Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
I sent this commentary by email after browsing www.the-book-of-mormon.com
I expected no reply, since the usual response to criticism from a pro-LDS website is no response.
After I ignored a spam filter reply, which I assumed blocked my commentary, I got a lengthy reply anyway.
I'm actually personally embarrassed that a supposedly believing mormon would reply like this.
My commentary:
"Have you also backed-up why the book claims a people were cursed with
a skin of blackness, that Columbus was sent by God and tens of
millions perished in his wake, and that the Jews had it coming because
"none other nation on earth would crucify their God".
The worst atrocities known to man, racism and genocide, specifically
toward blacks, Native Americans, and Jews, and you spend your time
"proving" it.
You're WRONG."
www.the-book-of-mormon.com's reply to me:
"1. Why should I back up "why" the book says anything? Not my job. Maybe you can tell me "why" the universe exists. Oh, that's right - Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the "why" - because that would infer purpose, and according to you nitwits, there is no purpose in life. I can't fix your stupidity, but I can at least urge you to try and be consistent.
2. You obviously have a better idea of how the major races evolved. Please enlighten us savages.
3. No one but a MORON thinks "the Jews had it coming." Not even you could be that stupid. Wait, maybe you could.
4. Tens of millions perished in the wake of Columbus? Pray tell, how and when? The total population of the islands visited by Columbus was numbered in the thousands, not the millions, so, you're either lying, or stupendously ignorant. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you're just ignorant. And oh, by the way, if you're going to hold 15th century sailors responsible for knowing about bacterial infections that weren't discovered until several hundred years later, then I guess it's fair for me to hold you responsible for the millions of deaths you personally are going to be responsible for because of the unknown pathogens in your body as well. Ridiculous? Yes, it is, and so is your kindergarten logic. Oh... and by the way... I guess an ATHEIST never, ever passed on an infection to anyone, right? Oh, wait... Come to think of it, I seem to recall a little thing called the Black Death, which killed up to 60% of the entire world's population, started in CHINA and travelled along the Silk Road, reaching the Crimea by 1346. Yes, those NON-Christian Chinese - responsible (by your same logic) for 450 million deaths! Wow, there goes your whole argument down the toilet, huh?
4. The worst atrocities known to man have actually been committed by the godless - if you think the Nazi holocaust (6 million dead) was bad, consider the Soviet holocaust, where 14 million people were sent to gulags and/or executed simply for having the wrong political opinions or for being religious. The Soviet KGB built 53 separate camps and 423 labor colonies, where people were sent without trial, and most were worked to death or starved. Some of my ancestors were among those people, so don't give me your fake atheistic morality bullshit. Do your damn homework before demonstrating your ignorance to the world. Just because there are morons out there who might swallow your line of bullshit doesn't mean it's factual, or even persuasive to anyone with half a brain.
Have a nice day, MORON. Read a book sometime.
By the way, you're now blocked, don't even bother responding.
Mike"
I expected no reply, since the usual response to criticism from a pro-LDS website is no response.
After I ignored a spam filter reply, which I assumed blocked my commentary, I got a lengthy reply anyway.
I'm actually personally embarrassed that a supposedly believing mormon would reply like this.
My commentary:
"Have you also backed-up why the book claims a people were cursed with
a skin of blackness, that Columbus was sent by God and tens of
millions perished in his wake, and that the Jews had it coming because
"none other nation on earth would crucify their God".
The worst atrocities known to man, racism and genocide, specifically
toward blacks, Native Americans, and Jews, and you spend your time
"proving" it.
You're WRONG."
www.the-book-of-mormon.com's reply to me:
"1. Why should I back up "why" the book says anything? Not my job. Maybe you can tell me "why" the universe exists. Oh, that's right - Atheists aren't supposed to believe in the "why" - because that would infer purpose, and according to you nitwits, there is no purpose in life. I can't fix your stupidity, but I can at least urge you to try and be consistent.
2. You obviously have a better idea of how the major races evolved. Please enlighten us savages.
3. No one but a MORON thinks "the Jews had it coming." Not even you could be that stupid. Wait, maybe you could.
4. Tens of millions perished in the wake of Columbus? Pray tell, how and when? The total population of the islands visited by Columbus was numbered in the thousands, not the millions, so, you're either lying, or stupendously ignorant. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you're just ignorant. And oh, by the way, if you're going to hold 15th century sailors responsible for knowing about bacterial infections that weren't discovered until several hundred years later, then I guess it's fair for me to hold you responsible for the millions of deaths you personally are going to be responsible for because of the unknown pathogens in your body as well. Ridiculous? Yes, it is, and so is your kindergarten logic. Oh... and by the way... I guess an ATHEIST never, ever passed on an infection to anyone, right? Oh, wait... Come to think of it, I seem to recall a little thing called the Black Death, which killed up to 60% of the entire world's population, started in CHINA and travelled along the Silk Road, reaching the Crimea by 1346. Yes, those NON-Christian Chinese - responsible (by your same logic) for 450 million deaths! Wow, there goes your whole argument down the toilet, huh?
4. The worst atrocities known to man have actually been committed by the godless - if you think the Nazi holocaust (6 million dead) was bad, consider the Soviet holocaust, where 14 million people were sent to gulags and/or executed simply for having the wrong political opinions or for being religious. The Soviet KGB built 53 separate camps and 423 labor colonies, where people were sent without trial, and most were worked to death or starved. Some of my ancestors were among those people, so don't give me your fake atheistic morality bullshit. Do your damn homework before demonstrating your ignorance to the world. Just because there are morons out there who might swallow your line of bullshit doesn't mean it's factual, or even persuasive to anyone with half a brain.
Have a nice day, MORON. Read a book sometime.
By the way, you're now blocked, don't even bother responding.
Mike"
Looks like Mike was having a very bad day, tee hee. :-)
yet the religious guy calls you stupid and moron. What a jerk.
It is difficult to reason with people who take a scientific study of haplogroup x out of context and distort the report, either innocently, accidentally, or fraudulently.
Here is an example of the pseudo attempt to argue for the BofM:
http://the-book-of-mormon.com/articles/dna-and-the-book-of-mormon/
It quotes from this report:
mtDNA Haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?, 1998
"To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.”
Here is a good link to the full report (the link at the BofM website does not go directly to the report)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1377656/pdf/9837837.pdf
There is more in the report that the website does not mention:
(from second page of the report)
"Despite a shared consensus RFLP haplotype, substantial genetic differences exist between the Native American and European mtDNAs. Phylogenetic analysis indicates that the two groups are related-but only distantly-to each other and that considerable genetic substructure exists within both groups. Further, coalescence-age estimates for haplogroup X in the Americas, based on iether RFLP or CR sequence data, clearly indicate the antiquity of this haplogroup in the New World. Overall, these data exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in Native Americans is due to recent European admixture, and, instead, provide a rigorous demonstration that this haplogroup represents an additional founding mtDNA lineage in Native Americans."
In other words, the website tries to claim that haplogroup x supports the BofM when in fact the very report they quote from shows that it does not.
More recent studies consistently show that haplogroup x is much older than the time period of the Bible (or BofM). Here is a short list. Three here are the work of Dr. Perego, an LDS scientist.
Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X
The American Journal of Human Genetics, 2003
The Phylogeny of the Four Pan-American MtDNA Haplogroups: Implications for Evolutionary Disease Studies (Dr. Perego)
Plos One, March 2008
Distinctive Paleo-Indian Migration Routes from Beringia Marked by Two Rare mtDNA Haplogroups (Dr. Perego)
Current Biology, January 13, 2009
The initial peopling of the Americas: A growing number of founding mitochondrial genomes from Beringia (Dr. Perego)
Genome Research, June 29, 2010
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2011 01:58PM by Hoggle.
Here is an example of the pseudo attempt to argue for the BofM:
http://the-book-of-mormon.com/articles/dna-and-the-book-of-mormon/
It quotes from this report:
mtDNA Haplogroup X: An Ancient Link between Europe/Western Asia and North America?, 1998
"To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.”
Here is a good link to the full report (the link at the BofM website does not go directly to the report)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1377656/pdf/9837837.pdf
There is more in the report that the website does not mention:
(from second page of the report)
"Despite a shared consensus RFLP haplotype, substantial genetic differences exist between the Native American and European mtDNAs. Phylogenetic analysis indicates that the two groups are related-but only distantly-to each other and that considerable genetic substructure exists within both groups. Further, coalescence-age estimates for haplogroup X in the Americas, based on iether RFLP or CR sequence data, clearly indicate the antiquity of this haplogroup in the New World. Overall, these data exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in Native Americans is due to recent European admixture, and, instead, provide a rigorous demonstration that this haplogroup represents an additional founding mtDNA lineage in Native Americans."
In other words, the website tries to claim that haplogroup x supports the BofM when in fact the very report they quote from shows that it does not.
More recent studies consistently show that haplogroup x is much older than the time period of the Bible (or BofM). Here is a short list. Three here are the work of Dr. Perego, an LDS scientist.
Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X
The American Journal of Human Genetics, 2003
The Phylogeny of the Four Pan-American MtDNA Haplogroups: Implications for Evolutionary Disease Studies (Dr. Perego)
Plos One, March 2008
Distinctive Paleo-Indian Migration Routes from Beringia Marked by Two Rare mtDNA Haplogroups (Dr. Perego)
Current Biology, January 13, 2009
The initial peopling of the Americas: A growing number of founding mitochondrial genomes from Beringia (Dr. Perego)
Genome Research, June 29, 2010
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2011 01:58PM by Hoggle.
It's too bad Mike didn't choose to share his "peace that passeth understanding" with your stupid, worthless a**.
His reply was so strong and lacking of any kind of loving kindness that I consider him to be my new religion-off. You spread it around and anyone attracted to your "spirituality" will be repelled into the next county.
Anagrammy
His reply was so strong and lacking of any kind of loving kindness that I consider him to be my new religion-off. You spread it around and anyone attracted to your "spirituality" will be repelled into the next county.
Anagrammy
What an asshole.
Obviously, he has hever heard of (or ignored) the fact that smallpox infected blankets were given to a tribe ON PURPOSE.
Obviously, he has hever heard of (or ignored) the fact that smallpox infected blankets were given to a tribe ON PURPOSE.
Wow, some nerve to hit.
A while ago I posted a BYU professor's reply to some questions my OH had emailed out to the ward after he resigned from the bishopric. Fairly harmless questions, eg why was only one of Brigham Young's wives mentioned in the manual, that kind of stuff.
Someone in the Ward forwarded it to this 'prof' and he sent back the most vituperative reply, full of insults. Absolutely no concern for my husband just accusations. For example he claimed my husband must be either using porn, gay or otherwise immoral, (Because of course gayness is immoral) And nobody ever questions TSCC unless they are immoral.
Unbelievable.
A while ago I posted a BYU professor's reply to some questions my OH had emailed out to the ward after he resigned from the bishopric. Fairly harmless questions, eg why was only one of Brigham Young's wives mentioned in the manual, that kind of stuff.
Someone in the Ward forwarded it to this 'prof' and he sent back the most vituperative reply, full of insults. Absolutely no concern for my husband just accusations. For example he claimed my husband must be either using porn, gay or otherwise immoral, (Because of course gayness is immoral) And nobody ever questions TSCC unless they are immoral.
Unbelievable.
Yes you hit a nerve. This guy reacted that way because he has to defend the un-defendable. There is just no way that these people are thinking things through all the way.
God sent Columbus, millions (not thousands) died, how can we hold 16th century sailors accountable? BECAUSE THEY WERE SUPPOSEDLY SENT BY GOD!!!!!
How can Mike go to church today after those words came out of his mind? "We atheists" have no moral obligation to a god that Mike supposedly does.
God sent Columbus, millions (not thousands) died, how can we hold 16th century sailors accountable? BECAUSE THEY WERE SUPPOSEDLY SENT BY GOD!!!!!
How can Mike go to church today after those words came out of his mind? "We atheists" have no moral obligation to a god that Mike supposedly does.
bingoe4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes you hit a nerve. This guy reacted that way
> because he has to defend the un-defendable.
Yep, people don't get that furious unless they are insecure about their position. Does he see how transparent he is?
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes you hit a nerve. This guy reacted that way
> because he has to defend the un-defendable.
Yep, people don't get that furious unless they are insecure about their position. Does he see how transparent he is?
Not to mention all the other slaughter recorded in the Bible and BoM.
If you have a strong stomach, read the chapter on Columbus in “Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong” by James Loewen.
One of the books that really angred me and made me cry. I also read "Lies Across America" by thr same author.
Why would you be surprised that somebody gets angry at you when clearly you were trying to push their buttons?
He obviously lost his cool, and called you names, but it was in response to a provocation.
He obviously lost his cool, and called you names, but it was in response to a provocation.
I was wrong to push his buttons, and frankly I took advantage of expecting that he was a turn-the-other-cheek, Jesus-answered-them-not, contention-is-of-the-devil, a-soft-reply-turneth-away-wrath, deny-him-not-who-knoweth-the-heart-of-the-wicked-but-that-he-will-repent TBM.
He did TBMs a favor, and I accept his tell-off from the who-asked-you perspective. He did not solicit commentary from me, and in that regard I WAS wrong and I DO not intend to feed bears as a hobby anymore.
Even so, since he DID reply to me, I NOW have rights to it, and I think his reply is telling, even if I'm pure troll...
1) His argument was empty of true premises and his conclusions were non-sequitors.
2) He indulged heavily in adolescent language apparently to invalidate ME, not my (assumed) argument.
3) He rhetorically said bring-it-on (such as do I have an alternative explanation for the different "races", which I certainly do), then bails out.
None of these methods would have been necessary if he simply had an argument to defeat mine.
He did not persuade me that the Book of Mormon doesn't say what I accused it of saying.
He did TBMs a favor, and I accept his tell-off from the who-asked-you perspective. He did not solicit commentary from me, and in that regard I WAS wrong and I DO not intend to feed bears as a hobby anymore.
Even so, since he DID reply to me, I NOW have rights to it, and I think his reply is telling, even if I'm pure troll...
1) His argument was empty of true premises and his conclusions were non-sequitors.
2) He indulged heavily in adolescent language apparently to invalidate ME, not my (assumed) argument.
3) He rhetorically said bring-it-on (such as do I have an alternative explanation for the different "races", which I certainly do), then bails out.
None of these methods would have been necessary if he simply had an argument to defeat mine.
He did not persuade me that the Book of Mormon doesn't say what I accused it of saying.
What a sad fool. Can someone here respond to that and kick his ass? People like this need to be put in their place.
So it's not his place to explain these discrepancies? Pray, whose place is it, then?
of making Mormons really uncomfortable.