Many of us have observed that the LDS Church is not keeping it's members, both the staunch generational believers, and those less active members.

There are many reasons why the LDS Church is apparently not growing, of course.

Stats from the annual reports seem to show the LDS Church at a standstill. (Someone have those available?)

One reason I believe the LDS Church is not growing:LDS missionaries cannot answer investigators questions.


This is the instruction they are given:
Preach My Gospel

NOTE: this is a change from prior teaching instruction.

Look at Chapter 3 and see how limited it is, and why they cannot answer many of the investigators questions.

http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,8057-1-4424-1,00.html

Click on any of the teaching chapters and that will explain what they are authorized to teach and why, in my view, they are not very successful getting thousands of new converts.


From my own personal experience as a convert, in the 60's when they used the flannel cutouts etc, and wore hats:-).... I find that this is no more effective in showing a person what they are really getting into than when I joined.

It's my view that people today, when changing churches/religions, want more information. And they will get it, particularly on the Internet where it is so readily available.

It's my conclusion that the LDS Church is not going to grow in leaps and bounds with lots of converts as they did at one time as they are not directing their efforts to meet the needs of people today.

The lessons are fine for the members, preaching to the choir, as they say, but I don't think they do much to gain new converts.

Am I on the target here? Or not?

Its probably a big part of it. When I went on my mission in the 90's it seemed the only people that were interested in the church were in it for the social aspect. Those who desired any kind of in depth understanding of religion did not get baptized. I felt wholly inadequate as a missionary because I felt like I didn't know the scriptures at all, especially the Bible. The missionaries only know certain key scriptures or bullet points of their converting program but once you take them off their script, they are really clueless.

You are making my point, Ex-CultMember! I think the whole missionary program is about 95% a disaster all the way around. The costs don't outweigh the benefits.

a) the costs are paid by... the members

b) Benefits: CEMENT the missionary to ChurchCo

I agree that the missionary program is all about cementing the missionaries to the church.

I think that the rejection the missionaries receive from 99% of the people they talk to is an important, and calculated, part of the program. Rejection by non-Mormons helps to bind the missionaries to the tribe.

What the GAs may fear most are the people who are kind and welcoming without falling for the sales pitch. These are the ones who can demonstrate that it is possible to be a good person without being Mormon, and thus shake the missionaries' testimonies. This is probably why the missionaries are encouraged to not "waste time" with people who don't seem to be receptive to the sales pitch.

Younger people will look it up on the internet, absolutely. People probably do it on their phones while the missionaries are talking to them. It must be incredibly hard to refute when you can call up any information in seconds.

skeptifem Wrote:
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> Younger people will look it up on the internet,
> absolutely. People probably do it on their phones
> while the missionaries are talking to them. It
> must be incredibly hard to refute when you can
> call up any information in seconds.


YES!! It reminds me of the old joke: going to a battle of wits, unarmed! The missionaries are kept at a disadvantage, yet demanded to produce. ARGH.....!!!

I have always said...the internet is the kiss of death to the mormons...

No Mormon missionary has ever come to my (formerly Catholic, now UU) door, but, should one ever show up, I hope and pray I have the presence of mind to bring up these topics:
1. Spaulding manuscript
2. Kinderhook plates
3. Mark Hoffman

I bet you my next paycheck these poor kids would have no idea what I'm talking about. (Let's put aside the fact that it's astoundingly presumptuous of a 19-year-old kid to think he has the ability to present The Truth to a woman old enough to be his grandmother.)

It's not like they are part of the missionary discussions, and the information about the history of LDS Inc, or the science invalidating the BoM/BoA were not readily available. And the prophet, seer and revelator had yet to be openly bamboozled by Mark Hofmann.

Now, all of that is readily available via the internet. Now people can know about the stuff the mishies don't tell them.

People always joined for the social aspects of the church. When a new member faltered, the solution was always to "fellowship" the new member, not to get them to read the BoM more and pray more about it. The GAs knew it was the social hooks that kept people in, not the doctrine.

The reason a person had to be a member at least a year getting their "endowments" was to make sure the social hook was set firmly enough so they could survive the spiritual cold shower that is the endowment, without bolting for the exit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2011 06:41PM by Brother Of Jerry.

southern idaho inactive Wrote:
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> maybe the morg should give them smart phones to
> counter this information at people's fingertips!!
> LOL!!


GOOD ONE!! I was thinking the same thing!! LOL

based on feelings REGARDLESS of the information.

They need to change that strategy--it is not working.

Maybe they can hire Mitt Romney as a consultant. He can sell off their assets, retire the elderly and hire a dynamic new leader--himself! Then he can have the necessary revelations which will bring God back in line with modern society...


Anagrammy

anagrammy Wrote:
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> based on feelings REGARDLESS of the information.
>
>
YES! And the problem is: investigators want validated information and facts, and are not so easily swayed by feelings alone.

That's probably one of the reasons I didn't fall. I'm a thinker, not a feeler, by nature. There was no emotional high for me during any of my investigation.

It's not "can't answer the investigators' questions." It's "will not answer investigators' questions." For the LDS church, allowing the members and investigators to gain full access and to make decisions for themselves is dangerous and hard.

I had a long email conversation with an active LDS friend who is infuriated the church isn't upfront with either BIC members or converts and doesn't blame people for leaving when they find out they've been dealt with dishonestly.

I think the church would do much better morally to be honest and to let people take their time in converting if they were going to. As it is, the church is creating its own bad reputation, which it then tries to fix by more PR spin, which people, of course, see through.

I guess, though, they would see a big drop off in revenue. I mean, how much does the church make if it can convert people and keep even half of them them for a couple of tithe-paying years before they go inactive? Or perhaps the 25% they manage to retain makes it worth it. I've got to think someone is crunching the numbers and figuring the income is worth the cost.

When Joseph Smith burned out an area, he upped and moved the church, revamped some teachings, and sought out converts who weren't as familiar with his reputation. The church today does a similar thing through its PR efforts.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2011 05:40PM by robertb.

because they are in denial of some basic facts which we here as exmormons see quite clearly.

For example, the idea that a different PR firm, or two additional PR firms working together can rebrand Mormonism is ridiculous when they have removed all the ingredients and warnings from the label of the product. Now it's just a blank box saying "Christian-like Religion." As if more deniability made it more attractive???

Also, the management doesn't seem to learn from experience. The new PR push is designed to stimulate the viewers to want to know more about Mormonism (this from their own mormon website). Yes, that's true maybe BUT as soon as they go get that additional information, their belief that Mormonism is weird is confirmed.

It would be far smarter to overhaul the church with a huge modern day revelation where someone claims an Angel appeared to him and told him the Book of Mormon was like unto a parable, and that the Doctrine and Covenants was being replaced by the King James Bible and the CHI and all other books were considered to be devotional aids in developing a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

They could call it the 2012 Latter Day Mormon Reorganization and could be announced at the site of the Mountain Meadows Massacre shortly after the apology and the gift of the site to the Fancher-Baker descendants, together with enough money for an interpretation center.

Yep--they could fix the problem and they wouldn't need a PR firm at all.



Anagrammy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2011 02:05AM by anagrammy.

anagrammy Wrote:

> It would be far smarter to overhaul the church
> with a huge modern day revelation where someone
> claims an Angel appeared to him and told him the
> Book of Mormon was like unto a parable, and that
> the Doctrine and Covenants was being replaced by
> the King James Bible and the CHI and all other
> books were considered to be devotional aids in
> developing a personal relationship with Jesus
> Christ.

I am far less ambitious in my thoughts. I don't care if the Mormon Church keeps its Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, or the Pearl of Great Price. I would like that the issues attached to them and church history be openly discussed.

I would like there to be equal participation ecclesiastically and political issues be discussed and not simply dictated from the top. I don't want the Mormon Church to erase its unique features and become another Bible-based church. I want it to engage in honest discussion within and without. I don't think that will happen, though, because at this point it exists primarily to make money. Any good it does is a by-product.

As a corporate enterprise, the church is very poorly designed:

The senior management is made up entirely -- ENTIRELY -- of geriatric males who have grown up within the Mormon culture bubble. It could hardly be more out of touch with young people, women, and anyone outside the bubble.

The product that the corporation is selling is terrible. Its worst flaw is that it is inherently impossible to identify problems and fix them because all previous decisions must be acknowledged as having been divinely inspired. Consequently, the only possible growth strategy is to make the product appear as generic as possible and then try to club people into buying it through incessant advertising.

Since its growth strategy can't work, management's customer focus is centered on retaining its current base. But this is also impossible: People die, normal attrition occurs, and cultural-familial blackmail becomes more difficult as the church becomes more integrated with the larger society.

In the long run, the church has to contract in membership. It will probably be increasingly focused on the management of its economic assets, which are considerable.

I didnt know about mark Hoffman...just googled it and now I'm pissed off that my broke family pays tithing so the church can pay off criminals. It makes me sick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2011 03:12AM by americangirl406.

Since the religion is a hoax, the missionaries are trained to skirt around the real questions, and "answer only the question the person SHOULD have asked."

My nephew just got out of the MTC, and he said that the emphasis is on fellowshipping, and trying to form a relationship with each contact. He was surprised at how little time was spend practicing lesson plans. The training was geared on how to convince people of the missionary's OWN testimony. They learned how to act sincere, and gain intimacy (without being physical) and show sympathy, and act loving and kind. Saturdays were not spent in scripture study with investigators--the missionaries went out and did yard work, to gain the investigators' indebtedness.

I think TSCC's approach is to ignore the truth altogether, and to brainwash and hypnotize people into those warm fuzzy moments of group hysteria.

After all, the MAIN goal TSCC has for all its missionaries, is to even more deeply entrench them in the cult, along with the parents who send them, their siblings who are taught this is a good example, and their future temple wife, and all their children to be BIC.

We ex-Mormons think we have TSCC cowering in their boots, whenever we discover yet another of their lies--but I don't think they care! They just tighten their grasp on our loved ones, and threaten and bully them, if necessary. This cult does not play fair. Their goal is emotional manipulation, and "the family" is their greatest weapon.

The fact that people are trusting themselves more, and learning more information instantly on the internet, makes them harder to fool.

forestpal Wrote:
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>

ahh..ya.... ! :-) They have a program they think works, and refuse to look at how it is failing. Oh well. Their mess to fix. Not mine!

My question, that I didn't find the answer to, (probably needs more research) is who makes up those numbers of increase, which is very small actually.
It seems to me, I'm speculating, that the numbers could easily be accounted for by children of members' baptisms.
That is an expected growth.

I do know it is not growing in the area I live in. The stake was combined, and several wards were combined.

What I want to know, also, if any of those numbers of grown are converts, what is the rate they are staying past a year?

I think it's extremely low.

I do not have specific numbers to back up my estimates, just what I have experienced myself and heard from others


I would like to know, how many converts the missionaries have total in the last year, for instance, and how many are still attending a year later. That has been a serious problem all the many decades I was an active believing member.

of if the growth is internal (children/family members baptized) or new converts, and if they are converts, do they stay over a year?

I wish I could find the stats that were put out by the LDS Church in their annual reports, as those have been analyzed by people with better statistical skills than I and it shows a leveling off over the past 15 years or so of growth.