Hi. Does anyone here have any experience after separating
from their TBM spouse with them trying to force you to
take your kids to church on your visitation weekends?
I know she can't force me to take them to church, but
she is threatening to take visitation away if I don't take
them. I know the courts would not force me to take them,
but trying to convince her is impossible. I may have to
go to court for visitation violations as she has withheld
visitation until I got the cops involved when I didn't do
what she wanted, i.e. give her more money.

I'm concerned taking the kids to church as I don't want
them brainwashed from an early age to believe in joseph
smith and everything else. My former bishop keeps telling
me it's good to take them to church to teach them moral
principles in this difficult world, but they can learn
them somewhere else including from me without the lies
from the faith promoting LDS church in which the truth
does not matter.

Any thoughts? Thanks.

Ha read the bible and all the principles to living in the world will be expounded.

I was at church today and they brainwash those little ones I attended young womens, they NEVER talk about Christ, Or God, just ridiculous Mormons Fantasy.

It's just not relevant

It's well worth it, and they'll thank you later on.

I'm sorry she's being so unreasonable.

You didn't mention the age of the kids, however it's important to get their take on it. If they want to go, by NOT taking them you appear the bad guy in their eyes. If they don't, they shouldn't have to go... ESPECIALLY if they have reached the "age of accountability".

Just Sayin'.....(they shouldn't be prayin')



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2011 01:31AM by labdork.

That's what I do in this exact situation. You can take them to a different church every week to open their minds to all the diversity of religion. Or pick the one that's most tolerable. At least then your kids will know that they can choose their beliefs, instead of it being the Mormon church or nothing. If you don't like religion because you're an atheist, you might want to check out the Unitarians, because they don't even require you to believe in God. There are plenty of other options besides "the church", even in Utah.

I don't care how old they are. If you don't want them to got to church when they are with you then they don't go to church if they want to go or not. I doubt their mother gives them the option to stay home. Don't take them to another church unless you want them to be religious. You have no obligation moral or otherwise to compromise with the ex. Don't take them to church. Tell her you will, then don't do it.

When your ex violates custody rulings call the cops every time. Tell your wife to talk to her lawyer about what she is planning on doing. A lawyer should tell her she is wacky and tell her to back off.

Almost five years ago, my tbm ex tried doing something similar during our separation. When I didn't take the kids to church, she tried stopping me from having them on Sundays. I'd pick them up on Friday, and she would refused to allow them to come with me unless I promised to take them to church.

I told her that, besides a clear violation of my right to exercise my own freedom of religion, she was violating my parenting time and that I would note it along with her alienating to be brought up with the judge. She did it a couple of times, and I am pretty sure that her lawyer told her to stop it. She didn't stop me from exercising parenting time after a couple of weeks.

I gave my kids a choice. On Sunday morning, I told them what I had planned--a movie, a hike, going for ice cream, etc. That they could stay with me or go with their mom to get ready and go to church. At first, two of my kids felt guilted by their mom, and they choose to go to church with her. The other kids came back that night with talk of the fun they had. After that, the other two almost always choose to stay with me on Sundays.

Give them, even the younger ones, a choice, letting them know what fun they miss out choosing to go to boring church with mom. Believe me, this object lesson is remembered far better than any primary lesson.

You can keep your kids from being forced into LDS cult progression by "protecting" them from would-be predators. That is, by prohibiting interviews with your kids except as you permit and under your terms. No court will fault you for this.

Make sure you check with your kids about what they want, and wait for after you get final orders in your divorce (otherwise it will be used against you or stoke the fires in court).

Letter to bishop:
==============

Mr. Lastname (no titles or niceties because he was a jerk):

I received your letter stating that you do not believe there is an LDS church policy requiring both parents’ permission for interviews with the children. Regard this letter as notice that it is my policy, as the father with joint decision making authority, that you, your counselors and the stake presidency or any ecclesiastical leaders do not have permission to conduct interviews with my children. If an interview is requested, you will need to contact me well before proceeding whenever you or any LDS leaders intend to conduct an interview with one of my children.

My concerns stem from troubling incidences among my peers when I was a teenager in a Utah ward, in which a young men’s leader in an adjacent ward molested several boys. And events with a friend whose bishop required graphic detail of her confession to sexual activity, even requiring her to discuss how she felt engaging in it and methods used. These are not isolated events.

In recent years it's come to light that there is a growing problem among clergy (Catholic, Protestant and Mormonism) with inappropriate behavior, even molestation, when interacting with children. I do not know you personally, and while I have no evidence that you have any problem with this, I have general concerns. It would be troubling were you to go against a parent's wishes to interview and especially ask a child or teen about personal behaviors regarding sex, morality or controversial topics, (often disguised under the term "chastity"). I find it unnerving that clergy in the LDS church routinely ask the youth to discuss sex, masturbation, pornography or other subjects that would be considered highly off limits for anyone other than parents or licensed professionals, all behind closed doors. Very troubling.

Let me put this into perspective: A non-related adult male more than twice the age of the child being interviewed, asking my teenage child about his/her sexual activities in a closed office is inappropriate on many levels. This is not an acceptable community standard any where I know of, and even state-run schools are required to get permission for group discussions on these same topics. Discussing individually, behind closed doors, these topics with a child or teen is deplorable behavior.

Even when or if I were to give permission for interviews, and in order to protect my children, I insist that the following measures be put in place.

1. In order to avoid potentially compromising situations, at least two adults are required in attendance while supervising and/or accompanying my children at all times.

2. That the door not be closed, ever, when clergy interact with my children.

3. All non-related adults in contact with my children have a Police Record Check (PRC).

In fact, PRCs should be mandatory for all primary teachers and youth leaders in contact with my children. I know that this is the case with leaders within the scouting program within the Mormon Church. I cannot understand why this is not the standard for all your primary and youth leaders.

I will be sure to continue asking my children if they are interviewed without my permission, or if these kinds of topics are brought up even in casual conversations. At the simplest level, I have a right to know everything that my children are involved in within the Mormon Church. At this time, I am not informed about my children’s activities at church such as speaking in church, performing musical numbers or engaging in other aspects I may or may not agree with.

This is to inform once again, that you and any ecclesiastical official in the Mormon Church do not have permission to ask confidential questions of my children pertaining to personal topics including masturbation, homosexuality, impure thoughts, sex, guilt, etc. No interviews are to take place without prior permission. Even if my children consent to private closed door interviews, I prohibit and forbid the practice without giving my permission on a case-by-case basis. Permission for one case never automatically permits another (meaning each and every interview and interaction with any of my children dealing with confidential topics of a “guilt” nature are to be cleared with both parents first).

If I learn of inappropriate activities, interviews or discussions of topics not permitted, I will immediately contact my lawyer, the media, and Child Protective Services. Regard this as a recurring policy for all my children for you and all leaders called in the future in the ward or stake they reside in.


Sincerely



Jesus Smith
Father

CC lawyers and others

When I was a kid, many of the lessons were about honesty, kindness, and good manners. The lessons now are much more about tithing, going on a mission, marrying in the temple, and obeying church authority figures.

I think it would be a good idea to fight her on this issue.

There's nothing wrong with discussing how your kids feel about going to church. In fact it's a good idea. But it's wrong headed and inappropriate to simply let them choose what they want to do. Kinds don't understand about brainwashing, indoctrination, and church peer pressure. They don't know that being baptized means they'll probably be stalked in their homes for years into adulthood. Adults make mistakes but they can handle the issues better than little children and need to be parents, not mere peers with their kids.