http://ldsmag.com/component/zine/article/8583?ac=1
"You are only as good as the people with whom you surround yourself. You can train them, motivate them, teach them, and work along side of them, but if they are not first class people you will not get first class results. I’d rather work with first class people with a second class idea, than second class people with a first class idea, because first class people will always upgrade their ideas until they, too, are first class."

Hanging out with prostitutes, publicans, tax collectors and wine drinkers! WOW.

I guess WWJD doesn't apply to leadership skills.

Well put. I have a scummy BIL who tells me this same shite, but I'm pretty sure he's building a first class Ponzi scheme.

The article in question reads like a motivational speech for bureaucrats. There's no question in my mind that the author's reference to "first class people" means grasping and ambitious type A persons. The rest of us don't cut it.

This is in a church magazine? Shows you what LDS (Let's Diss Someone) stands for.

hahahahahahahaha

Yeah, Jesus should have hung out with the Pharisees, Sadducees and the Romans.He should have played nice with Herod Antipas and Pilate. After all, they were the rich and powerful. Those poor and marginalized people he seemed to prefer had nothing to offer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2011 02:10AM by bona dea.

Too true..

If jesus had spent more time reading "how to make friends and influence people" instead of hanging out drinking wine and fasting in the desert he could have really been somebody...

What on earth was Jesus thinking?

He did build a corporation with billions of customers, that has lasted 2,000 years..

JB

Actually Paul gets a lot of the credit for that although Jesus was the inspiration.

who would be welcomed into the Kingdom of God. His reversing the usual social sensibilities incensed a lot of people.

This sounds like the mindless motivational tripe that gets passed out to the rank and file in a call center (unfortunately I would know). What the heck is a "first class" idea or person anyway? Stupid buzz-wordy nonsense. Why not make it "world class" while you're at it? What little message there is, isn't very nice.


O/T anecdote: My cubical once hosted a poster that read "The only way to discover the limits of the possible, is to go beyond them into the limits of the impossible." It only served to demoralize me by serving as a constant reminder that I was doing grunt work for morons.

And don't forget, one of those "first class people" surrounding Jesus betrayed him to the elite Roman and Jewish politicians of his day who, in turn, crucified him. Bad choice of picking friends, IMO.

Maybe that explains why the Prophet and Apostles don't want to be bothered by the members of the church. First class leaders can't be disturbed by second class peons.

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/60087/From-the-First-Presidency.html

Tell ya what, dude has no idea what's going on in the world of leadership.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I guess WWJD doesn't apply to leadership skills.

I guess patterning your own behavior after Jesus only applies to the poor and downtrodden.

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/61383/President-Monson-Other-Religious-Leaders-Share-Thoughts-on-911-Anniversary.html
"We can make Him the center of our thoughts and His Son, Jesus Christ, the pattern for our behavior."

With leaders like Monson and his right-hand "for profit" man Mark Willes, this article guides their behavior more than Jesus:
http://ldsmag.com/component/zine/article/8583?ac=1

"pat chatterley makes this comment

8 Key Principles of Leadership

Wednesday, 07 September 2011
I see the value in these principles and would like to use this article as a YSA lesson in the future. Our young people need these skills."

Yeah, make sure these Young Single Adults hang out with first class people and become machines of motivation to succeed in business. Great lesson idea!

I completely disagree. This is about leadership and people you WORK with, usually within a group or team.

When I'm at work, you had better BRING IT on the job and get it done right. You had better do a first-class job and deliver first-class results and come up with good ideas if you are working on my team, and I will do the same.

This quote and article is about leadership and results, not who to be your friend and whether they're poor or sinful or not (though we all know the church also suggests choosing "righteous" friends).

From the start of the article:
"Actually, I think leadership principles are universal, and I have tried (imperfectly) to apply them to my Church callings."

Yeah, all about WORK.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, all about WORK.

By "work with" I mean performing tasks within any responsibility...not just the work you do at your occupation.

Leadership principles ARE universal. If I operating in some capacity in a religious or volunteer organization, I would want to work with a chosen team of people who achieve results. If they don't, the group or organization suffers. This is a Fact.

Jesus (pretending he existed) chose tax collectors and fishermen not because they were tax collectors and fishermen, but because they had the skills and attributes necessary to achieve his desired outcomes (the results).

Again, this article is about leadership...getting results. Not who to be friends with or who is righteous. It looks to me like you're trying to find something to charge against the church with this article but it's not the case this time.

athreehourbore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, this article is about leadership...getting
> results. Not who to be friends with or who is
> righteous.

"In any enterprise – business, government, Church or commumity organization – it’s the people who are the critical factor. Leading is the only privilege of command. It’s not perks, not power, and not reward. It is the privilege of leading, and the reward of a job well done."

I'm not "the church" with "worthiness" interviews, requirements to serve[AKA lead] (written or not), abundant online training videos (look them up LDSTech.org can help) or a host of other "First-Class" corporate-inspired and corporate-funded ways to "Be like Jesus."

athreehourbore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It looks to me like you're trying to
> find something to charge against the church with
> this article but it's not the case this time.

Yes. And this is bad why?

Because false accusations are to be avoided in general?

As much as I hate the church, I just don't see what's in this article itself and quote about building a team of high talent that is hypocritical as you have described.

Now, the church's failure to follow effective leadership principles is another topic I'd be happy to help lambast them on!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2011 02:39PM by athreehourbore.

athreehourbore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because false accusations are to be avoided in
> general?

What is a "false accusation" here?

Please tell me. I would like to know where "the church" and "leadership" diverge in my unrighteousness in mixing Jesus with leadership and the morg.

My understanding of your point, in your first post, is that the principle of leadership quoted from the article is contradictory with what Jesus would do.

But it's NOT contradictory. As I pointed out, building a team of people that get results is not only good leadership as the article suggests, but Jesus did it, too---training, motivating, teaching, and working along side of first-class apostles from various walks of life.

So, you're essentially calling this article unchristlike or hypocritical, and it's not.

And that is why it is a false accusation of the article.

athreehourbore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My understanding of your point, in your first
> post, is that the principle of leadership quoted
> from the article is contradictory with what Jesus
> would do.

Yes.

> But it's NOT contradictory. As I pointed out,
> building a team of people that get results is not
> only good leadership as the article suggests, but
> Jesus did it, too---training, motivating,
> teaching, and working along side of first-class
> apostles from various walks of life.

First-class apostles? What? So Jesus hung out will all sorts of people and they all were "First-class" to you?

You can call me out saying I'm making a "false accusation" and then we use YOUR definitions of "First-class"???

> So, you're essentially calling this article
> unchristlike or hypocritical, and it's not.

Yes.

> And that is why it is a false accusation of the
> article.

What would Jesus do? He hung out with lots of classes of people including the "Pharisees" who were the people who, how did you put it?
"would want to work with a chosen team of people who achieve results."

Jesus, from what I understand, told people to "come follow me" and didn't organize them into what they wanted and asked him for - a hierarchy of (AKA Team) of people to achieve some "business" result.

I think you are grasping at straws with the business analogizing and so did the author in addressing a group of YSA gathered as a religious "team" of people? No a group of coreligionists looking for what? A business motivational devotional?

You have little ground to call me on the carpet about a thing - Mormonism to be specific - that you have called in other posts as more a business than a church - about it being more a business than a Christian Church!!!!

It's the leader-as-servant model.

The leader is always in charge and everyone knows it, but he acts as an example by lowering himself and serving those in his care. Washing feet, healing, feeding people.

You know, the way Tom Monson and the 12 and the 70's can be seen out among the little members, doing landscaping, working in the church welfare farms, cleaning buildings, driving old people to the doctor, stuff like that. Servant leadership.

OlMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know, the way Tom Monson and the 12 and the
> 70's can be seen out among the little members,
> doing landscaping, working in the church welfare
> farms, cleaning buildings, driving old people to
> the doctor, stuff like that. Servant leadership.

Yeah.

"Leading is the only privilege of command. It’s not perks, not power, and not reward."

That is what LDS leadership at the prophet level is all about.

It can be learned, but it cannot be taught. It is far more art than science, and since it deals with humans, no hard and fast rules can be applied to it.

I don't have a problem when he is talking about "first-class people" in this context. The Marine Corp talks this way, from what I gather. I read it as meaning people who are highly trained, highly motivated, and who work well together to accomplish a particular mission rather than intrinsic value as a person.

For example, I would certainly want the qualities in a surgeon and surgical team. I might what some other mixes of qualities for some other job.

You would want to change the model/language somewhat if you were ministering to people. A number of posters note the language is out of place for a church context--but, then again, the Mormon Church is more corporation than church. And there are also other leadership/management models for corporations.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2011 09:18PM by robertb.

robertb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For example, I would certainly want the qualities
> in a surgeon and surgical team.

I could care less about leadership in a specialist doing their thing. Motivating people to do their job on a team I can understand. Now a "healer" like Jesus, he needed leadership or just people to recognize their "God"? Did he need to motivate people to "heal" in his name?

Interesting. I wonder if "healing" requires "First-class" people to do it?

LOL!

Do your thing, let others do their thing.

If you happen to meet up and make beautiful music, wonderful, if not, play your solos.

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