http://community.babycenter.com/post/a28663561/anybody_else_tired_of_being_poor

I think the economy has made it hard for a lot of people, not just Mormons paying tithing. However, reading this woman's post, I think maybe she's realizing that tithing is making her poorer than she has to be. Lots of "I love our life, but..." and "I know tithing will bring blessings, but..."

And she is a SAHM who has two kids with another on the way, though her husband is in school. No wonder they're broke. But, I guess the Lord will provide... /sarcasm

Will be interested if you would share other comments they post. Yes, it must be very hard to "endure" this when you have so many concerns....feeding kids and clothing them and seeing they get to the Dr. when necessary. Then the regular bills, the gas needed, the car repair, the rent or Mortgage, and of course many of the adults need(????) their toys- games, etc. Mom's have it hard I think because they see the needs of those at home more than a Dad who works does. No way would I, a nevermo, ever put the church over my kids needs. Hey she could use birth control to keep from being more in the poorhouse. Bet she never thought of that though. Not the Mormon way.

that sill need bodies?!?!?!?!

Oh yea.....forgot about that.

"I know its not their fault or ours..." I got news for you sweetie, it's YOUR fault completely for breeding like crazy with no real visible means of support and for paying a portion of what little $ you have to a cult! Sucker! You made your bed now lie in it.

She is so clueless.

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> I know its not their fault or ours.

Actually, yes it is her fault (unless you give her a pass because of her upbringing). She and her husband got married young and started a family on a low-wage single-income and give away ten percent of their income to an organization that is telling them how to fail financially. This is exactly what happens when you have a family early and want to be a SAHM before you grow up, educate yourself, establish a savings, etc.

I watched my parents do it for years-- and the parents aren't the only ones who suffer. It's a cycle of very poor decision-making that was motivated by their commitment to the church. My parents used the gospel as their guide, and rejected what should have been common sense.

They saw other people around them who were SO blessed, and never made the connection that the "blessed" people were generally people who had more education to begin with and/or didn't have children until they were more established despite the words of the 'brethren'.

How many of us have BEEN her?

I know I have.

If they're struggling this much, it's leading her to start to question. That's a good thing.

I don't think she'd ever listen to that little doubt voice in the back of her head if she knew that the very people who could say "hey, there IS a way out of this mess" were laughing their asses off at her. Seems to me that it would just push her back, deeper into the same poisonous Mormon-think that is keeping her miserable and poor.

to know that there was no way we could start a family while we were in school or living on one income. Of course, we weren't morg then but even then common sense should dictate that you don't start a family until you are ready and able to support them. And she will likely never change. Evey ward I was ever in featured a few families like this, struggling along, popping out the bodies for the spirits once a year, drawing church welfare, and tearfully pronouncing from the stand once a month about how "grateful they are for their trials!" Bleech.

Really, tony?

First, good for you! I'm glad you didn't make that mistake, it'll give you a great leg up on life.

Given that neither of you were members at that stage in your life, though, you obviously have no idea how it feels, especially the sort of massive pressure if you're a married student at BYU or any of the other church schools. Imagine still being Mormon and being constantly told over the pulpit that you were selfish and bad for not starting a family yet.

Second, SOME OF US DO CHANGE!!!

I rushed into marriage at 18. I had my first miscarriage at 19, and then kids at 21 and 24, dropping out of school due to health problems.

It opened my eyes to see that the same people who were willing to place so much emotionally manipulative pressure on us to have a baby turned the other way as soon as I was a "problem" pregnancy. Massive health problems, emergency C-section, severe PPD, and almost dying three months after due to a blood clot in my leg--and they all didn't give a damn. NO ONE helped us. In fact, we had our bishop threaten to withdraw my husband's ecclesiastical endorsement because he was home with me, worried I might harm myself or our child. Don't even get me started about the financial hole we're still digging ourselves out of. Start families young AND stay out of debt my ass.

It took me time, and and another child, before I realized what a mistake I was making...but I'm OUT, and I am FREE! Now, I just need to dig my way out of the lifetime worth of crap that growing up in a ridged LDS family that believes every word spoken by a bunch of white-haired ninnies gave me.

If you didn't grow up in it, I'm not sure you'd understand.

At very least, if you can't stand Mormon culture, then stop emulating it by being so damn judgmental and playing judge and jury to this girl before her lifetime has run it's course.

And boo-freaking-hoo for the poor, misguided morgbot who is depressed over the lot in life SHE CHOSE as an adult, I don't care if she was born into it or not. You know, my wife and I had some hard times after we were finished with college and were starting our careers so I know what she is going through. We didn't make much money and having our first child made it tough for a while but we persevered and didn't bitch on internet bulletin boards about how our life sucked because of THE CHOICES WE MADE!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2011 12:30PM by tony.

Click on the "like" button on that one Tony.

i was not raised in the covenant or church..... but i can see where, when you are a child you are HEAVILY influenced by your parents and other authority figures..... maybe a little slack would be in order here for the "poor souls" that have a hard time.... because of their choices..... those "choices" were influenced heavily due to the indoctrination from childhood up to being an adult......
I would give them slack tony.... but...thats just me....
just sayin!

looks to me like someone has a bit of a god complex......making yourself judge,jury and excutioner. wow i wish i was so perfect! Not!!!!

Please read up on the effects of mind control and brainwashing before you talk about freedom of choice. The bizarre thing about mind control is how it can be happening to a person without the person realizing it. And it does limit the person's ability to choose. If you can't see any other options for yourself, you can't choose those options. That's why totalitarian dictators control the information so profoundly...so they can limit your choices by limiting your vision of what you deserve, what is available, what is desirable. It's also why some BIC's have a harder time leaving the church than some converts - because they can't really see clearly from an non-Mo perspective about what is and isn't possible for their lives. They are locked into one way of thinking, which you must know if you ever tried to reason with a Mormon. They are impossible because they can't think outside the box they are imprisoned in. That limits their ability to make good life choices. If you were able to overcome that, wonderful. But it's very difficult.

Vassalissa doll, I totally sympathize with your predicament. I too made choices based on what I'd been taught most of my life was the best I could aspire to in life. And instead of the promised happiness, I was in a miserable place with a husband in school, living in Utah, far from family or friends or anyone I could relate to. I was fortunate in that I was older and had money but it was a very dark time in my life, made much worse by the crushing disappointment that I'd made every correct choice (as defined by the church) and I'd ended up in hell anyway. I'd stayed a virgin, graduated from BYU, served a mission, married an RM in the temple...I'd made all the "right" choices. What I'd been told all my life were the right choices and I ended up in a huge, deep mess. How had that happened? Because I didn't decide what was best for me. I lived up to what someone else told me was right for me. Disaster.

Dude,

We obviously disagree. I never said anything that was a personal attack.

I have to ask, though...for you to be this judgmental about another human soul, who you only know via a tiny blip in another forum, why in the world did you leave the church? I'd think you'd still be happy as a clam there.

I really hope you've renounced Christianity in whatever soul searching you've done since leaving, because your words here are not those of a follower of Jesus Christ.

Thanks everyone who backed me up...means a lot to me. It isn't easy to see your life a mess and take the personal responsibility to fix it, but it can be done. I firmly believe that people like this girl who have fallen into a pit by trying to be good and faithful members deserve an extended hand of friendship, not ridicule.

I agree with you vasalissasdoll. It's easy for someone who didn't grow up in the culture of Mormonism to say that this girl should just have had "common sense" That's exactly one of the problems with growing up in the church, we are not taught to use common sense--in fact sometimes we were actually taught to forgo our common sense in the name of being obedient to the prophet (having kids as quickly as possible is an example of that). Actually, I'd go so far as to say that the church doesn't even allow a child to really develop a decent amount of "common sense" because of the brainwashing that occurs from the time we are born. And, often times we were taught to ignore our intuition or "gut feelings" (which I think is part of common sense). What a TBM would say is common sense probably wouldn't even seem like common sense to most people outside of the church because their "common sense" has to line up with what the church teaches. This is something I realized once I left the church--I realized I am sorely lacking in the common sense arena because I wasn't able to develop it normally like most people do. Also, many TBMs are denied typical life experiences that help a person develop common sense, which I believe comes in large part from learning from our mistakes. So what may seem obvious to an outsider, like simple "common sense" wouldn't necessarily be obvious to a TBM.

In contrast to the culture of quick marriage and babies at BYU (I know it's not all the students, but many of them,) of all my acquaintance from my nevermo undergraduate days, I only knew of one married couple. This was at a large state university. The husband in question was my grad-student RA, the couple was living in the dorm, and they had no children.

Everyone else, both male and female, delayed marriage and children until their education was completed (including grad school for many of them,) and their careers were underway. This was back in the 1970's.

My brother's undergraduate experience back in the 60's was similar -- among his peers, marriage while you were still in school was rare, and children even rarer.

It helps, of course, that most nevermos are unconcerned about premarital sex. If your sexual needs are being met, there's no rush to marry, and if you're not married, you're not going to worry about having kids. Almost all of the people I knew from back then did eventually marry and have families.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2011 01:49PM by summer.

Yeah, common sense would say so ... but they are told to 'live on faith' and that 'god will provide' ...'if they are faithful' ...

and, one of my personal favorites: 'pioneers had it so much harder and endured with faith so we can do it too'

ugh

That's a good observation, Vasalissasdoll.

The world has changed a lot from when Tommy Monson and his buddies at the COB were young and starting their families. I'm not sure that young people nowadays can appreciate just how much it's changed.

When I was growing up in the 1960's, it was really rare for married women to work. This was a legacy from my grandmother's day in the 1920's and 30's when women, lacking modern conveniences, spent huge chunks of time running their households. In the 1940's through the 60's, once a man had secured steady employment, it was rare for him to change jobs. He stayed with his employer for his lifetime. Layoffs were rare and were considered shameful -- employers avoided them if at all possible. The concept of paying a married man a "family wage" was in its heyday. Corporate execs were not paid outsize sums of money, leaving more money for those at the bottom and middle of the ladder. And to the best of my memory, money stretched a lot further than it does at present.

That's the world that Monson & company remember. That world has long vanished. They read about the new economy but they don't really get it on a visceral level. Why would they? And yet they keep preaching the old ways to the young people just starting out -- the young people who were born into a different world.

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Is anyone else bothered by the concept of a nine-month old breaking his leg in three places?

It made me a bit anxious as well.

I agree with what you said about the economy. Basic wage has slowly fallen behind over the past 30 years...my husband works two jobs--more then 65 hours per week--and we can barely pay rent.

It's hard to see that when you're a starry-eyed newlywed being told that the only thing that makes you special in the church is your ability to have babies.

I have a friend whose baby daughter broke her leg when my friend was carrying her and fell down.

I only read, lightly, the first page. I find it remarkable that no one after the OP mentioned tithing.

It may be that some of them don't pay and didn't want to go there. I hope so, because they certainly have their share of difficulties.

But others probably pay their 10 percent and more without question. Not one of them, in the posts I read, suggested to the OP that maybe she and her husband should pay their bills instead of their tithing. Even though I was TBM and always paid my tithing, from this distance it simply seems incredible.

I also wondered about the 9-month-old with his leg broken in three places.

I think this conversation is getting out of hand. Yes its her mistake for paying what she clearly doesn't have to give. But it's not right to make her feel horrible about it. And yes I know that it's just a link to another blog post. But still, if that lady finds this, I would hope she sees a bunch of replies that support her and encourage her, that hasn't happened yet.

We were broke all the time pinching pennies and pulling our hair out trying to manage all our financial obligations. We would sit down weekly and try to account for every cent while wholeheartedly giving the church 10% of our Gross income. While we tried to figure out how to keep the collesction agencies off our back, we were giving the church over 400 a month. And what did we get for it? The assurance that we were being blessed for our faith.

Being young and raising a family while in school is hard enough, but to be forced into giving up 10% before tazes and school loans and diapers is wrong. And it is wrong of the church to coerce you into paying that much money when you're already giving birth to multiple future tithtepayers.

I realize I am a nevermo and it isn't just Mormons that pay tithing. When I was getting my MSW/MPH, part of my training was doing home visits with clients who had medical needs. One of my clients was totally broke, but she gave a lot of money to her non-Mormon church. She had outstanding medical bills and lived in a ramshackle house with her husband, one of her grown sons and his wife, and their kids (my client's grandkids). Their house reeked of urine and was literally falling apart, but it was well-equipped with lots of electronics, nice furniture, and toys.

I remember asking her why she paid so much tithing if she was so poor and she told me about how the Lord commanded it and would give her blessings if she paid. I was raised Christian and went to church regularly as a kid, but I don't remember ever being taught that I should pay the church before I paid my bills. To me, it just doesn't make any sense. Of course, I no longer attend church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2011 12:49PM by knotheadusc.

My dad asked me many times "You wouldn't have married him if you knew he was gay, would you?" I never told him the answer to that until about 9 months before he died--and then I told him that the leaders TOLD ME it was my JOB to save him. My dad was furious. (He always knew that gays didn't choose to be gay--good to have a dad who had a brain.) When I told him why--he always thought I was extremely wise--and still did--but he KNEW immediately why I would marry someone gay as I was so devout mormon and would believe my leaders had my best interests at heart.

Anyway--my ex and I were quite well off financially. We did get married young. He had his education. I had an EXCELLENT job when we married--and money in the bank--and we bought a house within months of our twins being born and me quitting my job. AND we were sailing along doing better than anyone in our families (I had also gone back to work by choice) and then he left . . . and my finances went in the toilet and it took me at least 10 years to clean them up--I'm only now on the other side of that.

My sister and her husband had 3 kids and 1 miscarriage in 4 years and both finished college and it took them just as many years to dig out as it did me.

BUT my boyfriend--he was set financially until his divorce and he isn't mormon. He thought he had "done it all correctly," got his degree before marriage, waited to have kids until 5 years after marriage and only had 2, and after 26 years of marriage, his wife wanted a divorce and she cleaned him out and he is looking at his 3rd layoff in 6-1/2 years (since she left) this week at age 58 (with an advanced degree).

So--it really doesn't matter how "brain washed" we were--none of us can predict what will happen.

I'm just curious, and maybe being mean...I've been poor and struggled my whole married and now getting divorced life. But really it was all our fault....

So, if they are so broke, why is she online? Maybe she should sell the computer, get rid of internet....We have an antenae on our roof that I put up. I only have internet for school. We have no cell phones.

I feel for them, but it is not all it seems. Also, for the poster who said they pay back medicaid and wic, not true. One hospital bill of 50,000 bucks takes a lot more than their taxes to pay back.

I have to say no to my kid alot, and I hate it. But at least I'm not paying tithing.

Good points....many of us have had times in our life that were difficult. But I think the girl is just needing to vent. Wants to know she is not alone. But she is not learning what it takes to live a life on a budget and feel good at the end of each month. She hasn't a clue. So yes, I feel for her but unless she gets some real financial education in this matter that is all she can do VENT. She is stuck. She has her orders to reproduce and if she doesn't well, she is not as worthy. One can do little about that unless she truly wants help to change her life. I sort of doubt she does. She went to BABY CENTER.

Yes, they made the decisions to breed early and often like Mormons do, and they're dutifully paying their tithing. It's just that once the decision is made, it's made. And it's made when you're too young to really understand that obeying God isn't what's going to make you successful. It's preparing wisely for your future. These people should have been advised against this lifestyle by their families and church, but instead they were rushed into it like we all were.

Like I said, it's hard not to assign blame. I was an active Mormon, and I waited until I was done with college to get married.

Some people are taught and believe the Lord will provide if only they tithe they will learn lessons and be blessed, and that to be good Mormons we should go ahead and have lots of children. These ideals form from a young age and if you marry young, you don't have an accurate idea as to how much money it takes to live and buy things and care for little ones. Sometimes the lesson that you should not have spread yourself so thin does not come until it is too late. With youth comes idealism and a pureness of thought and faith. This changes a bit once you realize there is no lesson out of it other than you should have been more practical.

Sacrifices must be made to build a mall in SLC.