I'm trying to find some key dates because I think there is a breakdown in the story of the three witnesses.

1. completion of the BoM
2. gold plates were returned
3. witness of the three witnesses

I was telling a TBM that the Martin Harris said he didn't really see the plates with his physical eyes. The response was that Martin said he held the plates on his lap for an hour and a half and flipped the pages over leaf by leaf. Right...

So far I have it pegged that Martin saw the plates for the first time in June 1829 after the BoM was complete. I need some hard dates and source references if possible.

If Martin first saw the plates after the translation was complete, when would he have time to sit with the gold plates on his lap? The witnesses say that Moroni showed them the plates. Should we assume that the plates had already been returned to Moroni?

Dates and source quotes would be very helpful. Thanks in advance.

Can't give you any dates right off hand, but that's one of my problems with the witness stuff--why wait until after the book is done to show the plates?? That's like saying "I DID have Maria Sharapova staying in my guest bedroom for 3 months, but now that she's gone back to Russia, I'll take you to the forest and have an angel magically introduce you."

Well, that's not really what it's like, but I like the mental picture...

I would ask your TBM friend for the source of Harris' statement that he "held the plates on his lap for an hour and a half and flipped the pages over leaf by leaf."

I just wikipedia'ed it.

Nevertheless, in 1853, Harris told one David Dille that he had held the forty- to sixty-pound plates on his knee for "an hour-and-a-half" and handled the plates with his hands, "plate after plate."

Martin Harris interview with David B. Dille, 15 September 1853 in EMD 2: 296-97

"... the typesetter for most of the book [the BOM], said that he had asked Harris, "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye."[24] Two other Palmyra residents said that Harris told them that he had seen the plates with "the eye of faith" or "spiritual eyes." [25] In 1838, Harris is said to have told an Ohio congregation that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination."[26] A neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision." [27]

"In March 1838, disillusioned church members said that Harris had publicly denied that neither he nor the other Witnesses to the Book of Mormon had ever seen or handled the golden plates—although he had not been present when Whitmer and Cowdery first claimed to have viewed them—and they claimed that Harris's recantation, made during a period of crisis in early Mormonism, induced five influential members, including three Apostles, to leave the Church.[28] Even at the end of his long life, Harris said that he had seen the plates in "a state of entrancement."[29]"

Any help would be very appreciated.

Well, I suppose if we believe Harris' statement to Dille that he had actually held the plates, then we should also believe Joseph Smith's statement that he had seen an angel.

Harris also said he walked with Jesus for 3 miles in the shape of a deer...

My point isn't that he said he held the plates.

My point is that he couldn't have held the plates. Why would he have such trouble seeing the plates with Cowdery and Whitmer if he had already played with them for an hour?

If the angel brought the plates to the three witnesses, is it reasonable to assume Joseph had already given them back? If he had given them back, then when did Martin sit them on his lap.

If we get the date the plates were returned, then, we can easily discredit that particular testimony... which is convincing to TBMs.

(I know that TBMs will ignore it, but, I still want to know)

March, 1829 - D&C Section 5 is received, in which the 3 are told that they will be given power to see the plates (and no other, as opposed to 2 Nephi 27:13 which says that a few others will be able to as well - that verse was probably "translated" later than the revelation was received.)

June 26, 1829 - The Wayne Sentinel publishes a copy of the Book of Mormon title page, previously provided by Joseph.

July 1, 1829 - is when David Whitmer says (in 1881) that translation was finished.

The returning of the plates and the subsequent vision supposedly happened in the following few weeks, from what I understand.


Here's another tidbit I researched and found interesting, from Emma Smith in an interview dated 1879:

"The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen tablecloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I once felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book. "

gold is pretty maleable, and would probably bend easily if pounded thin enough. It would be very heavy, though, and I don't imagine would hold up well to lengthy inscription. and lugging around.

There are schools of thought out there, though, that Joseph had a mock set created from some other, lighter metal, and then got rid of it once he had showed it to a few. This explanation certainly fits all the evidence we have, but we can't really know...

Hello!!! How is being wrapped in a tablecloth NOT concealment?

This sentence literally cancels itself out! It states no attempt at concealment then describes the concealment in the same damn sentence.

Emma never said she saw them with her own eyes. Only that she felt something through the cloth. Something wrapped in cloth is not un-concealed!

Once I opened my eyes and took off the rose colored glasses I found this same doublespeak BS literally everywhere in mormonism.

"In 1829, with the assistance of Oliver Cowdery, work on the Book of Mormon recommenced, and was completed in a remarkably short period (April–June 1829).[25] Smith said that he then returned the plates to Moroni upon the publication of the book.[22][26] The Book of Mormon went on sale at the bookstore of E. B. Grandin on March 26, 1830.[27]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon

Did Smith and others make plates? Possibly (see below). He probably didn't need to. He never really showed them to anyone except to his inner circle (and they claimed later that they saw them only with their "Spiritual eyes" http://mrm.org/eleven-witnesses ).

Except giglamesh found a quote of Harris saying he handled the plates.

So how hard would it have been in 1829 to make goldish looking plates that resemble what we know from those that saw, touched or felt them?

If the plates actually existed, then they weighed around 50-60lbs according to those that hefted them (in the box or under cloth). The dimensions that "witnesses" offer of the box or the plates under the cloth, of 6x8x6 inches (or just under 300 cubic inches in volume). Apologists agree with these values. See http://www.mormonfortress.com/gweight.html for example.

If these are accepted, then pure gold plates would have a weight of between 100-210lbs (the upper weight if the volume were pure gold without spaces), more than double what witnesses claim. (The calculation is based on gold's density of 0.7 lbs/cubed-inch X 300 cubed-inches ~= 210lbs.)

Critics have contended that if he had actual plates (a big question) they were likely tin, because that would be financially accessible and workable by frontier folk like Smith. http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no105.htm

Apologists claim that the plates were more likely an alloy of copper with some gold, called Tumbaga ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumbaga ).

I doubt both. Tin is not the right color. Though, it has a density of 0.26 lbs/cubed-inch and as such would have a volume weight for the plates around 40-80lbs. Tumbaga of mostly copper would fit the story if the plates had been from ancient American sources, but we all know that Smith lied. Still, copper is about the right weight, with a density of 0.32 lbs/cubed-inch giving it a volume weight of around 50-90lbs.

My proposal is that IF the plates ever existed, they were made from bronze-plated copper. It would be cheap, engravable, the correct weight and gold in color. Copper plates were used regularly (and for hundreds of years before Smith) by printshops. Plates were tossed away or re-used. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copperplate

The only problem is, copper is not gold in color. That is easily remedied by bronze-plating them, which an apprenticed smithy could do simply using zinc powder and lye (sodium hydroxide). See http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-turn-penny-into-gold-with-common-chemicals-272618/

Apparently, Oliver Cowdery had apprenticed as a smith and was quite good at it before turning to teaching. See the 1890 (google scanned) book "History of Utah" (
http://books.google.com/books?id=CDpkt9xiD2sC&pg=PA57&dq=oliver+cowdery+blacksmith&hl=en&ei=FxaJTJhFidT0BLSbzOAO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=oliver cowdery blacksmith&f=false
)
and http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Mormons

All that was needed was to scratch some "caractors" (characters that have been shown to very likely come from the Detroit manuscript with latin short-hand script ( http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/19000/ )) into the surface of the plates (engraving copper plates are made just for that purpose). So, it would have been easy. Easy as scratching one's arse.

Btw, I wasn't sure if you were still on the board since I came back a few weeks ago. Great to see you!

Adam



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2011 05:40PM by rogertheshrubber.

Welcome. I've been off board dealing with health issues. I get on when I need serious distraction from pain.

I am very sorry to hear that. Thanks again for your contribution. You were always a favorite poster.

And the lord did grin.

Thanks Jesus.

I have to throw in some of Hurlebut's affidavits gathered in 1833-34. If they are to be considered credible (and there is no historical reason to believe otherwise, except that Hurlebut was angry with the church), then they give some incredible insight into the origins of the Book of Mormon lie.

Peter Ingersoll quotes Joseph as speaking the following language: "As I was passing, yesterday, across the woods, after a heavy shower of rain, I found, in a hollow, some beautiful white sand, that had been washed up by the water. I took off my frock, and tied up several quarts of it, and then went home. On my entering the house, I found the family at the table eating dinner. They were all anxious to know the contents of my frock. At that moment, I happened to think of what I had heard about a history found in Canada, called the golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the golden Bible. To my surprise, they were credulous enough to believe what I said. Accordingly I told them that I had received a commandment to let no one see it, for, says I, no man can see it with the naked eye and live. However, I offered to take out the book and show it to them, but they refuse to see it, and left the room." Now, said Jo, "I have got the damned fools fixed, and will carry out the fun." Notwithstanding, he told me he had no such book, and believed there never was any such book, yet, he told me that he actually went to Willard Chase, to get him to make a chest, in which he might deposit his golden Bible. But, as Chase would not do it, he made a box himself, of clap-boards, and put it into a pillow case, and allowed people only to lift it, and feel of it through the case.

William Stafford said "The two Josephs and Hiram, promised to show me the plates, after the book of Mormon was translated. But, afterwards, they pretended to have received an express commandment, forbidding them to show the plates. Respecting the manner of receiving and translating the book of Mormon, their statements were always discordant. The elder Joseph would say that he had seen the plates, and that he knew them to be gold; at other times he would say that they looked like gold; and other times he would say he had not seen the plates at all."

Joseph Capron said: "At length, Joseph pretended to find the Gold plates. This scheme, he believed, would relieve the family from all pecuniary embarrassment. His father told me, that when the book was published, they would be enabled, from the profits of the work, to carry into successful operation the money digging business. He gave me no intimation, at that time that the book was to be of a religious character, or that it had any thing to do with revelation."

Isaac Hale said: "I was informed they had brought a wonderful book of Plates down with them. I was shown a box in which it is said they were contained, which had to all appearances, been used as a glass box of the common window glass. I was allowed to feel the weight of the box, and they gave me to understand, that the book of plates was then in the box -- into which, however, I was not allowed to look. I inquired of Joseph Smith Jr., who was to be the first who would be allowed to see the Book of Plates? He said it was a young child. After this, I became dissatisfied, and informed him that if there was any thing in my house of that description, which I could not be allowed to see, he must take it away; if he did not, I was determined to see it. After that, the Plates were said to be hid in the woods."


And last, my favorite of them all (but recording in Illinois state history, not the Hurlebut Affidavits), is a statement made to Governor Ford by men who were once in the confidence of Joseph Smith, who had related this tidbit regarding the eight witnesses: "(Joseph) assembled them in a room, and produced a box which he said contained the precious treasure. The lid was opened; the witnesses peeped into it, but making no discovery, for the box was empty, they said, ‘Brother Joseph, we do not see the plates.’ The prophet answered them, ‘O ye of little faith! how long will God bear with this wicked and perverse generation? Down on your knees, brethren, every one of you, and pray God for the forgiveness of your sins, and for a holy and living faith which cometh down from heaven.’ The disciples dropped to their knees, and began to pray in the fervency of their spirit, supplicating God for more than two hours with fanatical earnestness; at the end of which time, looking again into the box, they were now persuaded that they saw the plates.”