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Posted by: winger7 ( )
Date: May 17, 2011 02:13AM

Normally my philosophy is to live and let live, but recent events in my work environment and now my home neighborhood have greatly offended me, and compelled me to confront the judgmental character head on—that is sometimes the only way. I am past the event, it is over--but I do need to vent a little—so here goes. I apologize if this is long. But I do not apologize to any TBM who somehow thinks less of my family and me because we do not accept the “TRUTH”.

I am not a Mormon, never have been. I am in my late 50’s, have lived in a lot of places, have made a lot of money, and spent a lot of money, and have experienced a whole lot of things, some I’m proud of and others not so proud. But I find living here in Utah for the last several years has some unique qualities to it that I do not find in other parts of the country. I have recently discovered this site and have lurked for a while; it has helped me to understand those unique qualities of the culture that I refer too. Only in Utah have I been asked what my religion is, what ward do I attend, ponder for just a moment if coffee really is something evil, forced to ask what the hell is a Lamanite, and how can a Jewish friend (who transferred here from the East Coast) be classified as a Gentile. I finally read the BOM, parts of the DOC , the POP, did extensive historical research, and read several historical biographies, etc. I sometimes think I now know more than most BIC Mormons do about their own church. I definitely know more than some of them. It was an interesting study, but ---Holy Toledo Batman!

My World View:
Religious conviction can range from the passive “I know the Church is True” to the more aggressive yelling, screaming, and judgmental rage expressed by the “hellfire and damnation” evangelical, all the way to a fireball on the World Trade Center. It can take many forms and indeed it does.

When people assure me they “Know the Truth”, my guard immediately goes up. To me they seem very arrogant, extremely egotistical, narrow minded, simplistic, and in most cases somehow domineering and controlling. For me, God's universe is an infinitely vast and mysterious place, full of wonder, complexity, beauty, and on and on and on. Pondering infinity as viewed through the Hubble telescope; or experiencing a sunrise alone on a mountain; or feeling a sense of belonging as I sit on a beach and view the ocean horizon; those all do more for me than most church services. When taken as a whole we really know so very little. The longer I live and the more I learn of it the more in awe I become. My overwhelming curiosity and desire to learn all things brings me closer to God, not further away. This is something innate in the human species. We have always wanted to know what lies on the other side of the hill or beyond the horizon. We are hardwired to learn and experience something new--- a baby will always reach for the bright colored toy. The learning process requires one to be receptive to new ideas, a propensity to add to the knowledge base, and a willingness to modify or discard old ideas as better ones become known. The strict, stratified, religious dogma of most religions acts as an antithesis to what’s really there. It is difficult to explain that to someone with a religious conviction. The scientific process continues to reveal that preconceived notions of God’s universe are often incorrect. To continuously endeavor to make everything conform to a very narrow view of reality just doesn't work. There is much more complexity within the Ancients’ view of the four elements (fire, water, earth, air) than they could imagine. The earth is older than 6000 years and yes---it really is not flat nor the center of the universe. (By the way, on that last point, Galileo Galilei spent the last years of his life under indictment and arrest by the Pope for stating otherwise. Galileo helped perfect the telescope and took a look. But the real crime was he dared say to others what he understood.)

Not knowing an absolute truth and answer to the mystery of the life and the universe can be quite disconcerting at times. And for some personalities it must be downright uncomfortable. It is also innate in our species to try to make sense of things, and I guess that is why there has always been religions throughout the ages, why there are so many of them, and why they are all so diverse. In my experience most people use their religious views to help them through the process, and are reasonably open to other or new views. Religious zealots tend to suppress all opposing opinions or any new viewpoint, no matter how overwhelming the supporting evidence. Science does not claim to have the answer, it never did. It is only a process to try and get closer to how the universe really works. Famous physicists and Noble Prize winner Richard P. Feynman once said:

"Poets say science takes away from the beauty of the stars - mere globs of gas atoms. I too can see the stars on a desert night, and feel them. But do I see less or more?”

My level of understanding does not distract from the majesty of the universe—for there will always be something else to figure out. Understanding the Calculus of Mathematics, or the chemical bonds within a molecule brings me closer to how God works, not further away. I believe the more knowledge one obtains the closer he is to the truth.

With that as background it is time to leave the philosophical for a moment and dwell in the here and now—Utah and it’s culture.

To those of you who somehow think less of me because I will not accept the “TRUTH”!
How one deals with the uncertainties of life is your business. If that is how you truly feel about me, then keep it to yourself. Explicity telling me so only forces me to take the gloves off and write things that disparages your view (as I am about to do here). In the last five years of living in this state (Utah) I have never tried to coerce anyone to my view of the world. I would only ask that you give me the same courtesy. Most people and some Mormons have that part figured out, but some Mormons (at least three that I am dealing with) haven’t. Western civilizations took hundreds of years and many wars to realize that religion and the secular world need to be separated and it’s reflected within the existing democracies, but at least three Mormons in the Land of Zion have not realized it, and I suspect many more. A good part of the Islamic world still has to figure that part out as well. History shows that when governing politics gets mixed with religious dogma nothing but trouble is about to follow.

Many disciplines add to man’s knowledge base, i.e. anthropology, geology, astronomy, physics, mathematics, sociology, psychology, molecular biology (DNA), engineering, chemistry, medicine, etc., etc. As our knowledge base grows new paths of exploration are opened that could never have been imagined nor predicted. Just because you do not understand something does not make it any less true, it only makes it easier for you to discredit. But when you do that, one who does understand it only finds you ignorant. So when new things come along don’t send your apologetics and try to make me see otherwise just because your worldview does not include those things. And do not judge me and belittle me because I don’t see it the same way as you. And please do not blame the scientific process, or the messenger of such disciplines. They are not out to somehow “create” the universe, they only report what IS there and try to understand it; not what you hope is there, or should I say what you “already know” is there. The Rosetta Stone (the Book of Abraham is a Farce). DNA biology (the American Indians are not Jews from Babylon). Industrial Metallurgy (there were no swords, chariots, armored breastplates in pre-Columbus America). There are a million things that do not “add up” within the BOM, i.e. population growth demographics, language divergence, anthropology, geography, archeology, King James English, translation process, molecular biology, history of the witnesses, etc. And together with recent American History (not the abridged and approved version by TSCC) one brings a whole new twist and another million things to ponder, i.e. the character of Joseph Smith, polygamy, treasure hunting, visions, angelic visitation, bank fraud, adultery, politics, economic power, Nauvoo Legion, intrigue, secrecy, the Danites, Mountain Meadows, prophecy (or the lack thereof), temple endowments, garments, the golden plates (or the lack thereof), the changing character of the church, ad infinitum. There were very real reasons why the Saints were forced out of everywhere they went, why the states of Illinois and Missouri activated the State Militias, and why somewhat later President Buchanan sent the U.S. Army to the Utah Territory. The secular and religious realms were very much part of the same, and as the saints became more powerful economically, politically, and militarily---well, that was just not going to fly in the new republic of America. TSCC has reinvented itself more than once, and it will have to do so again in the near future as all these “new” things come along the information highway. In short, TSCC has charlatan stamped all over it. There is a lot more to God and the universe than the strict, stratified dogma coming from the old men in the Church Office Building—for that is as old and narrow and hard as the arteries of the old men who subscribe to it. With all this in mind—belonging to the one and only true church on the face of the planet must be a powerful enticement indeed. The arrogance of such a claim is stupefying beyond all imagination.

There! I feel better.

I should end this tirade. A curious mix of science, religion, history, and philosophy I must admit. But jeez—just don’t call me stupid or evil to my face because I don’t believe all “that stuff” about your church—keep it to yourself where it belongs.

This writing has helped me quantify what’s been wrong since I moved here. I’m good for another five years in Utah now.

So now, my task is to research cults, cult like behavior, and why people will so readily subscribe to a believe system that to most others is so obviously flawed?

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Posted by: fallenangela ( )
Date: May 17, 2011 08:50AM

Winger,

I'd like to confirm that you do, indeed, know more about the nitty gritties of TSCC than I did as a BiC member. As it says in an old popular LDS kids' song "I know the rules, the dos the don'ts for happy, happy living." I knew all that stuff, and the ways I didn't measure up, but I probably couldn't tell you any story from the BoM in detail, or with accuracy. I will never engage in a doctrine debate for I simply don't know. And if I ever did, I certainly don't after now living nearly half my life out of TSCC.

I found your post thoughful and interesting and thought it needed at least one reply acknowledging the effort you put into it. :-)

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Posted by: winger7 ( )
Date: May 17, 2011 11:31AM

Thanks fallenangela and to anyone else who gets through he read.

Once when serving Jury duty, the main question that kept coming up during the selection process was: could we as potential jurors examine only the evidence as presented and make a decision based only on that evidence? The judge, defense team, and prosecution kept going back to that theme. It seemed to be the main prerequisite required of us as citizens.

So my question is: Do people in the church really know all about this stuff and still believe it? How can folks who are otherwise well educated, professional people, come to such a conclusion based on the evidence? As an outsider I don't get it. Time to research the human psychic and social engineering and figure out what's going on.

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Posted by: tiptoes ( )
Date: May 17, 2011 11:40AM

Winger7--start your research with the book, Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. It is a eye opening look at why people do what they do and how some compliance professionals/practitioners manipulate people to get what they want. I am going to bookmark this thread for future reference. Thanks for sharing your perspective with us.

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Posted by: winger7 ( )
Date: May 17, 2011 01:38PM

Tiptoes
Thanks for the tip on the book: Just ordered it from Amazon: Looks like an interesting read--I could stand to learn something: The same exact set of data, two totally different conclusions?

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: May 17, 2011 12:49PM

Nothing offensive in it but I'm sure if you expose religious zealots to it they'll go bananas. But here in the grown up world of uncertainty -- it's a great read. :)

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Posted by: Dances with Cureloms ( )
Date: May 17, 2011 02:11PM

What a great summary of thoughts!

I recommend you re-posting this on the bio thread for posterity (all generations in time and through out all eternity).

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