Think about it: Our "Heavenly Father" who, with an alleged heavenly mother is the literal parent of the entire human race including Lucifer and all his wicked followers. Add to that the Mormon obsession with genealogy and, voila!, ancestor worship.

But not only Mormonism, all religions, too. Think about it.

For a broader view of religious groups, besides Christian-oriented, which your post seems to focus on, read Stephen Prothero's "God is Not One: The Eight Rival Religions that Run the World and Why Their Differences Matter."

Several of the 8 listed are not closely related to the familial pattern. Some of the 8 most influential religious beliefs Prothero lists are polythesistic, and some of their "gods" are less ethical than humans, and adherents do not idolize them, or consider them anything like a Heavenly Father, Mother, Brother, etc. They would not want to be related to the gods in any way (some Hindu and Yoruba gods). Originally Buddhism was not a god centered religion, so no familial idealism exists. Confucionism can be regarded as "religious humanism." They don't care about theology at all. They don't worship a God, and some argue that it's more of a system of ethics and ritual than religion.

I'm not trying to be difficult and throw cold water on your post. And I apologize in advance if I did. But expanding our world view when it comes to religion is a good thing to do, so we do not relate everything to only the tiny slice of religious experience we are familiar with. Being a Mormon isolates us, and our understanding of the rich and vast variety of life (including religious life).

For full disclosure, I am a skeptic, secular humanist, and agnostic. But people can enjoy studying about religion and the psychology of religion, though they do not accept religious premises and beliefs.

Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out. Yet I still think that all religion goes back to some form of ancestor worship. If not a Heavenly Father in the Mormon/JudeoChristian sense, then at least as spirits or ghosts of departed individuals who, eventually, enter a nebulous pantheon of "Ancestors".

In any case, I'll research your reference.

Ancient ancestor worship is a fascinating idea. Your post reminded me of this article.

http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/turkey.html

"Schmidt has another theory about how Göbekli Tepe became a sacred place. Though he has yet to find them, he believes that the first stone circles on the hill of the navel marked graves of important people. Hauptmann's team discovered graves at Nevali Cori, and Schmidt is reasonably confident that burials lie somewhere in the earliest layers of Göbekli Tepe. This leads him to suspect the pillars represent human beings and that the cult practices at this site may initially have focused on some sort of ancestor worship."

I second your comments and will put "God is Not One" on my reading list. I would also recommend Darwin's Cathedral: Evolution, Religion, and the Nature of Society by David Sloan Wilson, which takes as its theme the evolution of religion as a form of group control that provides advantages for cooperation within groups and for competition against outside groups.

http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Cathedral-Evolution-Religion-Society/product-reviews/0226901351/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2011 11:26AM by robertb.

Hi Robert, and nice to meet you nebularry. Thank you for your kind responses.

My confession (so good for my soul) is that I recognize narrow minded views about religious orthodoxy (belief) and orthopraxy (practice) because that largely defines my views while I was a devout Mormon. The sun rose and set on everything related to Mormonism. Even the church sponsored course we used to teach in Institute about other religious traditions was still narrow in scope. It was all about how other religious beliefs and practices compared to Mormonism (mostly out of context), and in some twisted way, supported the church's claims.

AFter giving myself permission to take off the blindfold I was astounded by the refreshing and impressive variety of religious groups, beliefs and practices. My "definition" of religion exploded and disappeared. I'm not sure how to define religion anymore, if one takes into account the world's religions, philosophies, ideologies and ethics.

Thanks nebularry for a stimulating discussion. Thanks for your good will. Take care Robert!

Most people have the same general beliefs as their parents, grandparents and so on. They tend to resist (or even go to war against) religions that are not in their heritage.

That's so true. It is easy to see that if I were born in another nation, another culture another time, my view of the world (religious view included) would be radically different; because of what my family taught me to believe.

Worshiping the source of your existence = ancestor worship, tracing back to our original mother/father.

I think ALL religion is the result of death. Humans don't want to die, and they want to believe they will see their loved ones again. Ancient Chinese religions appear to have been created because of these things.

we came from - the source of our being and existence. Being linked in some way to our source.
Who or what was our first parent? Our source?
I think ALL religions are looking for this.

within a belief of a universal God. Unlike primitive tribal religions, Mormonism doesn't see itself as belonging exclusively to a god or gods that no other people belong to. However, there was a good deal of tension in early Mormonism between Brigham Young, who championed a very anthropomorphic god capable of individual improvement or "eternal progression" against Pratt's "eternal God" who was perfect and therefore not "progressing." Young won out temporarily (by belittling and threatening Pratt) but the modern Mormon Church swings more toward Pratt's universal, eternal God, although their remains tension between the two ways of conceiving God. One possible way of seeing Mormonism might be as a mixture of universalism and tribalism.

Another thought:

The familial and tribal imagery and language in Mormonism pushes a lot "loyalty buttons" I think are wired into us. Marketing experts push these buttons all the time to create a positive corporate image and to create loyalty in employees as well as customers.

Sorry, bad placement of my post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2011 04:49PM by robertb.

religions such as Mormonism are best classified as a tribe because of their generational heritage that is exclusive and specific just as all major religions of the world are based on the elements of the familial, social, tribe, complete with their traditions (rituals) around the main events in a human beings life: birth, coming of age, marriage and death.
The various religions of the world have, throughout history, defined the specific rituals of each religious heritage-tribe. It's common for each one to place great importance on those rituals as the only correct way to perform the traditions.

If the traditions/beliefs, etc. don't appeal to a member of the group/tribe, for any number of reasons, and leaving becomes necessary, it is often met with hostility as the customs/rituals of the religious tribe have been rejected which is seen as a betrayal, and the prior member could be seen as an enemy as we see in religious wars. Not all religions take such a strong stand as many LDS believers do, but to some degree, those that leave their heritage/religious tribe will be often have a lot of difficulty retaining any kind of cohesive relationship with the believers.

I often quote this statement as I have found through experience and observation that it is, indeed, very true.

"The individual has always had to struggle to resist the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

--Nietzsche

A fascinating observation that had not occured to me before. The Church is like a grand tribe with a headman or chief (president) who is also the shaman (prophet) at the top. Perhaps this is a rather loose analogy but one that seems appropriate. Thanks for the insight!

nebularry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A fascinating observation that had not occured to
> me before. The Church is like a grand tribe with a
> headman or chief (president) who is also the
> shaman (prophet) at the top. Perhaps this is a
> rather loose analogy but one that seems
> appropriate. Thanks for the insight!


In my research of how human beings organize themselves, the same pattern emerges every time which is the same whether it's a modern group of humans or a group in Africa: they organize in tribes by heritage and most often, specific religious beliefs - God Myths, and other types of myths.

The same kinds of things happen when an individual tries to leave the tribe: ostracism, credibility attacked, rejection, and on and on. In some groups, if the tribal norms are not adhered to there are "honor killings" and disfigurement, and other punishments.

I see it over and over in the problems people have leaving the LDS Church, not as severe, but the same attitudes - some more extreme than others. Those that leave are no longer acceptable in some manner.

Indeed, Mormonism is a "grand tribe" with the same type of leadership as any other tribe of human beings that are organized together by lineage-heritage.

I think you put it very well. I agree - totally.

For me this sheds a whole new light on the origins of LDS Inc. As a youth, what did Joseph Smith have going for him? Not much! His family was poor. He was a failed treasure hunter. He had been in trouble with the law. He was a dreamer and teller-of-tall-tales. But one thing everyone seems to agree on, he was charismatic.

So instead of trying to fit in with existing tribes (Methodists, Presbyterians, Freemasons, etc.), he set out to start his own tribe. He confabulated a fantastic story and with the help of some cohorts had it published into a book. He then set about making himself the headman and shaman of the tribe. He even incorporated ancestor worship as a main theme. The rest, as they say, is history!

WOW!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2011 02:55PM by nebularry.

nebularry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For me this sheds a whole new light on the origins
> of LDS Inc. As a youth, what did Joseph Smith have
> going for him? Not much! His family was poor. He
> was a failed treasure hunter. He had been in
> trouble with the law. He was a dreamer and
> teller-of-tall-tales. But one thing everyone seems
> to agree on, he was charismatic.
>
> So instead of trying to fit in with existing
> tribes (Methodists, Presbyterians, Freemasons,
> etc.), he set out to start his own tribe. He
> confabulated a fantastic story and with the help
> of some cohorts had it published into a book. He
> then set about making himself the headman and
> shaman of the tribe. He even incorporated ancestor
> worship as a main theme. The rest, as they say, is
> history!
>
> WOW!



Yes!! Now you see why I use the term: tribe to best describe how the LDS Church functions - especially today as the traditions and rituals have been established and imprinted over a couple of centuries.

The LDS even go so far as to affirm their belief in the member's lineage through the Patriarchal Blessing (another ritual) which continues the tribal distinction of Ephriam (most members) and Manasseh from the 10 Tribes of Israel. (That belief is part of their unique religious doctrine.)

And, Yes, Joseph Smith Jr did exactly what you outlined, not purposely, but naturally, as that is what human beings do!
They don't fit the norm, or are dissatisfied in some way, they hear a different beat, and their creativity, based on what they know, creates a whole group that if isolated and left to grow on it's own,( which is what happened with B. Young),becomes a highly insulated, well established generational, cultural, religious tribe with it's own set of unique boundaries, traditions, rituals (and DNA most likely), which are by necessity, outside and different from the realm of other groups/tribes as every tribe strives to be unique in some manner.
The result is Mormonism and it's claims/doctrines/dogma/teachings are a direct result of what Joseph Smith Jr knew and learned in his lifetime, and how he created a unique American God Myth that is alive and well today mainly, in my view, because of the strong element of tribalism.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2011 03:56PM by SusieQ#1.

All religion, especially the conservative sects, seems to believe that things used to be better. Some even extend that to believing that their beliefs are "restorations" of "true doctrine" (i.e., the mormons and baptists). So, yes, ancestor worship, but also misplaced nostalgia for an idealized past that never really existed. And a rejection of modernity for fundamentalists of all stripes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2011 03:56PM by helamonster.

. . . bowing, praying, clapping and chanting in front of their home "butsudan"--family shrines or altars built to honor their dead relatives, on which they placed bowls of "o-gohan" (honorable or sacred rice), and lit up their incense.

Never saw any of their dead relatives appear out of nowhere/somewhere to eat the rice but it was a cool ceremony to watch.

Mormons just secretly dress up like the Pillsbury dough boy wrapped in a figleaf apron and then slit their throats. Blech.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2011 06:03PM by steve benson.

+1