I'm going to post a video one more time, but please read my entire post before watching or commenting.
A little bout me, bullet point style:
-married to TBM
-raised Catholic, have 7 bro/sis, non attend or believe.
-have stepson TBM served mission (Tokyo, Japan)
-wife BIC has 4 bro/sis all TBM.
-she was married once before to a nevermo alcoholic.

We had a argument recently about the Church.
One thing she said was (paraphrase) "no one has left the church with a legitimate reason, the people you find on the internet are angry, lazy,not happy, worst off etc....."
She doesn't believe anyone can have a legitimate reason to leave.(of course if you are a TBM there can't be).
That's why the video i'm posting below and why I think it is so powerful.
Not their beliefs now, but how it flies in the face at what my wife (and most mormons )said.
Not the message of the video!
So please don't make comments like "same old crap different toilet",
that is NOT THE POINT!
Please watch with mormon goggles on (or beer goggles).
with the question in mind
-how would a TBM react to the video?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl0c5nl6u48&feature=player_embedded

Sorry, I lost my Mormon goggles, but I did watch with my atheist eyes--and would you believe I watched the whole thing?

Some things that struck me:
- That familiar, glassy-eyed, brainwashed look
- How the stars of the video all clustered together and reinforced one another's thinking
- How they all seemed to just really, really need something, ever so badly
- How, except for the one guy who said he was an atheist/agnostic for a few days, they apparently never questioned the existence of God or his way of communicating through a convoluted, boring book or his way of showing his love--for his son, for example. Hello! *irony*

And having to give up everything, including your family, for Jesus is different from and better than Mormonism ... how?

Munchybotaz,
"sorry I lost my Mormon goggles......"
ha ha lol
You couldn't help give me a "same old crap different toilet" answer!
Find those damn ugly blurry vision glasses! No rational clear thinkers please!
Big red F for you! lol

because your wife is going to say the people in the video couldn't hack it as Mormons and took an easier road.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2011 07:46PM by munchybotaz.

Munchybotaz wrote:

"cause your wife is going to say the people in the video couldn't hack it as Mormons and took an easier road."


You did it! (mormon goggle answer)

At conference they always seem to say something to the effect
"Heavenly Father knows where to send His missionaries"

Question to ask TBM: "Why did he send these missionaries to Florida?"

I think it's a harder question to answer then when a missionary
dies on his/her mission.

(they say "It was his/her time to go, they are on a mission in the CK" or something like that.)

and now I have to work. I assume it is a testimony of some other religion that they have moved onto.

BUT from a mormon's eyes--I have just had a lengthy debate with a long-time mormon friend through e-mail the past 3 days. They don't want to HEAR ANYTHING. It won't matter how persuasive you can be--they don't want to hear it UNTIL they are ready and if you try to force it on them, they will put up bigger walls.

My feeling is they live in fear. It took years for me to even consider I didn't believe and I'd been through some pretty terrible stuff. I had to go inactive to get the programming out of my head and it took about 9 years of inactivity before I was willing to admit that I had issues.

If you show anyone who is devout mormon something like this video--they will put their hands over their ears and say, "I don't want to hear it. It has to be true." (My TBM daughter even did this one day when I was just trying to tell her I loved her, but she thought I was going to say something about the church.) My daughter wasn't even mormon for 10 years--and she doesn't want to hear ANYTHING.

cl2 (not logged in) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My feeling is they live in fear. It took years for
> me to even consider I didn't believe and I'd been
> through some pretty terrible stuff. I had to go
> inactive to get the programming out of my head and
> it took about 9 years of inactivity before I was
> willing to admit that I had issues.

I'm a horrible example of this, myself. I knew in my heart that I didn't believe for a couple of years, but my whole life was based on it, and I had a few shreds of belief left, so I kept trying. The poor behavior of judgmental members had shot my self-esteem to hell, so I had no confidence to build a life without having it handed to me. I think a lot of members are in the same shoes I was. They see one thing, and another thing, and they realize that there are fatal flaws in the whole system, but they put up a front because their whole lives are made of the church. Even then they paper over the holes and don't want to hear anything bad about the church because they'd rather not admit that the whole thing is even more flawed than they thought they had to live with.

Don't chat religion.

isn't it apparent that religious beliefs/opinions DIDN't bring you together? Ya think that's gonna change?

thoughtfully suggest to her that religious discussions can't go Anywhere with the two of you, EVEN if she finds something about Mormonism and/or ChurchCo disturbs her!

Focus on Kindness, trust-respect in the relationship and how to develop them; about Honesty, charity, etc.

IF you 'must' talk abt religion, i suggest these messages:

http://lds.org/ensign/1992/05/the-tongue-can-be-a-sharp-sword?lang=eng

We need to get back to basic principles of recognizing the good and the praiseworthy within the family. Home evening needs to be reemphasized and used as a tool or foundation for wholesome communication and teaching, but never as an opportunity to bash other family members, neighbors, teachers, or Church leaders. Family loyalty will emerge when we reinforce the good and the positive and bridle our negative thoughts as we seek after those things that are of good report.

There will always be those in the days ahead who will be inclined to bash ourselves and others, but we cannot allow a heavy, crushing blow to destroy us or to deter our personal or church progress.

Bernard Baruch, an adviser to six United States presidents, was once asked whether he was ever disturbed by attacks from enemies. He said, “No man can humiliate or disturb me. I won’t let him.”

We are reminded that Jesus Christ, the only perfect person to ever walk the earth, taught us through quiet example to say nothing or to be silent in stressful times in our lives rather than to spend time and energy bashing for whatever purpose.

So what is the antidote for this bashing that hurts feelings, demeans others, destroys relationships, and harms self-esteem? Bashing should be replaced with charity. Moroni described it this way:

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all. …

“Charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever.” (Moro. 7:46–47.)

Charity is, perhaps, in many ways a misunderstood word. We often equate charity with visiting the sick, taking in casseroles to those in need, or sharing our excess with those who are less fortunate. But really, true charity is much, much more.

Real charity is not something you give away; it is something that you acquire and make a part of yourself. And when the virtue of charity becomes implanted in your heart, you are never the same again. It makes the thought of being a basher repulsive.

Perhaps the greatest charity comes when we are kind to each other, when we don’t judge or categorize someone else, when we simply give each other the benefit of the doubt or remain quiet. Charity is accepting someone’s differences, weaknesses, and shortcomings; having patience with someone who has let us down; or resisting the impulse to become offended when someone doesn’t handle something the way we might have hoped. Charity is refusing to take advantage of another’s weakness and being willing to forgive someone who has hurt us. Charity is expecting the best of each other.

None of us need one more person bashing or pointing out where we have failed or fallen short. Most of us are already well aware of the areas in which we are weak. What each of us does need is family, friends, employers, and brothers and sisters who support us, who have the patience to teach us, who believe in us, and who believe we’re trying to do the best we can, in spite of our weaknesses. What ever happened to giving each other the benefit of the doubt? What ever happened to hoping that another person would succeed or achieve? What ever happened to rooting for each other?



and:



http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/january/15.58.html

Our Savior, Jesus, forgave his unrepentant enemies from the Cross and taught us to pray, "Forgive us our debts as we have forgiven our debtors." While we cannot pardon others' sin as God does through Christ's death, we are called to forgive.

What then is forgiveness? Smedes, who was a professor of theology and ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary, defined forgiveness as an inner response to evil that (when possible) finds fulfillment in outward reconciliation.


Mormonism ISN'T about Christianity.. it Isn't Even about religion; it's about substituting a set of Rules & Regulations For Those...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2011 06:12PM by guynoirprivateeye.

guynoirprivateeye,
I should take your advice and let it be, but I can't.
I remember reading something from a marriage councilor about what
marriage is most likely to fail:
A)One that never fights or
B)One that has a occasional fight
the answer is A
They lost passion.

the video as not of much value to them. It doesn't validate what they believe so they would not see the point in even watching it.

They will possibly think it's just preaching that has nothing to do with their religion.

Strong LDS believers on the whole, have no interest in anything else. They may see the video as a ploy of Satan to cause them to waiver.

Specific religions with their unique beliefs tend to be extremely territorial and in the "right" while everyone else is in the "wrong" and needs to "see the light" - which means believe what they do.

If you are thinking of showing that video to your family that are believing LDS folks, I'd say, drop it. It will back fire most likely. They will think you're a little "off" and need to be fixed.

That is what religion does best - fix ya!

If you want things to progress, ditch the video, it's of no value to the LDS believers and it will change their feelings for you probably permanently.

Why not just accept that people have different beliefs, and that is about them, not you and let it go?
How about making religion a non-issue?
I can only speak from my own experience, I know those kinds of positions, and attitudes are very powerful and very useful and helpful.

Thanks for the comments so far!
SusieQ,
My wife and stepson don't accept me for my non belief.
The sister missionaries are coming to dinner (we do the last Sunday of every month).
I usually don't bring up religion unless they say "I wan't you to watch a video" or push something on me.
Serious questions: aren't I allowed to voice an honest opinion
of why I don't believe?
Doesn't this website prove people can change?
Doesn't the video prove people can change?

HusbandofTBM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the comments so far!
> SusieQ,
> My wife and stepson don't accept me for my non
> belief.
> The sister missionaries are coming to dinner (we
> do the last Sunday of every month).
> I usually don't bring up religion unless they say
> "I wan't you to watch a video" or push something
> on me.
> Serious questions: aren't I allowed to voice an
> honest opinion
> of why I don't believe?
> Doesn't this website prove people can change?
> Doesn't the video prove people can change?


This is my position: leave it alone. They know your opinion. If you don't want to watch their videos, or join them for dinner with LDS folks, then don't. Otherwise, be cordial, and polite. Nothing more is needed.

The smart thing, in my view, is to know when to voice an opinion. In this case, you know it's not needed or wanted and you are very likely digging a deeper hole for yourself.

The more you dig at their beliefs, the less they will be accepting. Just a hunch.

Right now, you have a family -- intact, with some differences of opinion. If you want to share you different opinion with your wife, I think you will need to do it extremely carefully, and very, very, very slowly.

Forget any expectation that anyone will change. If it happens, it happens. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

OK..that's it from me. Stick a fork in me, I'm done! :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2011 07:31PM by SusieQ#1.

With my Mormon goggles on:

Second 0: Hmm, that description of the video...eight former Mormons? That's bad.
Second 15: He's wearing a cross! Oh, crap. *close window*.

I would call the video well-meaning but futile; the main difference between my reaction and a TBM's is that they're supposed to close the window as soon as they read the description. Few Mormons have any interest in listening to or understanding former members regarding why they left. Any discussions of the matter that I participated in started with the assumption that former members had made a mistake, and proceeded from there.

Anonymous wrote:


"I would call the video well-meaning but futile; the main difference between my reaction and a TBM's is that they're supposed to close the window as soon as they read the description. Few Mormons have any interest in listening to or understanding former members regarding why they left. Any discussions of the matter that I participated in started with the assumption that former members had made a mistake, and proceeded from there."

The video is well thought out and seems to make it hard for a TBM to argue "former members made a mistake, and proceeded from there." IMHO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdMuU9SV7ZE&feature=related

A (current) TR holder, PH, frmr bishop

guynoirprivateeye,

Finally got a chance to watch the video you posted.
Sure is clear as day the problems and inconsistencies.
How can anyone not see them?

These people are wrong, and the TBMs are right.

They have misunderstood/mistranslated the bible.

They have left the "fullness" of the gospel to only have a "part" now.


Yes, it flies in the face that people only leave to "sin" or are angry or offended.

But, Mormons are great at compartmentalizing. Just because you may win this ONE point, gets you no where.

Just answering your question.

Raptor Jesus,
Thanks for the honest reply, even though it doesn't give me much hope.
Isn't there anyone out there that had a similar to mine and won the war? (got a TDM spouse to leave the church),

However, you can bring up your concerns in as non-confrontational manner as you can.

But there are NO guarantees.

No formula that will work for sure.

I haven't watched the video yet, but I can tell you what my TBM relatives would say, "Those people are misguided and do not really understand the church or they wouldn't have left Any scriptures that undermine LDS teachings are mistranslated or were added later." If she seems interested it can't hurt and could plant some seeds, but I doubt it will have much effect.If she is resistant, I wouldn't push the issue.

bona dea,
please watch and report back.
you wrote "if she seems interested it can't hurt and could plant some seeds....."
Finally some hope!

Gotta go to band practice.

discussing religion with a TBM spouse is a Mine Field;

as R.Jesus says, 'they're ALWAYS right'. i.e. their training/indoctrination in ChurchCo doesn't allow them the possibility that they've made Any mistakes.

DON'T DISCUSS RELIGION!

I swear a lot of the mormon women I know hang onto the faith longer because they bought into all this bull about how they are emotional and spiritual rather than logical and thoughtful (like men). There are really strict gender roles prescribed for men and women by the church, and part of being a feminine woman is not questioning what authority figures say. Going with your feelings and doing whats "best for the family" is a big part of that, too. The programming might go too deep to sway her by way of argument.

I snapped out of that kind of programming long ago, but I can't really describe what it was like to live like that. You did what you thought you were *supposed* to be doing all that time, it was the main concern. Arguing doesn't do much for that. My advice to you is to empower her to make her own decisions and use her own mind when she tries to look to you (as a man) for something she could do herself. Listening to her opinions with respect and asking questions is something she probably doesn't get a lot of at the church, either.

This may not apply to you at all, I am just giving advice in case it does. I can see it as a roadblock for you in having a constructive discussion with a woman deep into TSCC.

When you live with someone with a very different point of view on certain topics, a few stock phrases come in handy -- "I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion" or "We'll have to agree to disagree on that one."

You're not going to change her mind, and she's not going to change yours.

Is there anyone out there that can show this video to a TBM and report back?
I ask only if you are in a position that will not cause distress.
Example: you've told your parents already you no longer believe in the LDS church.
Everyone here seams to say it won't change their mind, but I still would like to know what exactly they say after watching.
Not speculation but an actual viewing and report.

Have you seen John Dehlins presentation entitled:

'Why People Leave the LDS Church ( Mormon )'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs

I don't know what can help except to say tread lightly.

I was once an amazing incredible person and a privilage to know etc according to one of my missionaries when I was investigating the church but once I started asking the questions and sharing some facts about the church/history which concerned me I was asked to stop communicating!

I would never have believed it. I actually thought she was eventually going to say a Big Thank You for helping me escape a lying cult!

One thing is certain she did not know anything about a head in hat/garden stone translation(amongst many other things)and even told me that her BYU graduate friend never heard that either!?!?!?

I got a sense that those things I revealed (though true) scared her and she even said once that if the church is not true then her life is destroyed.

Wow.Scary stuff!

She is around 40 years of age now and joined at age 19 I think, served the cult mission aged 35 at the time and knew very little/nothing of the real historical events and facts.

She was unfortunately conned out of her life savings by someone she TRUSTED very much and fellow members/church etc funded her mission as a result.

I'm certain the con artist was her Branch President as she was evasive when I asked if the person who conned her was a LDS member and later she inadvertently told me her Branch President was in Jail for stealing members tithes and stuff.

I just put 2 and 2 together.

zeezrom,
yes I did show her the John Dehlin video a couple years ago.
(I don't think she made it through to the end)
She said something like "talk to the Bishop if you have concerns,not me, I'm not that scholarly".

As a side note, I ask like everyone else here,"how is John Dehlin still Mormon?"

Mormon response. Fingers in ears LA LA LA.