Well, I just got back from a family event this week which required me to step foot in a Mormon church for the first time in 20 years.

I had hoped that there might be a few "black sheep" like me in the crowd, but I found only one - out of about 100 cousins and children of cousins.

The sad thing to me is that back in the 70s, I'd say half of the group was at least jack-mormon or uninterested. But all of those "party" type members grew up to become rabid mormons and they had a LOT of children - each one of them averaging about four kids each.

So I guess I just have to say that I'm disappointed because I see NO evidence that the church is getting weaker in my own family. In fact I'd say the opposite. Oh, and this extended family is mostly in California.

sigh--me, too, Dave. It just makes me sad to see them all so brainwashed. But, then, I was too back in the day.

I think we tend to exaggerate the decline of the church here to help ourselves get out. While growth is stagnant, I haven't seen a single extended family member leave for 20 years.

I'm afraid our predictions of implosion for Mormonism are wildly overstated.

I'm hoping for a "gentle" drain of members out of any given family. It's not happening in mine at all. I was hoping that in each family their might be one person who was out, or maybe if not that, then one whole family would be out. Alas, no evidence of that in my family.

Has anyone else seen any evidence of a slow "falling away" in your family?

The parting of the ways in this regard has pretty much been a matter of box people versus no box people. Each of the ones who have left have tended to be open-minded, read a lot from diverse sources and feel comfortable associating with people from all walks of life.

The ones who are the most devout read almost nothing but church-related literature (other than mainstream news publications) and will not even discuss religious issues in any way that is not structured as a promotional message for ChurchCo. In short, they have placed themselves in mental boxes and don't seem to have any intention of ever going outside the box.

Of the six of us, only my older brother is still involved with the church. He appears to be a mostly active member, though I think his job and other commitments keep him busy enough that he's pretty much a Sunday Mormon.

Half my family is out. And most of my friends are out. And they won't be raising their children in the church either.

I think that it looks more polarizing. The friends that stayed in have gone super duper TBM. I guess it's now become a game of all or nothing.

Most of my family is TBM ( I have a few nephews that are out) but I have gotten back in touch with all the dudes I went through scouts, Deacons-priest with, and out of 9 of us 1 is still in. Out of my 6 roommates from Rexburg (yeah I went one long year) 5 are out. I know this doesn't prove anything, but it makes me happy (except the family thing).

My mom's family most of my cousins and their kids are active mormons. Not all, but way more than half.

My dad's side it's way more than half that are out of the church, although I am including some jack mormons I'm sure. And it's my dad's side where we are all first cousins of a certain "I don't know that we teach that" profit.

Anyone in his position who could for public relations objectives, and with a straight face, deny, reject and trivialize things that were regarded as core distinctive Mormon teachings by generations of Mormon leaders and ordinary members, could not have been much of a believer. He had a career. The pay was okay. He like the organization and he liked being a powerful man in the organization. But it seems pretty clear that he knew what the real poop was on Joseph Smith and he knew that he was not the kind of "prophet" that the little people thought he was.

An interesting observation. Also, on that line of thought, the Hoffman murders prove that he was very interested in buying documents from Hoffman because they were thought to be damaging PR. So he knows the whole thing is a fraud, and as you said knows where the butter for his bread comes from.

I feel your pain. On my mom's side, nobody else has left. Nobody on that side has even left Utah for that matter!

Dad's side has always had a few apostates, and that trend is continuing. A few of my cousins, who were raised as Mormons have left--but the vast majority are hooked.

That's in the generation before mine. My generation has bishops and high councilors and the usual panoply of ward callings, but with a few inactives, and, of course me, the raging apostate. Funny thing is, I would run into people from the ward I grew up in 20 years after I had left LDS Inc, and they didn't know, because my parents wouldn't breath a word about something as scandalous as their child leaving LDS Inc!

So, you may have more marginal Mormons in your family than you think. I bet a whole boatload of people from RFM would be able to pass as TBM at a family reunion.

In my generation, besides having a more than decent smattering of NOMs and jack-mos and apostates, there were a number of divorces.

In the next generation, many of whom were raised in Utah County, all of them, as far as I know, are, at best, cultural Mormons. They are mostly between 20 and 30 years old. One got a fancy coffee maker for Christmas, and made no effort to hide it at the family dinner she hosted.

For those of you who think your entire clan is TBM, two thoughts:
1) they are good actors, or
2) they are just one generation behind my family. See how things look in 30 years.

You said what I was just thinking.

"So, you may have more marginal Mormons in your family than you think. I bet a whole boatload of people from RFM would be able to pass as TBM at a family reunion."

Since most of my relatives no longer live here there is no way for me to know how they live when they aren't visiting family. They sure know how to talk the talk though. All that stuff about missions and callings etc.

I can't pass as TBM at family reunions though. The cat's been out o' the bag way too long for that. I still go to them though. Everybody seems to have gotten used to the infidel in their midst.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2011 11:22PM by Charley.

My relatives who stayed are the uber-breeders. The gay apostate cousin has no kids. The cousin that stayed LDS has countless grandkids.

Even though they don't convert many outsiders and lose a lot of kids who fall away, they still seem to have an edge because they have big families.

Plus the church has massive real estate holdings and investments (thanks to tax breaks). Even with no people attending, the church could perpetuate itself financially indefinitely. OK, maybe I'm exaggerating but I don't see any kind of demise in my lifetime.

I can't provide any statistics on this, but in the early 70s a "big family" had at least 8 and preferably more children. I remember one woman moaning in RS because she only had 10 and her sister had 12. Mo family size is still big when compared with other Americans, but it's much smaller than it used to be.

I really hope that Mo families are becoming smaller. Again, in my family there is no real evidence of this happening. The cousins have usually about four children with some less, and some more.

I think that only after, well, antibiotics did the Mo families get really large really quickly. Before that time, a family would have 13 kids, but only 3 or 4 would make it to adulthood.

Actually, this whole topic is rather depressing. You'd think in this day and age that people would wake up, but no, it seems that people are more willing to throw their life away (and a lot of money) just because the church seems like a good way to raise kids. Ugh.

My mother's side is huge and all but two of my aunts/uncles are super TBM. One uncle's a Jack-Mo and one aunt is a total non-believer. From what I've heard and/or know myself, despite the parental belief and activity rate, the cousins are split down the middle with Jack-Mos and TBMs on one side and total nonbelievers on the other. My family has the highest activity rate with two exMos and the rest total TBMs.

I wish every former TBM had an exMo cousin or two to commiserate with-- it is nice to know I'm not the only one at a family reunion who hears the crazy and thinks "wtf"?.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 08:42PM by angsty.

Our family reunion was in Salt Lake City over the fourth of July. We all stayed at the same hotel and on Sunday a lot of us were out by the pool watching the kids swim and have a good time and then we saw the go to church on Sunday no matter where you are crowd.

My aunt who is still active but constantly criticizes the church said when she needed help unloading the car, none of the goody two shoed TBM's bothered to help her but my nephew who left the church and is covered in tattoos stopped and helped her without being asked. Even with his drinking and tattoos she thinks he's wonderful because he helps people and is a hard worker. A lot of the idiots in white shirts are obsessed with money, image, and are in their own little world so much they don't even notice little old ladies struggling with their luggage who need help.

Great post.

I've gotten a little ahead of the curve on LDSinc's demise as well.


One thing I have noticed in our family is that even though there aren't any big defections to speak of, there certainlmissionaries in missionaries. There are 6 nephews between 20-24 who were touted as getting there call any day now still not getting their call. It's getting harder for everybody to pretend they will be serving soon.

The numbers presented every year in terms of the total number of branches and wards indicates the church is gaining 35,000-60,000 members every year. This is taking into account those who leave and die. Mormonism is probably not going anywhere for a very long time and will likely continue to grow for decades.

Many people just need religion and/or never question the belief system of their families' and communities'. The same is true of other major religions.

That is my observation also. The generational believers are continuing the religious traditions/rituals/ceremonies with little deviation. Families are a little smaller, three to four instead of the more common seven to 10 a couple of generations ago.

The view of some of the believers is that those that left are the "dead wood" anyhow! :-) Satan or God.... is sifting the wheat from the tares.
The same 10% to 20% of families - generation after generation are still doing 100% of the work!

I can't speak to extended family, but I can to immediate family.

I just returned from a trip to DC to visit my oldest son, his wife and my granddaughter. All is well in Zion. We drank beer of all kinds, wines of great vintage and smoked cigarettes.

My middle son has high-functioning autism and lives with his TBM mom in California. He goes to church about 1/2 the time.

My youngest is in jail here in Texas.

We buck the trend you're experiencing.

Ron

Most of the family on my mom's side were out at one point about 10 to 15 years ago. They are my cousins and they did the typical party thing. Then most of them got married in the temple or were later sealed in the temple. They each have four kids or more. I'm in the minority for sure in that family. I'm fine with that though. I would prefer to not be brainwashed. Oh and they are basically all from California too.

Stakes are being disbanded and wards combined and dissolved. I just had a TBM come into my office. He is a stake missionary and started talking about they are discussing they do not know what they are going to do. The wards are only pulling in 90 or so people and that is on a good Sunday. They are trying to come up with a solution but have no clue what to do and anything they try is not working.

I grew up in that area and when I was a teenager our ward building was the stake center and we had 2 wards in it that filled it each sunday to capacity. The church grew even more and they built another chapel up on the hill where the rich folk lived. THey filled it with 2 more wards.....Now all the wards a pittance of what they were and the rumour is they are going to sell the stake center because attendance is so low and it will cost to much to update the old stake center.

John Dehlin says he has a friend at the COB and claims the church actually only has about 18% activity rate

18% sounds about right to me, worldwide. The often claimed 40% is gone, history, a stat repeated only by liars and the wishful thinkers who believe them.

Do you really think it could possibly be that low? I'd say yes in the overseas areas (except majorly mormon areas like Tonga), but it must be closer to 50% in Utah/Idaho/AZ/Alberta, no?

Maybe the overall average is 30 to 40%?

so you have them, my bro & I. my brother and his wife have 1 child so far and DH (nevermo who converted as a teen) & I have 2.

so that's 9 people and 4 of us are exmo. my parents are middle of road trending towards slightly uber TBM and bro, SIL and child are laidback TBM. i think they attend maybe 2 sundays a month, watch R rated movies, and SIL constantly talks about "the idiot Mormons" that surround them in Provo. so maybe someday...

Out of six children in my family, 5 of us are out (with me being the latest having left a year ago). Apostasy is live and well with my clan!

Unfortunately my Dad married an Ultra-TBM new convert so I doubt he will ever leave in his lifetime.

My brother struggles with scrupulosity (as I once did) so I see him leaving maybe in 10 years or so when he just burns out.

If you hadn't been in a church for 20 years, I think it's a safe bet to say that a lot if not most of the people who joined over that period have already left again. Your family may have remained in TSCC as a whole, but others in your old area may have lost members that weren't even born when you left.

Just my two cents, really.

I think a useful indicator of wether the Church is growing or not is the use of funds.

Let me explain.

If the Church is really growing then tithing funds are increasing by the same amount. If tithing funds are growing and the expenditure of those funds isn't out growing it then there would be no need for cutbacks.

Have their been cutbacks recently? Yep.
Is the Church finding new 'funds' to get more money out of it's members? Yep.

Therefore, the funds that the Church has at it's disposal are shrinking. If tithing is shrinking then the Church is shrinking.

it's interesting you bring that up. the TBM peeps i know seem to have convinced themselves that the activities sucking as much as they do and the member janitor thing are products of the poor economy and will disappear as things get better. "everybody has needed to cut back, the prophet is just showing us the way."

it's hilarious to me because the activities were horrid & the budgets shamefully low WAY before the bottom dropped out of the economy. also the obvious: "why didnt the Prophet know about the economic crisis beforehand?"

Here are some stats from my giant family:
Grandma, hardcore TBM. Grandpa, inactive believer.
They had 4 kids. 2 are believers.
Of the 2 daughters who are believers, my aunt has 1 active son and 2 inactive daughters(my cousins, I don't know if they are jack or unbelievers.)
The remaining daughter, my mom, had 8 kids. 5 are open with their disbelief, 1 is still at home, but attends only because of that fact. 1 is semi-active believer, as far as I can tell, but follows the rules and was sealed. The last son is the only one who went on a mission. He came back and married a convert, but I suspect they are inactive on the down-low. or I hope they will be soon.
So just from this one branch of my family, it seems about 25% still believe, and even fewer of them attend church every Sunday and hold callings. That is huge shrinkage.

I'm the only unbeliever in my family. Everyone else is as hardcore TBM as it gets.

HOWEVER

All but maybe 2 of my 10 closest friends from high school have left. I think a couple are inactive unbelievers, but the rest of us are either resigned or on our way to resigning.