center in Duarte, California, made a remarkable discovery. Those individuals who inherited the most active forms of DRD4 were more likely to believe in miracles, the "inability of science to explain many things," and the idea that "one's life is directed by a spiritual force greater than any human being." In contrast, the least active forms of DRD4 predisposed people toward "rational materialism" and away from "spiritual acceptance." Dr. Comings, for one, was not surprised. He told me that he himself was clearly predisposed toward rationalism; by the age of 10, he had concluded that 'man made God rather than the other way around."

Results obtained in a number of different experimental and observational areas support and extend the significance of Comings's finding. In one experiment, the Swiss neurologist Peter Brugger fed the drug L-dopa--which increases dopamine levels in the brain--to people who were "skeptics" with regard to paranormal phenomena. With an externally induced dopamine "high," natural skeptics showed a newfound tendency to accept mystical explanations for unexplained phenomena. But the best-documented connections between dopamine, DRD4, and delusional or mystical experiences come from two types of observations made on schzophrenic patients. First, the amount of DRD4 in the brain of diagnosed schizophrenics is 500 percent higher than normal. Second, drugs like clozapine that block DRD4 and reduce the dopamine signal provide the most effective means of eliminating or reducing the hallucinogenic symptoms experienced by many of these patients."

One final point about DRD4 deserves mention. In 2002, the geneticist Robert Moyzis and his colleagues discovered that the most highly active form of this gene first appeared as a mutation in human populations between 30,000 to 50,000 years ago, and then spread rapidly through populations in Europe, Africa, and the Amercas. Without a doubt, this new mutation provided a specific advantage. The dopamine system has many functions, and we cannot know for sure, today, what the advantage might have been. But it is certainly intriguing that the appearance of the DRD4 mutation coincides with the earliest archeological evidence for a belief in the afterlife--accoutrements buried along with cadavers.

-- End Quote --

As depressing as that may seem, please keep in mind that this is coming from a scientist who is speculating about a scientific, evolutionary matter, and trying to relate it to religiosity. Even if his speculations are entirely correct, strictly speaking, just because a particular gene spread throughout the human population leading to greater or lesser levels of susceptibility to spiritual beliefs, doesn't mean that there *isn't* some type of spiritual reality--specifically, an afterlife.

From the human standpoint, we have to accept the findings of science. Whether or not there's "more" is a mystery. It's just as big of a mystery as what happened "before" the Big Bang. The Big Bang ushered in the fabric of space-time, so even the words that we use become metaphorical in trying to describe such a situation. Or, if you consider quantum mechanics--a topic about which I understand exactly nothing--I do know that there are multiple possible interpretations, and physicists argue over them. One thing that they don't argue about is results. Quantum mechanics makes predictions with devastating, jaw-dropping accuracy.

Moment, all of us (I shouldn't generalize; that would make me guilty of dichotomous--black and white--thinking; reality is messy and full of color, so to speak, including radiation invisible to the human eye) want the answer to the question that you wonder about. It tears you apart. It tears me apart. Others are able to put it out of their minds for a long time, so long as they're healthy. Inevitably, though, we will all die, and assuming that we still have minds that can think (i.e. are free of dementia and other neurological deficits), we're going to use them to ask the big questions of philosophy. Science gives us good answers in the empirical realm, the realm in which we, as humans--material "objects"--exist. Its aim is to describe, predict, and control physical phenomena, and its discoveries have extended and improved the quality of human life throughout the world.

But who is to say that there aren't other realms beyond that which science operates in? It seems arrogant to me for our puny minds to suggest that what we see is all that there is. Sure, there's "dark matter" and lots of physical theories that none of us will understand, and that scientists would say have nothing to do with the question of surviving death anyway. But if they accept that there are things that they don't understand, why not accept the possibility that there may be an afterlife?

The reason that they're reluctant to do so--or at least one of them--seems to me to be that they have no way of falsifying it. They have no way of testing it, and so it fits outside the realm in which science operates.

Double blind prayer experiments have failed to show that prayer has any efficacy. Generally, science has tended to kill off spiritual belief in the same way that antibiotics kill bacteria. As science advances, it seems that religion retreats. We don't burn "witches" at the stake anymore. We don't treat epileptics foaming at the mouth during a grand mal seizure as if they were possessed by "demons."

However, speaking as a philosopher, it's not logically impossible that there could be an afterlife. Even Richard Dawkins calls himself an agnostic, strictly speaking. To call himself an atheist would put the burden of proof on him to prove that there is no "God." He knows that he can't do that. But we, who want there to be an afterlife, should be equally humble in acknowledging that we can't prove that there is an afterlife. We can hope. We can investigate. We can take heart in the stories told on www.near-death.com and www.nderf.org, or the stories told by near-death experiencers on YouTube. Will those pursuade you?

From personal experience, my belief in the possibility of an afterlife waxes and wanes with my emotional state. If I'm happy, I tend to be more optimistic. If I'm miserable and suffering, I tend to think that this life is all that there is--the ultimate tragedy. I tell you as sincerely as I can: I simply don't know what the answer to the greatest question is, and I don't believe that there's any way *to* know.

To a large degree, we're forced to grapple with this demon on our own. There are a lot of bitter people who have realized that a religion, such as Mormonism, is false, and proceed to decide that there is neither a god nor an afterlife. They're angry. They've been lied to, and many of them have lived their entire lives within a lie, donating decades to a false church. Their anger is understandable. But maybe they're throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I wish that I could give you an answer that would comfort you. I wish that I had such an answer for myself. People who have full-blown, "transcendent" NDE's, are *convinced* that we survive death, but there are very few of them, and obviously, we're not among them. Even if their interpretation is wrong, and we're annihilated at death, wouldn't it be great to live the rest of one's life feeling certain that we survive and not plagued by existential anxiety? For most of us, that's not an option.

We're forced to decide for ourselves, and what we believe will tend to fluctuate. It's true that many people go happily along with their lives and take comfort in the tenets of their religions, largely unconcerned with the question, but for those of us without the road map of a religion--a human invention--to fall back on, we have to create our own map as best we can, and that's not easy. It summons our deepest resources. It feels us feeling alienated from our friends and neighbors, as if we knew a secret--a fearsome secret--that they didn't know, one that we dare not share with them for fear of being ostracized.

There's one more thought that I'd like to share with you, Moment, but it's too complicated to try to articulate here. Go to http://library.nu. Create an account for yourself. Then, do a search on the book "Rephrasing Heidegger." Download and extract it. (If you need help, feel free to e-mail me.) Read the first chapter. Learn a little about phenomenology. The very structure of our brains (at least, normal, well-functioning ones) seems to impose a type of road map on the world, like a stamp imprinted on soft wax. We use this structure to make sense of the world.

It's not impossible that William James was right: that our brains are "reducing valves" for consciousness, that consciousness exists apart from the brain, but is filtered by it. While human (I'm speaking either metaphorically or literally, but I have no idea of knowing which is the case), everything that science tells us is valid. But freed from the physical body, perhaps we'll learn that we are far greater, "spiritual" beings than we ever imagined, and that this brief existence that is human life is just one bump along an immortal existence and--best of all--that things will get better, and better, and better.

Maybe the real message of the NDE is both a spiritually hopeful *and* a practical one: Life courageously, and die courageously. All the rest will take care of itself, whatever the answer to the greatest question is.

Let me add one more thing. I experienced the death of a close, gay, ex-Mormon friend due to suicide. He had everything going for him: he was a writer who would make Camus envious. He had a brilliant mind, and at various times was in law school or an MBA program. He was a brilliant cellist, too. And wouldn't you know it? He was knockout handsome. But none of it helped him in the end, Moment. All he ever wanted was to find the love of his life and live happily ever after. He poured his entire personality into reaching that goal, and failed--again and again--until he gave up, and killed himself.

When I found out, my first reaction was one of disbelief, then shock, then guilt ("Could I have done something? If only I'd known, I'd have dropped everything and..."), then a sense of profound loss, then recollections about him and how much he meant to me... I loved him so very much, but he's gone, and I, too, wonder, if I'll ever see that great being again. It hurts. Time doesn't heal. It just makes us forget. It encysts. There really is no right or wrong way to go through the grieving process. The closer that the person is to us, the more a loss drains our world of meaning (a sense of joy and purpose). It turns our world upside down. And no matter what we do, we know that we can't bring that person that we loved so much back.

Nearly all of us are terrified of death. We react to that terror in different ways. Some of us deny it. Others are paralyzed by it. Others make up stories about an afterlife (without realizing that that's what they're doing) to coddle themselves or, more often, they read New Age books such as those of Brian Weiss about ascended masters and incarnating to learn lessons and reincarnation and so on, and find comfort in them.

Don't worry about religions and what they have to say about an afterlife. The fact that they say different things demonstrates that their accounts are logically contradictory, which leaves us doubting them, with good reason. Instead, maybe one good way to deal with the fear of death (as oblivion) is to make certain that you tell your mother how much you love her, and show it. Don't forget to love yourself, too. And your friends. And your hobbies. And music. And the fact that you're 17 and have a lifetime ahead. Make it a great life, Moment, so that as Nikos Kazantsakis wrote, when it's over, regardless of what--if anything--happens after death, you'll leave death with nothing but a "burned out castle."

I have another suggestion that may help, and this will sound very strange coming from a philosopher. Instead of focusing on your thoughts, focus on *action* in the real world. Go and do things that you love. Move your muscles. Volunteer. Help people. But only do those things if you enjoy them. Love yourself, first and foremost, and don't sacrifice your own happiness for anyone else.

If things get bad, seek out the help of a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist. Read. Educate yourself. Think for yourself. None of this is easy, but if you can do these things consistently, over time, the chances are high that you're going to become resilient, self-determining, and, with the smallest bit of luck, successful and happy. Happiness has its ups and downs, but it's the journey and goal that matter, not necessarily reaching it.

This life is often a bumpy ride. Please remember one final thing, and remember it well: we are *all* in this together. We were all born. We will all die. All of us are at different points along that journey, some closer to the unknown horizon than others. We don't know what that horizon holds: eternal oblivion, or a portal into a heavely existence in the next step of eternal progression (which I don't mean in any way to associate with the Mormon idea). We are all in this ship--the Titanic--together. We know that it will founder. Even if we get on a life raft, we know that we'll eventually die. No one is spared. The next time that you go to a crowded bookstore or mall, look around at all of the people, and tell yourself that in one century, probably not a single person that you can see will still be alive, including you. That may be good or bad. We don't know.

And this is just the barest overview about your question. Again, the question is far more nuanced and complicated than we can even imagine. One crucial decision that you're going to need to make at some point is this: What's more important to me--comfort or truth, especially if the truth winds up not being comforting? The tricky part to the question is that with the question of life after death, we don't seem to have any way of knowing either way, and so we live with anxiety--some more so than others, depending on our genes and developmental history, as well as support structure and culture.

I wish that I could give you more than this--that I could give you a certain foundation for survival on which you could rest all your hopes securely, but I'm only human, just like you and everyone else here. No one knows the answer, and be suspicious of anyone who claims to. I want there to be more, and I hope that there is, but in the end, I confess that I don't know.

I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that this message has helped you in any way, but I'd really like to know what your reaction is to it.

I wish you peace of mind, strength, courage, nurturing relationships, the health of you and your mother, a long, happy, fun, and rewarding life, love, knowledge, and success. In your case there's every reason to feel confident that the best lies ahead of you. Embrace life and love your fate, as Nietzsche would say--or better yet, as I would put it: *create* it!

Steve

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Posted by: givemethismoment ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 03:10AM

Steve,

Not only have you TRULY helped me and put my mind at ease, I'm pretty sure you've helped me study for my AP Psych class, too! haha.

I cannot begin to express to you my feelings after reading this post. You truly brought me to tears - in only the best of ways. Thank you so much, I am honored that you took the time to respond in such an eloquent, thoughtful way.

I am going to save this to my computer and I will revisit this so often it would astound you. I'm actually going to send you an email, because I'd like to limit what I put on a public forum, but I do want to publically express my gratitude for this post. Thank you so much.

ETA: I can't figure out how to find someone's email address on here. can anyone help me out?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2011 03:15AM by givemethismoment.

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Posted by: saviorself ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 04:07AM

The e-mail addresses are not published and therefore not available. Only if the poster chooses to put his/her e-mail address in a post will it be visible to you.

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Posted by: mtnmdwcookiemonster ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 06:12AM

"There are impressive aspects to the NDE, but there are problems, too. When you take everything together, there's no way to draw a reasonable conclusion. When you take everything together, there's no way to draw a reasonable conclusion."

False.

NDE is not "impressive". We can reasonably conclude that there is no good evidence for after life at all. I imagine you read Dawkins and Hitchens. They explain well how we can conclude logically that there is no reason to believe in an after life. I am convinced that it is most logical to be a 6 out of 7, or 6.9 of 7 that there is no afterlife or god. We have to allow room for additional information if some actual evidence of an afterlife exists. However, there is no empirical reliable evidence for such at all.
What do you mean we can't draw a conclusion about the reasonableness of there being an afterlife? No evidence for something does not mean there is a 50/50 chance of it being true. Ideas of an afterlife should be dismissed. As Hitchens argues basically- that which is offered without evidence can (and should be) dismissed without evidence. There is no evidence that there is not a soda machine on Pluto, as the classic example goes. Still, that does not mean that there is a 50/50 chance of there being one there. Just because we don't have proof that a soda machine does not exist on Pluto, does not mean that we should consider such an absurd thing likely. Nor should we consider anything that does not have evidence true because we can't prove the thing untrue.

I don't understand how others don't see it that way, but different strokes for different folks is ok. People can believe whatever they want, but that doesn't make the belief true or reasonable. I wonder what you, or others who think that believing in the after life or god is reasonable think about that. I am very curious about how people think about that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2011 06:26AM by mtnmdwcookiemonster.

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Posted by: Gay Philosopher ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 04:22AM

Hi Moment,

Wow--I wasn't expecting that. :) I'm glad and blushing a bit!

You can reach me at gayphilosopher@gmail.com.

Take care, and don't worry. You're going to be all right.

Steve

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Posted by: Gay Philosopher ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 06:35AM

Hi CookieMonster,

If I weren't a philosopher, I'd agree with you straight away and that would be the end of the discussion. However, I've been fortunate to acquire some methods with which to think about these things, thanks to Kant and his successors, culminating (thus far) in Husserl and Heidegger. It's 5:31 am at the moment, and I really need to get some rest, but once I've regained consciousness (and it's important to note that as humans, we're not simply conscious or unconscious, but the states of our consciousness fluctuate drastically over time), I'll try my best to explain why I believe that your scientific viewpoint is extremely limited. I propose to do this both on empirical and phenomenological grounds, primarily, as clearly as I know how.

Hold on to your hat. :-)

Steve

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Posted by: larry john ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 08:10AM

When I had that bike accident as a child and embraced by the light, that is all it was and I came to concious.
Then as weeks/months went by re-occuring dream of the
light then in the midst of the light I saw MORONI
pointing to the salt lake temple. Then Months after that
gazing upto heavens I felt inspired to caculate by some
occult means dealing with astrology/and astromony came up
with 16 for baptism into the church of that temple,
25 married in the temple,
40 black cloud. ( excomunicated from the church)

All this happen and I believe I made it happen and attracted
the missionaries at the right time when shifted from the
bush into the city 8 hours away.


Tho a hit on the head can do strange things.
Either we have a spirit or as the bible says the dead are concious of nothing and there is nothing after we are dead
until the resurrection...

I like to think my experience was real and without Moroni
I never knew christ. To many distractions with the angel
thing. It wasnt until excomunication and the sheer shunning
that made it impossible to return even after repentance
that I found the real jesus. Since I fond the real jesus
I dont know who or what happen to me in that accident
and if that light that later in dreams revealed an angel
was moroni or anything that originally led me to accept
mormonism.... I simply didnt know christ the way I do now.

Its when the chips are low and there is no way back to
the shunning judgmental mormonism of self-rightousness
and snobbery, that I had to figure the bump on the head
that had something to do with my mental illness today
that the true jesus would carry me during tribulation.

No angel of mormonism is christ and without the church
the angels are a myth of my imagination who abandoned me
in other spirit filled relegions..

I learnt recently that the bible revealing the mark sealing
of the holyghost did not say it related to true sabbath
saturday in its sealing that stopped me baptised in Seven
day aventist church, nor sealing of temples and temple
marrige in mormonism. NOthing does the bible say about
the sealing but the holy ghost is all we need to be saved
in christ, a pure heart no matter what relegion preferbly
in christ...

If a church brings us to greater morals fine but good
on those who can live a high moral life without mormonism
and love jesus, surely a loving god want reject them
because they dont sing hymns to false prophets.
Tho living prophets that are true could be better or above
the dead prophets of the bible, but we answer to them
and it gets confusing as its better to answer only to
jesus the royal high priest. The priesthood unto man
is robbing god of priesthood. Where ever there is priesthood
there is control and great dogma.

Tho we need to get to know jesus and a spirit filled
church can do more good than a church that goes on about
perverted pligomist prophets. Apartently pligomany even
with King David was not approved of God but David did it
anyway because he was king and messed up commited adultary
after 300 wives wasnt enough for him. It never worked
nor in joe smiths time so why would god bring it back..

Angels of poligmany, or what I say now using the bible
accept no other angel preaching another message than the
bible word, or that church will be accursed....

The devil might of set me up or my imagination played tricks.
Since out of mormonism and come to know the real jesus
I have no more foolish imaginations with angels except
I still believe in them, but we dont have to be married
to become above the angels or even need to become gods
as all who are with christ saved, from all churches that
love jesus and keep his commandments to the best of their
understanding will be saved.....

Surely god will not reject good people who live the commandments and even worship in catholic pagen sunday
that to aventist is breaking a commandment.
Surely its about the holyghost sealing, not sabbath or
temples and priesthood...

That is my understanding at present and free's me from
all legalistic relegions. I might be wrong but the mind
can sure play tricks when we are pressured to believe
the true church means all others are wrong..

We dont always get it right with relegion or marrige.
So do we give up or do we realize our self journey
jesus still loves us and it doesnt matter what church
as long as we do our best and live by grace and hope..

all the best mate with your self-discovery journey.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 08:38AM

All Christians believe that they will be reunited with their loved ones in the afterlife. Even many non-Christians believe this. You could make an appointment with any mainstream Christian pastor, and that pastor would be happy to explain this to you.

Remember what Jesus is recorded to have said to the man beside him as they were both dying on the cross -- "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:39-43)

If you watch the 2000 movie Gladiator (w/Russell Crowe) at the end of the movie you will see the gladiator Maximus rejoining his family in the afterlife (the Roman pagan Elysian Fields) as he dies.

In my opinion this is one of the most crushing, inhumane beliefs that the Mormon church teaches -- that if you fall away from the church, you may be denied the opportunity of seeing your family in the afterlife.

Please remember that belief in an afterlife preceeded Mormonism by at least a couple of thousand years! (if not far longer than that.)

I'm reading a book right now that you may find comforting. It's called "Glimpses of Eternity" by Raymond Moody. The topic matter is shared death experiences, where family members on occasion are able to share the experience of their loved one crossing over and rejoining loved ones.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2011 10:41PM by summer.

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Posted by: snb ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 08:58PM

...is another person's reality. Wouldn't it be just as crushing for a Muslim to find out that the Qu'ran was written by a cultish child molester and that God and the afterlife probably don't exist?

However, I couldn't agree more with you (and everybody else who expressed this sentiment) that the belief in family after death is ubiquitous. It is odd that Mormons preach that they are the only ones who believe in it.

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Posted by: melissa3839 ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 09:12AM

It really depends where you are from and how you are raised. There are so many different religions, and they all say crazy things.

I left the church, but I still believe in God and an afterlife. It drives me bananas how people just assume that because ALL religious books have "inaccuracies"--- it means there is no God. I fail to see how they work that out.

Since when has ANYTHING ever been perfect and completely air-tight? Every part of life that I have ever experienced has been half true/accurate, and half full of assumptions and inaccuracies.

Ever play that game where everyone stands in a long line, and the person at the end whispers in someone's ear, and the message is passed down the long row of people? By the time it gets to the last person, the message is almost always completely distorted, and nothing like the original. Most of the time, it doesn't even make sense!

But that doesn't mean the original message was never said. Or that it wasn't true.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2011 09:15AM by melissa3839.

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Posted by: axeldc ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 09:34AM

There are no answers to your questions. The LDS Church pretends to have their answers, but if you are leaving the church, I assume you no longer believe their answers.

To the first part about losing out, do you believe that the LDS Church is what it pretends to be? If you do, go back to church and pray for your soul. The only way to tap into the LDS-promised blessings is to follow their prescription.

If you believe they are not the true church, then going to church won't help you at all. If they don't have the keys, then they have no power to help you.

If you are not sure, then you need to do more research and meditation. What brought you to question them? Most people here believe that the evidence is against their claims, and decided not to dedicate their lives to what we believe to be a sham.

As for the afterlife, as an agnostic I say, "I don't know, and neither do you." The only way to respond is to live your life the best way you see fit and hope for the best. As long as you are good to other people and good to yourself, that's all you can ask for The rest will have to work itself out one way or another.

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Posted by: imaworkinonit ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 01:39PM

this is what I came up with:

It didn't matter if there was an afterlife or not. The loss was the same. I wouldn't see this person for the rest of my human life, whether there was an afterlife or not.

If there WAS an afterlife, I would see this person again, after death. I no longer believed that adherance to a particular set of beliefs would affect our ability to associate with each other. Although I don't really believe that will happen, it would be a very pleasant surprise to survive death.

If there was NO afterlife, I would cease to exist, and I wouldn't know the difference or feel the loss any more.


So, either way, I came to believe that the loss of a loved one is for this life ONLY. In that way, I'm really on the same page with anyone who believes in an afterlife.

And that loss can sometimes be huge. Knowing that you'll see your loved one in just another 40 years, or 60 years, really doesn't change the fact that you miss them NOW. I know it gives some people hope and comfort to believe they'll see them again, and that's fine, whether it's accurate or not. But I also think it's helpful to recognize the loss, grieve it appropriately, and then live for THIS life instead of the next. (instead of minimizing the loss as only temporary, or living a life in such a way as to earn the "reward" of being together again).

I personally don't believe in an afterlife. But I don't really think of those people who have passed on as being completely GONE, either. Their influence lives on in my life, and I carry some of their genes.

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Posted by: ANON ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 01:50PM

"...but if I'm denying the church then I have to deny the entire thing - including the idea that families can be together forever."

WHY?

Who said so? ...The church? ...are they saying "It's Us or nobody!"

There are thousands of people who say they have experienced "Near Death Experiences" where they were reunited with their loved ones in a beautiful (non-Mormon) afterlife. Who really knows if NDEs are real or not, put they prove that the Mormon church isn't your only source of comfort---if that is what you seek.

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Posted by: freedomissweet ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 03:39PM

All I know is that its only the mormons who teach life after death while at the same time teach that you won't be with your families.

Other churches talk about 'going home' at funeral services, but mo's are always preaching that you wont be with your family if they don't stay & pay in the church.

For me I still have my christian beliefs (which I had before being a mo) and feel very strongly that there is life after death and we can only be happy if we are with those we love (heaven).

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Posted by: brefots ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 03:50PM

...but I didn't really believe in an afterlife when I lost a teacher of tremendous importance in my life. When people told me I'd see him again I felt no comfort because it just didn't ring true to me. You are absolutely right in your suspicion that death is more scary and painful to contemplate from an unbelievers point of view. It does indeed hurt like hell but you do get over it. The thing is though, can we really believe in life after death merely because we wish it were so? Can we really believe in anything merely because we wish it to be true? Speaking for myself I cannot, that would only be pretense and deciet.

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Posted by: EverAndAnon ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 08:20PM

Making sense of the loss that death brings can be very difficult.

Religions are institutions for shaping and controlling people's behavior. They offer their versions of 'the answers' to all those big things in life that really need answering.

In return for following their rules, they promise a better life. If not now, then perhaps after you die.

One thing that we know is that NDEs (near death experiences) reflect the person's views of what death is like.

People report extremly different experiences. They reflect their culture and religion. But they don't even come close to be consistant.

For example,

"One of the most interesting cases of the effects of karma manifesting in an NDE is in case #8, the case of `Kodien'. In this case, the Chinese merit-making practices Kodien (a Chinese-Thai) followed are rejected in favor of the Thai ones. Kodien was a Chinese person raised Thailand. His NDE seems to reveal that he was actually more drawn to the Thai ways of creating merit than to those of his own subculture. That an NDE of a person torn between two cultures should exhibit features of both suggests that it is not culture that determines NDE phenomenology, but rather that people's NDEs reveal what their expectations are concerning what death will be like, even when these expectations are held subconsciously, or are influenced by more than one culture. Atwater (1994) has found that NDEs which manifest visions of the classical western hell are much more likely to occur in the Southeast part of he U.S., the so-called `Bible belt', where the literal veracity of the Bible is often taken for granted. Christianity teaches that the only options are those of heaven and hell. For a person guided by this belief, we suggest, the choice of which they will enter happens according to the expectations created by their own feelings regarding their behaviors during their lives. Thai NDEs, with their frequent visions of hell, seem to confirm this interpretation.

The case of Kodien seems to rule out culture per se as the determinative factor in shaping NDE phenomenology. The fact that Thai (and Indian) NDEs do not follow the typical, Western, progression reflected by the Ring Scale seems to rule out the possibility that there is any such thing as an ideal or normal NDE scenario, except within a particular cultural context."

http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm

NDEs manifested within certain, special, groups have been studied that reveal typical variations. Pediatric NDEs (Morse, 1985), and those of pre-literate cultures, as well as those of India (Pasricha, 1986), Africa (Morse, 1992) have all been looked at, and patterns have been discerned in each group. However, the most common approach to discussing their typical features has been to compare them to the typical Western NDE; to the pattern shown in the Ring Scale. We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient.

The most common first phase of Western NDEs is an Out-of-Body Experience (an OBE). An equally common first phase of Thai NDEs is a visitation by a messenger of some kind, most often a Yamatoot, one of the servants of Yama (all ten cases). The mythology of Yama and his servants was imported from India along with much of the Hindu/Vedic pantheon, and it can still be found in contemporary Indian NDEs (Pasricha, 1986). Phenomenologically, the appearance of a herald of death and an OBE could not be more disparate. Interestingly, OBEs in Thai NDEs tend to immediately precede meetings with Yamatoots. Their functions could be the same: to convey the news that one has died."

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 09:25PM

I suffered through this as well; a few months ago I had an absolute panicky breakdown because I started thinking about death and couldn't stop.

I am an atheist, I will be very surprised (MAJOR understatement) if I die and it isn't the "end." I have ZERO expectations for anything after death.

When I started to really think about death, however, I freaked out. I wanted to believe that I would live with my loved ones after we died. That is a very beautiful thought (and I think it keeps a lot of people in the mormon church, or in any church. It's so comforting).

BUT I know that there is NO evidence for a god, for an afterlife. Science has shown that they can explain the creation of the universe and the creation of life without bringing any god or other "supernatural forces" into the equation.

I sobbed and had a panic attack when I realized that this life was "it." I believe I know what you are going through.

Here is what helped me. Richard Dawkins, Mark Twain, and a changing perspective...This is what I wrote in my journal:

"Now, I have discovered the lies and fraud that mormonism is based on, and I am no longer a member of a brainwashing cult. I have applied the same critical thinking skills that I used to study myself out of mormonism, to the idea of god in general. I came to the conclusion that it is highly, HIGHLY UNLIKELY that there is a god at all. I have read many books about the earth, evolution, the universe, space and time, and I have felt more wonder, awe and joy of being alive than I ever did in years of scripture-reading or praying. I no longer believe in any kind of "afterlife," and I went through hell trying to come to terms with that. Then I came to this conclusion, with the help of Richard Dawkins and Mark Twain: Dying doesn't scare me in the least. I was dead for a long time before I was born, and "suffered not the slightest inconvenience from it." Death is just going back to that state of non-existence. I won't know I'm dead, because I will no longer exist. The reality and logic of that truth is more comforting than a lie. Also, who am I to complain that I won't have "eternal life"? It's like a child in the middle of eating a cupcake, crying because he can't have another. Just enjoy the one you've got! (Thanks to Dawkins for that one.)

As for losing loved ones, it just sucks. It does. I want to be with them forever, but I won't be. I will be with them until they, or I die. So I have come to appreciate them MORE in the present and enjoy being with them NOW. Someday when they die, they will still live in my memory, and in the memory of others who loved them."

I don't know if this will help at all, it was life-changing for me but reading over it, it isn't very profound. You might need to find a different way of looking at death. Just don't be afraid to think about it. I think that pushing down fears and worries only makes them worse later. Give yourself permission to feel scared and sad.

Here is a podcast for atheists, called "Grief without God." I loved it. Atheists who have suffered losses talk about how they grieved without a belief in god or an afterlife.

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Posted by: anon ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 09:27PM


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Posted by: ricky25 ( )
Date: February 27, 2011 10:58PM

All your relationships are eternal.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHuOjs9JpUI

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