"The study found no difference in the ethical behavior of believers and nonbelievers. But participants who saw God as compassionate were more likely to cheat than those who believed in an angry, punitive God."

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-beliefs-morals-20110430,0,4211564.story

I'm really surprised by those results. As long as they asked the religious questions after the math exam, then that methodology would avoid biased results (for instance, someone feeling like they had to be honest after declaring beliefs in a vengeful god). I'm sure they probably asked after the exam. Anyway, those results are so surprising and contrary to my experience with both types of believers.

I'm not surprised about the non-believer results.

I consider myself to be a christian. Myself yes I've always had high morals but I attribute that to my/our upbringing. I've known people who were not devout christians(didn't attend church, would swear, etc) but morals were every bit as high as myself. So, personally I do not believe being christian makes you moral or immoral. I can remember growing up it was the pastor's offspring who seemed to have been the wildest. They would drink(of course, under age) etc.

I don't think the study was about devout vs non-devout, or christian vs non-christian. Different religions, and different denominations within those religions, have opposing views about their deity's nature (compassionate or vengeful).

I'm Christian, but true morals, integrity and character are best measured on how a person would act if they didn't think God exists...so it's a hypothetical question for people who believe in a god/gods.

Therefore, IMHO, moral atheists rock. They are driven from a love for humanity. (some of course may be motivated fear of consequences and law)

! I get frustrated at "believers" for thinking morality is tied to god/gods. My point is that morality should stand on it's own, and that atheists have an easier time showing integrity because they don't have a fear of gods wrath to spur them on...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2011 02:53AM by lostmystic.

I'm not sure it's just a hypothetical question for believers, because the concept of god's forgiveness and the nature of/path to that forgiveness (or I guess salvation?) seems to be the root of this particular study. So: how would a person act if they believed in a forgiving god who knew their hearts and judged their hearts instead of specific actions, or how would a person act if they believed in an angry, vengeful god who did not look into their hearts but judged based on strict adherence to biblical law regardless of the situation.

lostmystic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm Christian, but true morals, integrity and
> character are best measured on how a person would
> act if they didn't think God exists...so it's a
> hypothetical question for people who believe in a
> god/gods.
>
> Therefore, IMHO, moral atheists rock. They are
> driven from a love for humanity. (some of course
> may be motivated fear of consequences and law)
>
> ! I get frustrated at "believers" for thinking
> morality is tied to god/gods. My point is that
> morality should stand on it's own, and that
> atheists have an easier time showing integrity
> because they don't have a fear of gods wrath to
> spur them on...

I love your response. I would believe this as well. Upon leaving the Mormon Church, and religion altogether, I actually got to find out who I was with and without God, which not everyone gets to do.

To my surprise, I was pretty much the same, except that I became more tolerant of others' differences and less judgmental.

I now feel that I live a genuine life. I'm not a moral person because of a fear of eternal consequences. It simply is who I am. I was very happy to discover that the core of who I am has always been there. It wasn't taught. It is simply me. It makes me happy to realize that.

It makes you less moral, actually. As a church member, you don't have to think about what is right or wrong. You just do as you're told, which is the antithesis of moral.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2011 10:31PM by runtu.

and telling the truth made you immoral

how sad, while considering become an LDS I was taught things about god. We all prayed, etc. I guess all of the "out there" things would have came out later. And then, I would have freaked.

I wasn't referring to LDS belief in god. It was an ironic statement about how members constantly have to lie about basic things in their life in order to do the things "necessary" to reach the highest kingdom of heaven (like get/keep recommend, marry in the temple, etc). Telling the truth about NORMAL things in life (masturbation, drinking tea/coffee, whether or not you paid your mortgage instead of tithing, and the whole myriad of other basic lifestyle things that have to be lied about) would get someone branded as immoral and disciplined.

So a religion someone invented, where constant lying is required to get to heaven, and telling the truth makes someone immoral (not the act of honesty, but the actual honesty revealed) seems to fit LDS to a T.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2011 01:22AM by wittyname.

No! When someone qualifies what they say by, "Trust me, I'm a christian" the red flags go up for us. We have witnessed much more lying and dishonesty by people claiming to be christian.

One would hope so.
As I see it, there's professed belief and there's actual belief.

Professed like the the evangelical churches and the stuff on tv.
Actual like ordinary Christians who don't make a big "see what I've done" production out of their lives and are willing to acknowledge that they make some big (and little) mistakes as they go along; who put themselves on the line to rectify what can be. (That word puts me in mind of a Beavis and Butthead joke)

And the atheist love for humanity thing: Is that all humanity, or only the ones who share similar beliefs? I don't love the humanity that was Joseph Smith, for example. Maybe Jesus was also an atheist since Christians are to love their enemies? Maybe Christians who manage to love their enemies are atheists? That whole "love of humanity" is something I definitely have problems with cuz humanity is really nasty to itself...

I certainly would not "hope" that only people of one belief were moral.

What I see from you, Devorah, is one "Christian" saying that other "Christians" are not what they "profess" to be, why would we want to be part of a faith that would behave like that? Why would we want to be part of a faith where people of that faith say that other people that profess their beliefs in that faith are essentially liars?

Gee, and I guess Christians are not part of that "humanity" you seem to have such problems with? Of course they are and they have been responsible for some really nasty stuff, all in the name of God.

But now studies are starting to show that belief in God does not make a person more moral, something us atheists have known for a long time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2011 08:08AM by MJ.

I'm reading the Old Testament right now and I would think Christians are moral in spite of their god. Yaweh is a cross between Hitler and Charles Manson.

I no longer have a belief in God, but I'm just as moral as I was before I joined the Church, during my membership there, and now as an ex-Mormon. I have not changed much at all, except that I now admit that I like colourful language. LOL

The only real difference, besides being happiers, is that I'm actually far less judgmental, even though I'd thought I was non-judgmental when I was a Mormon. Looking back now, I wasn't quite as tolerant as I'd thought I was.

I was not raised with religion. I was baptized Catholic as an infant, which of course I don't even remember. I was taken to the Anglican Church around the age of 3, but that only lasted a matter of months. From that point, until I decided to investigate churches myself from about the age of 12 or 13, I had no religious education.

My parents did not teach me to be a strongly moral person. It was simply my character, and still is. My own mother called me too old-fashioned. I think perhaps that's one reason I was attracted to the Mormon Church in the first place. The kids I met there set high standards for themselves, as I did for myself. So I fit right in.

My brother and sister have their own set of moral standards, which are different from mine, but are right for them. They are both good and decent people.

I think that if I'd not been a strongly moral person, that being in the Mormon Church would not have changed that. I probably would simply have gone on being who I was in secret, as I suspect many do.

But even while I'm typing this, something is bothering me. It's that judgment thing again. Who is to say that I have a better moral code than someone else does? If I've never believed in sex outside of marriage, but someone else does, does that make me better than they are? Of course not. It simply makes us different. We are simply being true to ourselves and our own natures.

To me, it would be the extremes of morality which would not be good. Such as, if someone's own personal standards would allow them to cause great harm to other people - to belittle others, to steal, to rape, to murder. I guess such a person would be referred to as someone who does not have a good moral fabric.

The other side of that coin is also not good though. It would be someone whose moral code is so rigid that they are inflexible. They are the types who would impose their personal moral code on others, with no regard to another's personal standards or life choices. They'd probably feel quite superior in their own moral code while taking away the rights of others as well.

To me, the ideal would be where one has a strong sense of helping one another, not doing harm to others, and is accepting of the differences of others. Sexual morality amongst consenting adults would be a personal choice, again as long as no harm was done to others.

It has nothing to do with whether or not one is religious. Religion can sometimes cause people to be the inflexible extreme type, imposing their standards on others, as we've seen the Mormon Church do.

I think it should be more about being true to ourselves, while always keeping in mind the greater good, which affects how we treat one another.

Considering the pattern of abuse committed by those large and in charge, all throughout history, no, believing in any god does not make one moral. What is heinous is how the abusers take advantage of the underlings, in the name of the chosen god of the day, in order to commit their horror.

Considering the violent content of the written content that is called god's word, or allah's word, or the words of Zeus, or any of the countless other gods, it appears god has some morality problems, too.

Glad2B Out

My husband is a police officer and last week in some training they had a pastor from a local Baptist church came in to give a session on morals and ethics. He basically stood up there and read off his powerpoint about how one cannot be ethical or moral without Judeo Christian beliefs. My husband brought it home to me and I could barely read the thing. He said that they all didn't dare say anything because this man is a close personal friend of the sheriff who was in the room at the time. This man won the election promising to "change the hearts and souls of criminals".

Religion does not make people moral. In fact it makes some people less moral.

However, moral believing people find moral inspiration in religion, and can become more moral through their religion.

I have to respect the latter. Whatever the path.

If moral people can find moral inspiration in a religion who's sacred texts included a father offering up his daughters up for rape, well, then, I think those people could find moral inspiration just about anywhere.

I've been reading "Society Without God" by Phil Zuckerman. He makes a strong case that atheistic countries (principally Denmark and Sweden as discussed in the book) are generally MORE moral than religious countries such as the U.S. The book is excellent with plenty of hard statistics as well as intriguing anecdotes. It's a good read and highly recommended.

The rules are ethics. The morality is that of loyality to ethics.

Contradictions everywhere. For instance, I don't think that one today can have real and deep respect for other people, and at the same time try to control their personal sexual life.

Absolutely not...why would it? A person has moral standards or they don't and their religion...not a big factor. All religions or lack of religions have moral people and some not so much.

stormy

It may--and often does--do the opposite.

Everything you needed to know about morals you learned in kindergarten.

no way that a kindergartener understands interpersonal relationships (which is largely what morality concerns). At their stage of development, they have scarcely begun to distinguish themselves from others (they still assume that everyone thinks as they do) or from their families. Even if they dimly realize that others may have different feelings, they cannot set aside their own and put themselves in others' positions, let alone see the communal good as taking precedence over their own desires (that is the aim of conventional maturity). Then beyond that, they can't process clashing communal obligations and forge their own decisions from an independent yet synthesizing perspective, etc., etc.(something that it's estimated even 70% of "adults" can't do yet).

That is weird, I just had an argument with someone over the phone about this very subject.

I notice that since I stopped believing in a personal God who helps me or punishes me depending on my faithfulness, I have become a more honest person.

Let me explain. It's just me and my community of other humans and my conscience. Recently I hit a beautiful new Accord which was illegally parked next to my reserved parking place at my residence. I dropped someone off at BART and came back to put a note on the car. It was gone! Previously, I would have said, "That's God helping me out. He knows I have 3 tickets and cannot afford the jump in insurance if I have an accident on my record. Thank you, Jesus."

But now that I am nothing, but leaning toward Buddhism, I have been thinking about compassion for all beings. I had time to think about the man with the car that I hit and my conscience bothered me. That very moment, this person who was visiting someone, happened to pull in. He spoke no English, only Chinese. I waved him down and pointed at the damage and said "I do" and pointed to my car and the scratch on my Miata. Suddenly he hugged me and said "car is belong my uncle. THank you good lady for tell me truth." I gave him my insurance information and I walked away with a powerful spiritual lesson and a warm feeling in my heart.

The whole heaven/hell punative god thing is damned self-centered. There's no room in there for you to actually think of the other person, to feel compassion "for all living things," it's just about carrot and stick.

This man became my teacher and I believe that I am doing better spiritually, growing to be a better person without organized religion.

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