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Posted by: movingon29 ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 11:31AM

Hi everyone,

I've posted here a few times. Just a little background. I have pretty much made up my mind about not being involved with the lds church anymore. Married 5 years, no kids. I love my wife, but she can't accept my decision to leave the church, or my methods of seeking information. This morning I got this email from her.

"I don't have an issue with finding truth. But I do have an issue about the way you are going about it. To open up the iPad and find people mocking the Church, to turn on the computer to see a blog left up about Atheism, that is a problem. Your process does not add up to me Aaron and with each click of that stupid mouse you are hurting me in a way I never thought I'd feel from you. Bishop said there is not greater burden to bear than what I am going through. How terrifying that is to recognize that my husband is doing this to me. My body literally aches with pain. 

 You are talking about violating covenants you have made with God, yes. But you are also talking about violating covenants you have made with ME. Perhaps that is why I feel so incredibly betrayed, why suddenly my trust and respect for you is in jeopardy, because you are making light of our relationship, of me. 

You can spend the rest of your life looking up every negative thing or opinion about the Church. But what it truly comes down to is you getting on your knees and asking in sincere prayer. Perhaps that concept seems ridiculous to you now, but even you have had experiences with personal revelation. Even you have read the Book of Mormon, prayed and received an answer. Even you have felt the Holy Ghost. Again, I'm not against you having questions and seeking out answers, but you seem caught in this web of the internet (which yes is a resource, but not doctrine). If you want to know, you know deep down what to do. Get to the basics. Stop milling around in the filth that lies online. Haven't we done that enough? I want to shatter that computer sometimes. Let's look to good sources for help. The book series on the history of the Church, members of our ward, going to the Temple, prayer, reading the very book you are questioning. 

I love you and value what we have so much. I hope you can come back and continue building this relationship with me on what we started it on.

I thought writing this out would help rather than saying it."


She is a sweet wonderful person, and it kills me that what I'm doing is hurting her so much. Coming to this board nd reading about how people are dealing with loss of faith in the lds church is what keeps me going. I have hope that life is going to get better after reading your stories... But how do I respond to this? I've "betrayed" her, I'm "hurting" her. And all the while I feel betrayed by the church. And I'm just trying to be true to myself.

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Posted by: GayLayAle ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 11:37AM

This line glared out at me:

"Bishop said there is not greater burden to bear than what I am going through. How terrifying that is to recognize that my husband is doing this to me."

Sure, as your wife this issue DOES affect her, however, it seems to me that she's making this ALL about her. The bottom line is, this is YOUR journey, and while it may impact her, it doesn't sound at all like she's taking into account the pain and confusion YOU have gone through in all this. It's all about what you're doing to her, and what burden she has to bear.

I'm not trivializing her pain, but she needs to understand the feelings of betrayal you are feeling about an organization you built a life and belief structure around.

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Posted by: T-Rex ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:32PM

It's telling that the "greatest burden" she could go through is you questioning the church. Not that you could be a rapist, murderer, liar, fraud, cheat, thief, child molester, scoundrel, et cetera.

But then again, those are the same qualities of the man who restored the gospel, not that anyone would really know that if they only read church-approved material that censors the true character of J.S.

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Posted by: Queen of Denial ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:34PM

GayLayAleJesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Sure, as your wife this issue DOES affect her,
> however, it seems to me that she's making this ALL
> about her.


I have to admit, that's exactly what I thought while reading the OP.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 02:03PM

But, for the sake of your marriage you probably should keep away from what I say about the church.

Wah wah.

Eventually, you'll find that part of your journey and healing process is to be able to laugh at the silliness of Mormonism.

But the "mocking" is an easy target to hit for TBMs.

Good luck to you, sir.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2011 02:04PM by Raptor Jesus.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 11:42AM

I suspect you haven't lost your love-affection for DW, and that U want the marriage relationship to develop & grow.

Unfortunately, this often isn't possible in the context of Mormonism, because of several factors.

Tell DW how U feel ABOUT HER, your desire to nurture & develop that relationship.

(if inclined) Refer to 1st John where we read that (paraphrase) How can you love God whom you haven't seen if you don't love 'your brother' (sister) whom you have seen?

Mormonism divides families, aided-abetted by a Culture of the Black & White perspective of World & life. This is Pure Evil.

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Posted by: BadGirl ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 11:43AM

Her language is manipulative, and you are buying right into it.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, freedom of conscience, freedom period.
Maybe you could write a letter to her explaining how hurtful it is to YOU that she doesn't love you unconditionally for who you are as a person.

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Posted by: AngelCowgirl ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 11:44AM

I understand what you are going through because that's where my husband and I are at also. One thing that popped into my head was her comment about "covenants to me". She needs to listen to the temple ceremony sometime... all covenants are actually made to the CHURCH.

I started out with strictly "church" sources like the Journal of Discourses, and there was enough in those church sources to convince me to look even further outfield. Perhaps you can try this tactic with her - show her, "Look, Honey, I'm readying JoD!" Read the BoM with her and point out all the discrepancies, not only historically and archaeologically but also to church doctrine. How about the prophet Kimball's book "Miracle of Forgiveness" that is full of stomach-turning trash?

Write her back a sweet and loving letter that tells her it pains YOU that the person you love and adore most does not trust you and your intelligence enough to believe that you may have uncovered some truth worth pursuing. You *CAN* find enough questionable material in church sources that your wife would 'approve' of you reading. The hard part is getting her to see what she is reading in a different way.

So sorry you are going through this.

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Posted by: Anubis ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:20PM

I actually went and verified every fact with church approved sources including farms and fair responses. I have over 186 pages of Mormon facts directly from Mormon only sources.

She looked at my reseach after a simalar discussion about how she could turn her back on her best friend (me) at a time when I hurt more than her. A time when I needed my best friend to hear my side of the story and not shut me out.

Funny thing after she read my stuff she turned to Grant Palmer's Book next few weeks she became more pissed than I had about Mo-ISM and we fell into a love more deeply then we ever had as Mormons.

Now when I have an issue she stands right with me. Even when I am wrong. God she is hot.

Anubis

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Posted by: movingon29 ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:36PM

Okay.. Is there any way you might have said 186 pages in convenient electronic form?! I've started reading History of the Church, but since you've done the research already, it would be awesome to have the page numbers, or direct quotes ready to speed things along. If there's any way you could email me some of your research that would be amazing. Send to "dutchmandown at yahoo dot com" THANK YOU

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Posted by: rodolfo ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:39PM

movingon29 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay.. Is there any way you might have said 186
> pages in convenient electronic form?! I've started
> reading History of the Church, but since you've
> done the research already, it would be awesome to
> have the page numbers, or direct quotes ready to
> speed things along. If there's any way you could
> email me some of your research that would be
> amazing. Send to "dutchmandown at yahoo dot com"
> THANK YOU

Many would benefit from this! Care to post a link to the file??

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Posted by: The StalkerDog™ ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 11:48AM

"But you are also talking about violating covenants you have made with ME"

That's a false argument!

1. You do NOT make wedding vows to each other in the temple, you make vows to THE CHURCH! Does she know that?

2. You made a vow based on a fraud (the church). Since the church is false, your vows are automatically void.

I hate it when people manipulate like that. And that is what she's doing!

Ask her flat-out "Do you care more about the church than you do me?" Her reply may help you know what to do.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 11:59AM

I caution against this not-so-subtle approach.

I would start with an affirmation (sincerely phrased) of your feelings for DW & your hopes for the marriage, relationship, & futures (together).

mention the attractions that brought you together (are those still valid?). Mention commonalities & your desires to learn & grow.

confrontations - ultimatems SELDOM give anyone the desired outcome(s) - results.

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Posted by: The StalkerDog™ ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:24PM

I've never been known for subtlety!

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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 02:07PM

GUY's advise follows a good management practice!! BUT..i think you are in for a ride because your marriage is built upon the Church! and i hope you can make a go of it..... so treat the info you give her like BBQ!!! LOW AND SLOW!! :)

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Posted by: dane ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 11:54AM

She can play the blame game. It won't make her feel any better. She will become bitter and hateful. You, on the other hand, will find liberty and even happiness in divesting yourself from false systems and beliefs.

Let her be responsible her own misery and you move on. Life will only get better from here on. You can still love her and let her go. She may or may not ever get it. It is her life. She gets to choose same as you. You are not responsible for anothers happiness. Even if you choose to try to be, you will fail and most likely will end up miserable yourself. JMHO

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Posted by: piper ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 11:55AM

I think it is definitely worth a deep conversation with your wife. She is going to another man for counsel and advice, and he seems to be coaching her. That would be a problem for me.

By way of concession, maybe you could suggest reading some Mormon sources, like Church history, Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, Journal of Discourses, even the Book of Mormon. There is plenty of garbage about the church to be found in its own sources.

So maybe if she quits looking outside of the marriage for guidance, you can agree to study Church-approved sources with her. Maybe a non-mo counselor could help the two of you. Good luck to you.

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Posted by: mobegone ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 11:59AM

I hate to say this as I'm sure you love your wife, but what she is doing is basically emotional terr0rism. Thinly veiled threats and manipulative language, aided and abetted by Bishop b1n Lad3n.

I would tell her lovingly but clearly that she needs to determine if she loves you unconditionally, and if she is willing to accept you for who you are. I would also call the bishop and tell him to stay the fudge out of your business.

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Posted by: Emma's Flaming Sword ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 11:59AM

I have a couple of suggestions.

Talk to her about what you are discovering but don’t overwhelm her with information. Discuss it more on a philosophical level first. My husband would talk about wanting to know the truth versus wanting to believe. We also talked about the nature of faith. We talked about other religions and how they had faith too.

Only use church sources ie, Journal of Discouces, FARMS there is a ton of information to show her without using anything “anti”.

Remind her of your feelings in all of this. This is not a personal attack on her. It is about seeking the truth.

Try and have discussions not debates. This is the difficult part where you may have to bite your tongue sometimes. My husband was really patient with me and it paid off. In the end after two years I was ready to research on my own. Of course she may never agree to “go there” . There are no guarantees.

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Posted by: ElGuapo ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:00PM

If it helps, tell her you're not doing this to her, her church is doing this to her. If you can help her see how ridiculously manipulative her letter was—and that it's a direct result of the way her church manipulates families—then you might have a chance at working things out.

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Posted by: onendagus ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:01PM

She said the History of the Church series. Yeah I like those. Show her the "rest of the story". BH Roberts figured it all out way back then. His family published his private writings. You could start with those.

Actually, i don't think showing her anything will really help. She isn't ready.

John Dehlin has those podcasts on dealing with a spouse losing their faith. Those would probably best the best help for both of you.

Sorry you are going through this.

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Posted by: Misfit ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:11PM

I feel your pain, movingon, I really do. I'm in the same spot you are- out of the church and dealing w/ a TBM spouse. My advice is take it slow, and be ready to compromise. Since you don't have children, that makes it less complicated, nevertheless, there are challenges ahead for both of you.
She went into the marriage with certain expectations. Expectations about having a worthy priesthood holder to bless your children, being a mom of a missionary, having an eternal marriage, etc. Now, you are not meeting those expectations. Its natural for her to feel betrayed. Show her that you still love her. Tell her that you still love her, and don't say anything that would belittle her own faith.
I wish i could offer more, but I'm still figuring things out on my own.

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Posted by: AngelCowgirl ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:12PM

Moving, I'm guessing you probably feel as I do - you don't WANT to give up on the marriage or let it fall apart. You would love for her to see what you see, to join you in newfound freedom and truth. Don't get too discouraged by people saying "you're better off" - they really do mean well. Some exmo's are lucky and their spouse eventually joins them. Some aren't. We don't know yet which we are, but that doesn't mean we're going to give up trying to help our spouse see the light as well.

And the counseling thing... if you can get her to go to a non-mo counselor, that would be great. Chances are, if she's anything like my DH, a non-mo counselor is equal to the devil and it ain't gonna happen. But that doesn't mean that YOU can't go on your own. That's what I'm trying to do.

You're not alone on this!!

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Posted by: Hervey Willets ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:25PM

" You are talking about violating covenants you have made with God, yes. But you are also talking about violating covenants you have made with ME".

You might (gently) point out that you made no pledges to each other, but pledged everything to the church. No mention of love in the sealing ceremony at all.

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Posted by: The StalkerDog™ ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:24PM

Hervey Willets Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " You are talking about violating covenants you
> have made with God, yes. But you are also talking
> about violating covenants you have made with ME".
>
>
> You might (gently) point out that you made NO [EMPHASIS MINE]
> pledges to each other, but pledged everything to
> the church. No mention of love in the sealing
> ceremony at all.
********************************************************************
Yes, yes, YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:26PM

I'll throw my two cents in here... I was the one with the wife at home when I went to church on Sundays and on youth night.

Playing Devil's advocate here... There is *terrible* pressure on the person who is still "faithful" while their spouse is finding the actual truth.

I would suggest a couple of compromises or suggestions for a e-mail back to her:

- Tell her how you feel about what she wrote... i.e. it pains you that she is getting hurt while you are on your spiritual journey. Recognize her pain. While some people may not sympathize, it is real pain, it's scary, and it is a terrible place to be.
- Explain that you are and will hold to the covenants and promises that you made with her. You love her and always will (assuming that's true). You don't need to state anything about the church, in my opinion, since most people consider their marriage to be above and beyond any ceremony and there is an assumed covenant of love between the two of you whether stated in a ceremony or not.
- Assuming it's true, assure her that you are not mocking her or the LDS church by doing research. Yes, there are some web sites out there that do state mocking and negative comments about the church, but you are trying to find valid sources for real information and that, just like everything on the internet, there is going to be a mix and that you are trying filter though for the truth. Also remind her that the church has stood up to far more than a few people on the internet stating mocking things but, there is truth out there as well.
- Now the hard part (as if there was an "easy" part), because she's not going to want to hear it. Explain that there are some questions that cannot be answered by prayer. Even the church states that Faith without works is dead. You have to do research to find answers. There are valid things you can point to if you want (DNA evidence for American Indians not coming from the Middle East, the modern translations by non-church historians of the Book of Abraham for just a couple of examples). Prayer without doing your own work is not going to give you answers. Heck, they even state that you have to read the Book of Mormon before praying about it, in essence, doing research and meditating on it. You are only comparing "church supplied" history with non-church supplied history and doing the same "searching it out in your mind" test that the church so relies on.
- In as soft terms as possible let her know that if the church is true, shouldn't it be able to stand up under research? Shouldn't there be real answers to these questions beyond "it just feels right"? If the church isn't true, wouldn't you want to know. Yes, there is a lot of good associated with the church, but, if it's based on lies shouldn't that mean you should keep searching for truth?
- Let her know that this is your journey. You don't expect her to change her mind nor do you want to confront or force her into doing something she doesn't want. You're not going to come home one night and expect her to drink a gallon of coffee followed by a bottle of gin and sit around burning church literature. But that doesn't mean that you don't have questions that need answers, real answers not just that you feel good (because, I don't know about you but, I felt just as good after reading "The Lord of the Rings", but that doesn't make it true. I don't know if I'd put that in the e-mail, but it's a point...)
- Finally, Restate that you love her and understand that she may not be ready to face some of the questions that you have and that's "OK". You may want to talk with her about things, but if she's not ready, and you want to keep your marriage together, be OK with that. It's going to take time and care if you want to keep your marriage together.

Other suggestions might be to return the computer and/or iPad web-browser to a "neutral" website before putting it down or handing it over, so she won't be inundated with it. She knows your looking at it, but at least she won't be confronted with it.

If things get too bad, consider marriage counseling with a non-mormon counselor.

Hang in there. While I'm not trying to give false hope, it can get better. My wife and I stayed together the whole time we struggled with this. It can happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2011 12:28PM by Finally Free!.

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Posted by: movingon29 ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:09PM

Thank you so much for this advice. It really helps.

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Posted by: Heathjh ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:14PM

I also like the idea of writing an email. You get to say what you want to say without letting your or her emotions interfere. Make sure you follow it up with an embrace and tell her you love her.

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Posted by: ginger ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:34PM

The thing that kills me is that bishops aren't even counselors. Maybe he is in "real" life but most likely not. They give this advice based on feeling or what they have been taught all their lives. I don't think that's the best route for your wife to go either. I agree, she should see a non-mo counselor. Sorry you're going through this.

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Posted by: cl2 (not logged in) ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:35PM

than what she is going through.

Wanna make a bet?

Cheat on her--then let her feel it. Tell her you are gay. Then see how she feels.

These women are total fools. I would hae stayed with my ex FOREVER and let him cheat all he wanted. I loved him and love that much. Bullshit. She loves the church.

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Posted by: another guy ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:41PM

"Bishop said there is not greater burden to bear than what I am going through."

This is a statement by someone who apparently has not had any real life experiences yet. If you think this is bad, just wait - life has many more painful surprises for you.

"I don't have an issue with finding truth. But I do have an issue about the way you are going about it."

Apparently, she doesn't like finding things on the iPad or the computer. She said she'd like you to study the printed history. Go for it - use Corp-published materials; there's enough there to open a blind woman's eyes.

"You are talking about violating covenants you have made with God, yes. But you are also talking about violating covenants you have made with ME. Perhaps that is why I feel so incredibly betrayed, why suddenly my trust and respect for you is in jeopardy, because you are making light of our relationship, of me."

First, what covenants to god and her are you breaking? Searching after the truth? Isn't the glory of god intelligence? Isn't that written down somewhere? Also, she's internalized your seeking the truth as a personal insult to HER. If you see something that isn't right in the Corp and its cover-ups, she's acting like it is an attack on her (as if she was the one who wrote it).

"I love you and value what we have so much. I hope you can come back and continue building this relationship with me on what we started it on."

The value that she places on your relationship is based on your acceptance of the Corp propaganda. Her relationship with you - and her love for you - is contingent on your blind acceptance of the Corporation. That is what hurts YOU, and she doesn't see that.

I feel for ya, guy.

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Posted by: Glo ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:49PM

The bishop is working against you and it's a damn shame she will believe the bishop but not you, her husband.

You can't win in such a set up.

Don't have kids with her or you will be stuck for good and the kids will grow up in a cult.

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Posted by: tiptoes ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 12:58PM

October 1, 1842 edition Times & Seasons contains affidavit stating JS never heard, taught, or practiced spiritual wifery. I believe there is mention of this is the Church History set--I am not at home right now, but I will look it up if you would like. Then go to familysearch.org and see that the sealing dates for several of JS's wives pre-date the affidavit. A lie is a lie, and it used to mean something to sign your name to such a document. Church approved resources for her.

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Posted by: movingon29 ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:05PM

Please do look it up for me. Thanks.

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Posted by: AngelCowgirl ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:40PM

Try this thread... excellent info and links to 'respectable' sources on this topic: http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon199.htm

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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:10PM

is the 'right' way, but her life is changing before her eyes, and she has no control in the matter. It must be terrifying.

You know it isn't your fault. You never promised to stop growing - in fact Mormonism claims you must progress constantly. You didn't set out to learn it was a fraud, only to learn.

All you can do is constantly reassure her that you still love her just as much, and that you are the same person you were last year when she loved you. It's going to take a lot of work to keep you both from sliding into grief.

You've lost a virtual family member - that third party that was in your marriage, the church. You'll both be going through all the stages of grief. At the end, though, is acceptance and peace.

Hang in there.

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Posted by: Outcast ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:14PM

try to keep the lines of communication open as much as possible. the ideal is for you both to go thru this process of discovery together and come out the other side with a stronger marriage.

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Posted by: Tauna ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:16PM

Does your wife know that the word 'Love' does not appear in the mormon temple wedding ceremony? The whole ceremony is a polygamous ceremony. It is online and you should have your wife read it (side by side with D&C 132). It's about as loveless as you can get.

Also, unless your bishop is professionally trained in marriage counseling, he needs to shut up and quit giving your wife advice. I think you and him should have a little talk.

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Posted by: rodolfo ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:21PM

finding out that after all this time the organization you gave your life and heart to is false and deceptive!

I would say this:

I thought you married me because you knew who I was and understood my character, my commitment to truth, my honest seeking and my good faith and fair dealing. Now all of a sudden it seems that only my mormonism was sufficient evidence for you of these things.

You must be blind if you can't see that I have come to my conclusions BECAUSE of my character, my honesty, and my commitment to truth, and that the tremendously difficult and excruciating decision to leave mormonism is EVIDENCE of my character (which you said was the reason you loved me and married me).

Perhaps the truth is that you never knew me at all, and if this is really true, I am relieved to have discovered it now.

The truth is that if you really knew my character and commitment to truth, you would want to understand what is so disturbing about the facts I have discovered to an honest man. If you really knew my character you would realize that you merely had to present honest and accurate facts to convince me of a different position, rather than attack my research methods. If you really knew my character you would not presume that I AM SO STUPID that I cannot tell what is merely anti-mormon bullshit and what is accurate and reliable information whether it is on the Internet or anywhere else.

IT IS NOT MY FAULT THAT THE CHURCH DOES NOT TELL THE TRUTH.

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Posted by: movingon29 ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:38PM

This is exactly what I'm feeling. Well said.

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Posted by: kookoo4kokaubeam ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:22PM


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Posted by: Washed and Disappointed ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:26PM

From what you wrote, she seems to have a problem with the big bad internet. Okay, go to the library and check out some respectable looking books. Slow down the internet activity for a while. I don't know exactly what you have shared with her regarding your concerns with the church, but we all know there are great books for every subject. Avoid books that are obviously "anti" (in her eyes), and since you mentioned the atheism interest, avoid anything by Dawkins or Hitchens....too put-offish.

Also, she is much more likely to pick up a book than surf RFM, Mormonthink, etc.

Good luck!

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:41PM

No matter what the quality of research you do, no matter whether your information comes on a computer screen or in a book or pamphlet, one person waking from the shared illusion of Mormonism creates a breach of unity in a marriage.

If you crunch on something strange in your mouth when you are chewing, you spit out the whole mouthful into your napkin. You do not pick out the shard or rock and then put the rest back in your mouth. When you discover the truth about Mormonism there is the same huge revulsion and a reflux to push away from you everything in your life that is Mormon.

This feels to your mate that you are rejecting her, too, and in a way she's right. People in your position who love their spouses have the challenge of stifling their natural "vomit" reflex to allow their spouse the opportunity to have what you may call a "personal experience" with the lies of the Church.

It has been astonishing to me that you can show evidence to a person who is not ready to hear it and they will nullify it in their own mind immediately. So the search for the perfect nugget of Mormon falsehood, the smoking gun if you will, is futile. For example, you show them the Times and Seasons polygamy statement and the temple dates for endowments for Joseph Smith and they'll say, "somebody forged his name" or "Somebody probably set him up." We believe what we want to believe.

So the question to the thoughtful person becomes, how do we get someone to be open to the idea that it might not be true? How do we get them to want to NOT believe. You yourself are a great motivator here. You are her most intimate friend. She knows you better than anyone. And you are changing under her nose--and this is your opportunity to seize or throw away.

Become a better man as a result of the greater light that you now have. Give her what the Mormon church cannot give her and you will be that motivation to open her mind. What is it that you and only you can give her? You know the real person (notice I did not say woman) underneath the Mormon role, the motherhood role, the wife role, the woman role. Tell her. See her in this new way and tell her. Say things to her like, "What happened to those beautiful baskets you used to collect?" or "I don't see you taking many pictures any more. I thought the composition on your photographs was fabulous. I'd like to drive down to Southern Utah and you bring your camera. You could do so much with those shapes." This is the sound of knowing someone and loving them.

Contrast that with the demeaning drivel she gets from Mormonism. My friend, they are not a tough act to follow if you get my drift.

Every woman in Mormonism is a woman wrapped in roles like an artichoke with all those leaves. Down inside there is a sweet heart, but it takes a lot of work to get there. You have done that work and now is the time to have it pay off for both of you.

Read the temple covenants together. She will cry, because this experience feels like a big loss to her. She is grieving losing you! You are no longer the person she married and she is fearful of what you will become. SHe already has received advice to dump you, I guarantee. Tell her you are sorry that she has suffered so much pain and point this out to her. Tell her the temple marriage language clearly bind both of them to the church first and then to each other. Tell her you want to renew your vows to mean what you intended--that you would be bound to her and no one else WITHOUT the caveat "as you are faithful to the ordinances and covenants, etc."

And mean it. Give her a piece of jewelry to represent this new commitment - as nice as you can afford. Continue to support her by telling her she is so much more than an office manager, a YM teacher, or whatever other roles she has taken on.

Every human being longs for deep connection with another, desires to be truly known and loved. The plastic card of promise of happiness in some polygamous afterlife cannot compare to the love of someone to whom you are unique in all the world.

The choice is yours - you can really marry this woman and lead her out of a cult, or you can spit her out with the rest of the Mormon trash that makes you sick.

There are people with successful lives here on this board who represent both choices. Good luck!

ANagrammy

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:53PM

This is beautiful advice. I wish that someone had told this to my wife when we were going though this... I wish that I had been ready to hear it myself at the time, but we all take our own paths.

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Posted by: PalMac Apostate ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 01:48PM

I feel for you, my wife said many of those same things but things change and even my wife is more of a NOM now. Some advice keep your research to yourself, urge her to be herself even if that means she has to surround herself in TSCC while the shock of this is still new. After some time things will ease and you should be able to discuss things, but always discuss the issues on her terms and be respectful. Arguing and heated discussions got me nowhere.

Also, remind her you are using your agency and she needs to let you go through this on your terms. She doesn't have to support you but she has to let you have your journey.

Good luck.

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Posted by: milamber ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 02:02PM

Dude, imho, your wife going to another man for guidance about personal issues between you and her is nothing short of an emotional affair.
The part that sucks the most is that she is taking his advice over listening to you. The bishop has made you out to be the bad guy.


I think that you need to have a talk with this bishop and let him know that he is jeopardizing your marriage by sticking his nose in your business and pretending that he has a clue as to what should be done. Be very clear with him that he is to stay out of 'your' business. If your wife wishes to continue the emotional affair, then I would start thinking about packing my stuff and getting the hell out of that mess.

I would deal with this issue first. She will never listen to anything you have to say about the truth because she is getting conformation about what she wants to be true from someone she respects more than you.

I hate saying all that, but I can't help it. Sorry you have to go through any of this.
At least you are finding your way out of that cult.

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Posted by: elcid ( )
Date: July 19, 2011 02:31PM

Tell her that the journey to find truth is one worth taking. It involves looking at many things, from many sources. As with any subject matter (politics, the federal debt, the economy, religion, etc.) there are people (sources) who have a "viewpoint". That viewpoint is important to bear in mind when considering the information, but it is not necessarily a reason to dismiss the things they have to say. To spend an entire life reading about your religion and only read things written by believing members limits your ability to make a reasoned and sound judgement about something that demands so much of your time and money. Point out that much of the information you have run across comes out in "anti" sources but is also available from friendly sources, such as familysearch.org (Joseph Smith's sealing dates to women already married to other men). Many sources are books written by believing Mormons (Todd Comption, "In Sacred Lonliness"; Richard Bushman, "Rough Stone Rolling", etc.).

The bottom line is that she needs to be told that you are an individual with a desire to obtain truth and live by it. You love her and what you are doing is not illegal or immoral. In fact it is praisworthy to search for the truth. She needs to re-evaluate how she views your activities. When all is said and done you can tell her she is free to spend her time as she wishes and so are you. She is free to believe in something without critically examining it, but it is foolish to do so, in your opinion.

Being "deceived" is something that is an ad hominum attack posture. Just as Mormons say the lapsed Mormon is deceived, the non-believing Mormon who has studied the religion and its history can say the believing Mormon is deceived. Saying such things is an impediment to a true understanding of each others viewss.

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