http://www.suntimes.com/news/steinberg/4853740-417/gender-cops-know-nothing-of-kids-history.html


I have only heard bits and pieces of this big ol' debate over Jenna Lyons and the J.Crew ad showing a mom painting her boys toe nail. Regardless, I'm going to chime in.

At this exact moment, my youngest son has painted toe nails AND he is in the garage getting grimy helping his dad and brother replace the brake-pads on the car. He likes to paint his toes when I'm painting mine AND he likes to help daddy work on the car.

He likes to play with baby dolls AND he likes to hack his brother down with a lightsaber.

He likes to brush my hair AND he likes to punch his brother for no good reason.

He likes pink AND pretty much every other color in the rainbow.

He is my son AND I absolutely adore him.




What are your thoughts?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2011 03:16PM by Queen of Denial.

First off, the picture doesn't show the mom painting the kids toenails, rather it shows a lovely picture of a mother and son and the boy has already painted pink toenails.

It's just ridiculous. Any boy with an older sister likely got dressed up in dresses by said sister and if this lead to transvestitism, there'd be far, far more trannies out there in the world.

What really bugs me though, is if this were a picture of a girl wearing pants and playing with trucks and cars, no one would blink.

This isn't "gender bending". It's standard developmental behavior for a freakin' five year old.

Some people just have to invent shit to get upset over.

elee Wrote:
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> First off, the picture doesn't show the mom
> painting the kids toenails, rather it shows a
> lovely picture of a mother and son and the boy has
> already painted pink toenails.
>
I haven't seen the actual ad. Thank you for the clarification. And yeah, it's a stupid controversy.

For those who haven't seen it:

http://www.stylecaster.com/fashion/12287/jenna-lyons-j.crew-ad-spark-gender-debate

That could be me and my son...


Sadly, I can see how many, many TBM and other conservative people in my life would freak out. Stupid.

On the other hand my son's middle boy very much enjoys getting his toenails painted by his mother (usually silver) and is a sensitive, gentle soul (who is still perfectly willing to hack at his brother with a lightsaber or hit him for no reason I can discern). Is he homosexual?

Snort! He's six -- he doesn't care one way or the other! ;)

Rebeckah Wrote:
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> Snort! He's six -- he doesn't care one way or the
> other! ;)


Exactly!!!!

You see his mother has a friend who comes over with a tumultuous love life (she chooses jerks and then jumps into bed with them and then cries because they're -- jerks) so Kai offered to be her boyfriend. Apparently he decided it was time to upgrade to fiancee because Jaimee asked if they were getting married when he grew up and he agreed they were.

Does this make him heterosexual?

Snort! Still six and still doesn't care! lol!!

(He is our little sweetheart though. And yes, it was rings in the 25 cent dispenser. Did I mention he likes rings and jewelry for himself too?)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2011 03:46PM by Rebeckah.

Maybe the referenced boy in the ad will become a famous 19th-20th century Austrian poet. :p

robertb Wrote:
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> Maybe the referenced boy in the ad will become a
> famous 19th-20th century Austrian poet. :p


And maybe my son with be an artist along the lines of Rothko OR maybe he'll be a race car driver.

OR maybe he'll be an accountant.

Whatever your son becomes, I am quite sure he will become a splendid human being with the help of such parents as yourselves :-)

It's fun to guess what kids will do. So far I am 1 for 4 and have enjoyed the surprises.

I so look forward to those surprises in their lives, and in mine. :)

Here's how I've fared:

Daughter, age 30: I thought she'd become an attorney. She is a loan officer at a commercial bank, works part-time at a winery, teaches and competes in dance. Oh, and still runs her younger brothers :p

Son, age 28: I thought he'd become a psychologist. He's a Navy veteran. He is studying to become a physical therapist (Masters Degree or Ph.D.). He is excellent with dogs.

Son, age 27: I thought he'd become an accountant and would be nerdy. He has a MS in Chemistry and is working on a Ph.D. Big sports fan. Loves to play basketball. Plays guitar.

Son, age 25: I thought he'd become an engineer. He's graduating with a B.S. in Engineering and is going on to advanced study. He's also insightful about relationships and good-hearted--and unattached!

Daughter, age 8: What she wants to become changes every day. She is becoming fluent in Spanish. She's smart and good-hearted, like her mom. I don't have a guess for her yet, but whatever she does, it will be good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2011 03:47PM by robertb.

Mine are too young to guess yet, but based on who they are now, I will be proud of them too. ;)

Jon Stewart did a funny bit on it.

Here's all I know

It's a stupid controversy.

My mom spent an awful lot of time chasing me away from my brother's train set and my brother away from my dolls. We just got better at hiding our toy preferences, although for years there, I got a doll every xmas even though I never played with them.

I'm now -- well, I'm not sure what, exactly, as I'm still a work in process, but my brother is a Mormon, the only one of us who is.

Not sure what that means, but maybe the thread about the "all men like 14 - 16 year olds and this thread should hook up.

to borrow from ron,


just saying.

I made it through a whole post with no parantheses! Yeah me!

I saw this the other day. Some of the comments were ridiculous and very vicious- Accusing the mother of wanting a girl instead of a boy, making him into a crossdresser/gay/messed up.

Don't people have something better to be irate about that a mom who obviously loves her son?

I managed to paint my toenails for the first time in five years i'm bloody proud of that!

My thoughts are this on the subject. Girls who embrace the masculine and feminine sides of themselves are much more easily accepted. Boys who do, not so much.

Our society in general is so male homophobic that it's crazy. In Jr. High, High school the code of masculinity is strongly enforced. And I would say the more rural you get, the more strongly it's enforced.

A boy that embraces a feminine side will likely get picked on a lot.

It shouldn't be this way, and in a lot of cultures it isn't that way. In some American Indian cultures the feminine guys were accepted, and had an even higher status. They were thought to have the best of both sexes, and therefore better.

In Tonga, feminine guys are called something that sounds like "fakaleti" and they are accepted, though not revered like in the Indian example.

People should be able to be in a broad range of feminine, to masculine; whether they are male of female.

How do you explain to a 2-year-old that the pink coat is not for him--that he has to wear navy blue or gray? (I got away with that one by getting him the same color of coats as his dad had).

But he twirled in my daughter's pretty lacy dresses--loved them.

He wore fingernail polish on toes and fingernails.

He liked dolls and played house.

And he LOVED trains.

And she liked collecting bones and rocks and sticks. Then in 4th grade, she started dressing like a boy for a while.

They both turned out straight and have a gay father (there you go you people who say our children will turn out gay if raised by gays).

Anyway--people worry WAY TOO MUCH ABOUT THIS STUFF.

cl2 Wrote:
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>
> Anyway--people worry WAY TOO MUCH ABOUT THIS
> STUFF.


I used to worry way too much about it. For my son's sake, I am so relieved that I don't anymore.

My son has not asked to have his toenails painted, but if he did, I would do it. Pink toenail polish does not "make" a kid gay. If he was gay, he was born that way. And at 6 years old, kids should be allowed to be themselves.

Currently my six year old swears he is going to be a professional wrestler when he grows up. We had a conversation about people who rent/people who buy houses and reasons why people don't buy houses sometimes. I told him that he has to have a steady job and work hard if he wants to buy a house. He says he wants to work really hard at pinning people so he can buy a house when he grows up.

Not exactly the career I would choose for my extraordinarily intelligent child, but if that is what he wants to do, it is my job to support him in any way I can. Of course, last month he was going to be President of the United States, so who knows where he will end up. :)

I think it's cute. I have two boys, and I'm sure over the years they painted their toenails. It was so "non-noteworthy" that none of us remember if they did or not.

There are three of us kids. I'm the oldest, born in 1948. When my Mom painted her nails she had to paint ours. Fingers and toes. She didn't insist. It was us. When she rolled Sisters hair with folded pieces of brown paper bags, Brother and I would cut paper for our own hair. She would put a perm in Sisters hair but never in our hair. Said the water would make our hair straight.
We all climed trees to the top, went rabbit hunting and played with boys toys. We all played dress up, played with dolls and girls toys.
Carrying water, cutting firewood, washing clothes by hand and helping with the cooking was a job for all. Nothing was gender based.
We didn,t have much so from the first grade to the third I wore my Moms shoes to school { black and white oxfords}. She wore then in the evening. I got my first pair of shoes in the fourth grade.
None of us turned out to be gay and we don,t paint our nails or roll our hair now.
I'm the only one that joined the LDS church. I left about six years ago. I'm glad I left. Jim

college-age or thereabouts. The guy had his fingernails painted dark brown, otherwise just any other young (hetero) couple.

fingernails black all through high school and after when he dressed goth.

So Queen of Denial can have spot 1 and 2 on the board. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2011 08:05PM by Freevolved.

I painted my nails as a kid. Both sisters and sometimes Mom helped. I'm straight. I'm male. I do not see the issue.

This is ridiculous! You all are on the wrong f-ing forum! Take this nonsense elsewhere! I am trying to recover from being part of a cult and you are talking about personal hygiene! You are making this difficult for me!

As a TBM, I would have tried to force my son to be someone he is not.

The wonderful thing about this board is that you can pick and choose what is helpful to you. Sometimes posts like this are helpful.

Sometimes silly or crude or hilarious is helpful.

Not every thread has to be deep, documented or bitching.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2011 11:45AM by Queen of Denial.

I THINK he was joking. :)

I hope he was joking...

elderborracho Wrote:
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> This is ridiculous! You all are on the wrong
> f-ing forum! Take this nonsense elsewhere! I am
> trying to recover from being part of a cult and
> you are talking about personal hygiene! You are
> making this difficult for me!


You are teasing, are you not, ElderDrunkard? :-) If you are not, I would gently note that rigid gender roles, which tends to characterize Mormonism, is indeed relevant.

he clomped around in my stepmother's heels, and he knows how to sew. He used to make clothing for his He-Man action figures.

I know how to cut and lay tile, fix most older cars (Chilton FTW!), use a tap and die, bleed brakes, slop tar on a roof, hammer a nail damned straight and use power tools among other "dudeish" things.

I also learned that hydraulic jacks are not good substitutes for skateboards; neither are wheeled dollies. Eventually I got a real skateboard.

My son's finger- and toenails have been black and purple (oh, and green), and he wore his girlfriend's dress to a fund raiser at his college. They shaved his pits and stuffed her bra (it was on his body). He looked pretty cute.

My biggest relief (only because it's so expensive): My kid never went Goth.

Be whom you are. Experiment. Let your freak flag fly. Fuck the haters and stupid gender roles. Live in another person's skin for a while. Enjoy the world.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2011 12:38AM by Beth.

My 10 year older sister and her Middle School friends sure had fun forcing me into a makeover onetime though..Oh the humiliation. LOL.

LOL...I agreed to let a guy in my 8th grade French class touch my boobs (over the shirt!) if he let me put mascara on him. He had the longest, most beautiful eyelashes :)

It's such a non-issue. The truth is we live in a homophobic country and that's what it boils down to. To be afraid of a boy in pink nail polish is so utterly pathetic.

I have a 4 year old daughter and a 2 year old son. He follows her around everywhere and wants to do everything she does, including getting his toenails painted. I paint his when I paint hers.

Never once did it cross my mind that those things would make him gay or transgendered. Why? Because you can't "create" a gay. People are born LGBT or not. There's nothing anyone can do to make them that way or not. The end.

That's all good and fine. I:

1. Collect/trade hand-sewn quilts.
2. Can operate a four-spool serger.
3. Take cooking classes.
4. Collect/trade antique McCoy art pottery.
5. In love with Michael Symon.

It's all good.

Just sayin'...

Ron

I'll admit when I saw the ad I found it pretty creepy. I don't think it has anything to do with homosexuality. It's just creepy.
The kid looks rather feminine anyway.

I guess I'm guilty of something here but my first thought was; cut that kid's hair and throw him in some mud or something.

verdacht Wrote:
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> I guess I'm guilty of something...



Yep.

I knew some folks would think so but I"m sticking by it. It's creepy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2011 12:15PM by verdacht.

Yes! I was joking for all of you who didn't catch that. I guess I should have been more sarcastic.

My baby boy is doomed! He has 3 older sisters who love to doll him up, and I let them do it too. He loves the attention. If he's gay he's gay. I love my children no matter what.

The same could go the other way for girls. One of my daughters will NOT wear anything remotely girly. Its all I can do to comb her hair. We shop in the boys department for everything, including toys. And do you know what? I love her because of it. If she ends up being a lesbian so what!

I think the hype over this add in nonsense! =)