With Shannon's thread today on telling the MP to cease and desist (yay, Shannon!) and thinking about Deb's and Cheryl's experience, I am wondering again if missionaries are especially persistent with women? I don't read as often from men on the board that missionaries are hassling them. I'm just wondering what the experience of women on the board is and what they might think is behind this. Am I mistaken or is there really the difference I am perceiving?

It says a lot to me about sexism and lack of taking women seriously as deserving of respect in Mormonism.

I think missionaries are trained from birth to view women as more spiritual. This leads them to put a lot effort into women who investigate the TSCC. Of the 6 "converts" in our ward since 2004, only one was male. The other 5 were single, middle aged women.

Also, isn't it a characteristic of a cult to focus on women for conversion?

YES, and I can honestly state they are gifted as far as having that "gift of gab" And yes, I honestly believe that they prey on women and then again women in vulnerable situations. First one I met could have sold Ice to an Eskimo and the eskimo may have came back for more.

In all honesty, if you want them to go away, you have to have them over to your house, and come on to them. I don't know if you are married or not, but if you are single, the only way to get them to stop, is if you have them over, put on something erotic, and see if they will go for it. Suggest a 3 some with all three of you, and offer a bubble bath.

I promise the following will happen.

1. they will flip out and run never to call or return again.

2. they will consider your offer and you then get them sent home by telling the local bishop.

3. you will have the time of your life in a 3 some with 2 of the participants virgins. Make sure you make it extra nasty for them so they hold this up as what to expect when they get home and get married. Screw them up for life.

This thread is about disrespect for women, and apparently you are the perfect example of this.

Maybe you think you are clever, but a woman doesn't need to disrespect HERSELF in the way you are suggesting in order to say "NO" to a religion.

Go get your jollies somewhere else, dude.

They're going to need an awful lot of wimminz in their 'heaven'...

I will bet you anything that most of the male missionaries are especially persistent with young, hot women with big tits.

Just saying.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 06:00PM by MJ.

I can attest to that!! ;) lol

Quite possibly, deb. They could figure that women are easier to push around and/or are too polite to tell them to get lost.

most of us that served were 19-21 year old virgins that for the first time we were going out in the world. I loved tracting in the morning because it meant a greater chance of catching someone in their bathrobe answering the door. I loved tracting in the summer because they would feel sorry for you and let you in their house to give you some water (I was in the south) and that gave us a chance to talk.

I had more opportunity to flirt with women on my mission that my entire life up to that point. More than once I had to walk out of a situation because I felt such strong emotion. I was at my sexual prime, and had no release.

To a missionary, just talking to women, and having them respond at all in kind, is a thrill. Almost like forbidden fruit. I wanted to taste, and unfortunatly I did not. There were at least 2 married ladies in wards and branches I served that came on to me, or at least to me I thought that was what they are doing. looking back, they may have just been nice to me and I took it as attraction. I was too screwed up to know for sure. If a woman got to close when she talked to me, I would take it as she was hitting on me.

kc, if you do not mind me asking, where in the deep south were you sent during your mission.??

My buddy was in Arkansas in 90-91

When I was a missionary, I found it significantly more effective when the man of a household converted than when the women only converted. Of course, the women would always convert first, but when the men were baptized, generally the entire family would follow shortly. This translated directly into high numbers and a perceived sense of spirituality and elitism.

...except, as MJ said, if the girl was hot. Then I had all the energy in the world to teach lessons to her.

As far as some of the stories you hear on here, I would read them with a grain of salt. When someone is venting to a group of sympathetic listeners, there is a tendency to exaggerate. It is my opinion that this happens on here more often than not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 07:51PM by snb.

snb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When I was a missionary, I found it significantly
> more effective when the man of a household
> converted than when the women only converted. Of
> course, the women would always convert first, but
> when the men were baptized, generally the entire
> family would follow shortly. This translated
> directly into high numbers and a perceived sense
> of spirituality and elitism.
>
> ...except, as MJ said, if the girl was hot. Then
> I had all the energy in the world to teach lessons
> to her.
>
> As far as some of the stories you hear on here, I
> would read them with a grain of salt. When
> someone is venting to a group of sympathetic
> listeners, there is a tendency to exaggerate. It
> is my opinion that this happens on here more often
> than not.

I agree with your assessment in your last comment.

snb Wrote:


> As far as some of the stories you hear on here, I
> would read them with a grain of salt. When
> someone is venting to a group of sympathetic
> listeners, there is a tendency to exaggerate. It
> is my opinion that this happens on here more often
> than not.

Perhaps. But also consider that there is a history of women's complaints of abuse being minimized and trivialized. The opposite danger of exaggeration is to discount. I think men in particular don't "get" that what a man might not think twice about because of is size, strength, and training, a woman might experience much differently and feel more vulnerable.

I doubt any of those things play into the rhetorhic thrown around on a recovery message board. My status as male doesn't make the exaggeration any more or any less real, or my perception any different.

I don't know of any story I can remember that had descriptions of the size, strength, or training of the Mormons who were harassing them, so I'm not sure how I could have misperceived those aspects of the story.

I doubt the same over the top stories when they come from men.

Besides that, I discount the stories, but on my own time. There is no way I could verify any of the information posted here, and since I'm skeptical by nature, I just stay out of it.

In the end, I doubt these stories are 100% true, the people in question need the recovery regardless.

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> snb Wrote:
>
>
> > As far as some of the stories you hear on here,
> I
> > would read them with a grain of salt. When
> > someone is venting to a group of sympathetic
> > listeners, there is a tendency to exaggerate.
> It
> > is my opinion that this happens on here more
> often
> > than not.
>
> Perhaps. But also consider that there is a history
> of women's complaints of abuse being minimized and
> trivialized. The opposite danger of exaggeration
> is to discount. I think men in particular don't
> "get" that what a man might not think twice about
> because of is size, strength, and training, a
> woman might experience much differently and feel
> more vulnerable.


Clearly, he did not specify "woman's complaints of abuse" -- he was making a general statement and I agree with him on the general statement.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:

> Clearly, he did not specify "woman's complaints of
> abuse" -- he was making a general statement and I
> agree with him on the general statement.

I don't disagree that people sometimes exaggerate. I was also bringing up the fact that there is a history of dismissing women's complaints and that men make different unconscious assumptions about safety because of their size and training. A situation that may feel like no big deal to a man could feel much more threatening to a woman.

As a male I often forget this in talking with women and I'm certainly not alone. Take that, Mormon attitudes toward women, and the stories on the board about overly persistent missionaries--usually male--and it brought up the question I asked.

Of course, the great majority of missionaries are male and I suppose to get a fair comparison we'd have to have compare male and female missionaries and persistence with women. Still, I am very aware that even as old and fat as I am, if I become angry, a missionary *will* back off. In fact, I don't even have to become angry, because we all know the potential is there for some hurt. I don't think women on the whole have that luxury--unless they are really good with a garden hose :-)

Men are often bigger stronger and trained to assert their power and women often feel vulnerable in situations where men have authority or the advantage of surprise.

But I don't think individual men or women necessarily take all of this into account when they're in a mishie-convert situation. They are reacting to their training and upbringing. Reactions are instantaneous and don't always involve deep analysis.

It's a matter of stimulus-->response. Thinking about size, power, and training might never enter into the equation.

The idea is to get the man to convert, as they are more likely to have the women and children follow.

However, this is what I have observed and experienced:
Women are used to get to the men in the home. The missionaries typically don't want to talk to the women, they want to talk to the man, especially if he is a member.

Single women are considered easy targets for baptism.

The only problem I ever had with missionaries since I left the LDS Church were with the ones that didn't want to believe what I told them, and insisted on speaking to my husband, who, at the time, was not available.

Might just be me, but I never sensed the same respect for women that priesthood holding men had for other priesthood holding men in the LDS Church. I found they could understand each other but not a woman.

LD$ have no idea of equal or respectful treatment of women.

atheist&happy:-) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LD$ have no idea of equal or respectful treatment
> of women.

That answers the question posed in a nutshell. From childhood, mormon males are taught that women are supposed to "obey the p-hood"...it's ingrained by the time they are 19.

Well, no exaggerations here. I came on this board app. 4 wks. ago b/c, while investigating and being given the lessons, I was so convinced, that the euphoria was bubbling and I'd had/found a new discovery as far as the bible, faith, etc. I was reading BOM, Gp, and anything else I could read. Commited 2 times, then backed out altogether. Between 1,2 commitment and even after I was being, as you state, love-bombed. The aggressiveness, friendliness, as well as persuaviness was there. After committing, I was hearing from them several times a week. It took informing them 2, maybe 3 times before they became more subtle and basically let me be. I don't totally blame these young people b/c I remember being of their age(s). I blame the superiors who basically lead the young guys/gals into thinking this is the correct approach. (or it appears this way)"NO means NO"

Also:
Don't believe anything you read and only half of what you see! :-) (Favorite saying of a high school teacher over 50 yrs ago!)

Always remember the hand that rocks the cradle..get the women and there's a good chance you get everyone.

stormy

when we've told them to stay away. This was the case every single time they came onto the property for over thirty years.

There's no need to exaggerate the number of years since anything over one or two makes them into deluded fools in my opinion. I don't know of any other church which comes back longterm over decades to harass to harass former members. Makes them look like dimwits or at least fanatical cultists.

Mormon women are taught to uphold the priesthood. Mormon men are taught to use what they think is priesthood power.

It makes sense to me that anyone subjected to years of that kind of training would be affected by it. The women would be likely to feel intimidated and men would likely feel empowered.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 09:25AM by Cheryl.

I think it all depends on the authority (MP) over the mishies. In my mission we were forbidden to purposely tract into women under one mission president. If a woman decided to investigate we were to turn her over to the sisters if at all possible. I am sure it was to avoid sexual fiascoes which happened all the time anyway. For me, as a man I always focused more on the men because A) it was more natural and B)I didn't want to condemn a woman to a lonely conversion without her husband. I think it is true that it works better for the family if the man converts first. Though it is best if no one converts at all.

I think there are a few reasons for this:

1) Most missionaries are young men, so they are more interested in talking to young women.

2) Most men are intimidated by other men. A woman may yell at you or tell you "no", but another guy will slug you if you push too hard.

3) Most straight men are afraid of appearing gay. Sharing emotional and spiritual experiences with another guy is just too much intimacy for them. They may male bond with their brothers or close guy friends, but doing this with strange men is not normal for them. Sharing with women feels more comfortable and less socially taboo.

I would say that part of that depends on the culture of the missionary and the culture of the country (or state for that matter) in which he/she is serving. Where I served talking with males was much more comfortable than with the female because it was a firmly patriarch-based culture.

..especially the pretty ones. We would never admit it, but if we ran into a pretty lady, she'd be at the top of our list. It was an unspoken thing. What do you expect from 19 year old boys.

Why are there no guys at Temple Square? I see only good looking ladies at Temple Square?

Still don't understand ALL of the persistance, aggressiveness, etc. It's not as if they'll get commission as a car salemsman or a realtor. Maybe they could pick up a commission based career. Who knows, they may rack up.

I've met some like that in Utah. They are probably the natural salesmen, who have honed their skills on their mission. And they can take rejection in their stride.

also understand that the whole TSCC system is based on one-up-man-ship, being/looking/appearing better than the other missionaries, striving for position and leadership, etc. District leaders, Zone Leaders, AP's - all get more privaleges (i.e. freedom, power, respect, a car, bragging rights). The mission field is like a microcosym of the church. The bastards who developed this ponzi scheme are genious, but evil, because they tapp into mans basic desires for greed, power, fame, wealth, and influence. The very things that the temple and BOM teach against, and at the bulwark of this system. It's an evil god forsaken cult. They are masters of illusion, appearance, and deception. They are experts at influecing basic human emotion for their gain.

yes,It is horrible that the system of lds and it's leaders @ the top appear to manipulate people in their church. It's almost like a form of "racketeering(just legal)and that it just trinkles down. LE who started coming around @ first app. 5 mos. ago, is now ZL. He's older than most. I think 28 so therefore he had it together more than most. He seemed very organized, as well. So thankful that they're leaving me alone and not having to see/hear from them except maybe every once in a while.

I was in the Netherlands in the mid 70's. We elders were told to steer clear of single women. Sis missies took care of that.

Ron