The recent church news article seemed to suggest that JS saw the characters in his brain. That's not what other church leaders have indicated, i.e. he saw actual characters in the stone (not his brain). Below is an excerpt from "MORMONTHINK.com"

It is notable that the term "Urim and Thummim" is not found in the Book of Mormon and was never used by Joseph Smith with reference to producing the Book of Mormon until after 1833. In that year, a close associate of Joseph Smith, W.W. Phelps, speculated that the ancient Nephite interpreters mentioned in the Book of Mormon and by Joseph Smith might be the Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament. Phelps wrote in the LDS publication The Evening and Morning Star (Jan. 1833) that the Book of Mormon had been translated, "through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles - (known perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim). Phelps words, "known perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummin" show that it was merely speculation on his part that associated Joseph's magic seer stone with the biblical Urim and Thummim. Phelps' speculation gained quick popularity to the point where LDS writers used the term Urim and Thummim to refer to both the mystical interpreters Joseph Smith said were with the gold plates, and to the seer stone Joseph placed in his hat while dictating the Book of Mormon. As a result, many LDS writings used the term Urim and Thummim synonymously for seer stone. An example of this confusion of the terms is provided by the tenth President of the LDS church, Joseph Fielding Smith:

The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is now in the possession of the Church.

According to David Whitmer, the entire Book of Mormon text we have today came through Joseph's seer stone and not through the Nephite interpreters. In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints' Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English.
These comments from David Whitmer regarding the loss of the "Interpreters" and Joseph's subsequent use of his stone, help clarify some confusion regarding what exactly Joseph used to produce the Book of Mormon. When Joseph first announced the discovery of gold plates with strange engravings, he also claimed there were special spectacles called "Interpreters" that were with the plates. Joseph said these were to help in the translation process. However, after Martin Harris lost the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon translation that Joseph loaned to him, Joseph claimed that the angel took back both the plates and the Interpreters as punishment to Joseph. He would later get back the gold plates, but was told he would not receive the Interpreters, but instead was allowed to use his seer stone to produce all of the Book of Mormon we have today. As time went on, Joseph Smith and others would refer to the seer stone both as "Interpreters" and as the "Urim and Thummim."

Note: We contacted apologists at FAIR and they also agreed that it was W.W. Phelps who first coined the phrase "Urim and Thummim"



Even LDS apologist Stephen Ricks acknowledges that the term "Urim and Thummim" was not used by any Mormon until about 1833:

"the term Urim and Thummim (first used by W. W. Phelps in 1833), which is generally associated with the Nephite interpreters, is frequently used in a rather undifferentiated manner to indicate either the seer stone or the interpreters."

B.H. Roberts
Although Mormon historian B. H. Roberts claimed that Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim, he frankly admitted that he sometimes used a "Seer Stone" to translate the plates: "The Seer Stone referred to here was a chocolate-colored, somewhat egg-shaped stone which the Prophet found while digging a well in company with his brother Hyrum,... It possessed the qualities of Urim and Thummim, since by means of it - as described above - as well by means of the Interpreters found with the Nephite record, Joseph was able to translate the characters engraven on the plates." (Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 1, page 129)

B.H. Roberts explains the difference between the seer stone and the translating device found in the stone box:

"The sum of the whole matter, then, concerning the manner of translating the sacred record of the Nephites, according to the testimony of the only witnesses competent to testify in the matter is: With the Nephite record was deposited a curious instrument, consisting of two transparent stones, set in the rim of a bow, somewhat resembling spectacles, but larger, called by the ancient Hebrews 'Urim and Thummim,' but by the Nephites 'Interpreters.' In addition to these 'Interpreters' the Prophet Joseph had a 'Seer Stone,' possessed of similar qualities to the Urim and Thummim; that the prophet sometimes used one and sometimes the other of these sacred instruments in the work of translation; that whether the 'Interpreters' or the 'Seer Stone' was used the Nephite characters with the English interpretation appeared in the sacred instrument; that the Prophet would pronounce the English translation to his scribe, which when correctly written would disappear and the other characters with their interpretation take their place, and so on until the work was completed" (B.H. Roberts, The Seventy's Course in Theology, First Year, p.111).

Always seemed to be flip-flopping between these "rocks dangling from a silver bow" [I always had an image of those big goofey sunglasses....] and the seer stone.

Obiously a seer stone is singular...and the big goofey glasses had two stones.

It never made sense to me...until I realized it was all fantasy. Then it made perfect sense.

This is actually called imagining.

So if he imagined it then he made it all up.

In the article Brant Gardner alludes to the notion that Joseph Smith saw the images in his hat with his ‘brain’ and not through his ‘eyes,’ as if this somehow made this form of hocus pocus more valid than seeing the images the other way.

This theory does not hold water as Joseph testified to the fact that the use of the seer stone hurt his eyes and that he could not use it for extended periods of time, and in fact committed to giving it up entirely before he began what amounted to the use of it to translate about 4,000 words a day for the Book of Mormon (his eyes didn’t hurt as much when he saw REAL money signs in them).

I find the most truthful words spoken by Mr. Gardner in the article are these: “some people have brains that can generate very vivid images.” There can be no doubt that Joseph Smith was blessed with a very vivid imagination. Too bad he didn’t do his homework before he invented the non-plagiarized portions of the Book of Mormon.

"In an 1890 interview, William Smith, brother of Joseph Smith, described the "Urim andthummin".

Explaining the expression as to the stones in the Urim and thummim being set in two rims of a bow he said: A silver bow ran over one stone, under the other, arroundover that one and under the first in the shape of a horizontal figure 8 much like a pairof spectacles. That they were much too large for Joseph and he could only see through one at a time using sometimes one and sometimes the other. By putting his head in a hat or some dark object it was not necessary to close one eye while looking through the stone with the other. In that way sometimes when his eyes grew tires [tired] he releaved them ofthe strain. He also said the Urim and Thummim was attached to the breastplate by a rod which was fastened at the outer shoulde[r] edge of the breastplate and to the end of the silver bow. This rod was just the right length so that when the Urim and thummim was removed from before the eyes it woul<d> reac<h> to a pocked [pocket?] on the left side of the [p.509] breastplate where the instrument was kept when not in use by the Seer. I was not informed whether it was de-tacha<bl>e from the breastplate or not. From the fact that Joseph often had it with him and sometimes when at work<,><I> am of the opinion that it could be detached. He also informed us that the rod served to hold it before the eyes of the Seer."
(William Smith interview with J.W. Peterson and W.S.Pender, 1890, from "Statement of J. W. Peterson Concerning William Smith," 1 May1921, Miscellaneous Letters and Papers, RLDS Church Library-Archives, Independence,Missouri. Available in "Early Mormon Documents, Vol 1, Vogel)"

found at http://www.realmormonhistory.com/newpage13.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2011 11:48AM by jw the inquizzinator.

Now the question is - is this what Joseph told William or did William actually see the orginal U&T? I'm not aware of anyone claiming to actually see the U&T with the breastplate.


jw the inquizzinator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "In an 1890 interview, William Smith, brother of
> Joseph Smith, described the "Urim andthummin".
>
> Explaining the expression as to the stones in the
> Urim and thummim being set in two rims of a bow he
> said: A silver bow ran over one stone, under the
> other, arroundover that one and under the first in
> the shape of a horizontal figure 8 much like a
> pairof spectacles. That they were much too large
> for Joseph and he could only see through one at a
> time using sometimes one and sometimes the other.
> By putting his head in a hat or some dark object
> it was not necessary to close one eye while
> looking through the stone with the other. In that
> way sometimes when his eyes grew tires he
> releaved them ofthe strain. He also said the Urim
> and Thummim was attached to the breastplate by a
> rod which was fastened at the outer shoulde edge
> of the breastplate and to the end of the silver
> bow. This rod was just the right length so that
> when the Urim and thummim was removed from before
> the eyes it woul reac to a pocked on the left
> side of the breastplate where the instrument was
> kept when not in use by the Seer. I was not
> informed whether it was de-tachae from the
> breastplate or not. From the fact that Joseph
> often had it with him and sometimes when at
> work<,> am of the opinion that it could be
> detached. He also informed us that the rod served
> to hold it before the eyes of the Seer."
> (William Smith interview with J.W. Peterson and
> W.S.Pender, 1890, from "Statement of J. W.
> Peterson Concerning William Smith," 1 May1921,
> Miscellaneous Letters and Papers, RLDS Church
> Library-Archives, Independence,Missouri.
> Available in "Early Mormon Documents, Vol 1,
> Vogel)"
>
> found at
> http://www.realmormonhistory.com/newpage13.htm