I'm currently in the middle of a discussion with my TBM aunt who claims that

"The Church doesn't ever say it (that the last days are upon us)--they always say "no man knoweth the day or the time" some members say it or speculate but it never comes from the Prophet that way."

I would like to rebut this with quotes from Joseph Smith (who I think said christ would return in 56 years or something?) and any other prophets (especially more recent ones) who have referred to the second coming happening soon. Particularly if anyone has talked about this being the "chosen generation" who will witness christ's return (which is how this whole discussion with her started".

Can any of you who are more scholarly/have better memory than myself help me out? Either give me quotes or links?

Thank ye kindly!

How about the Tenth Article of Faith -

"We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory."

Also the Times and Seasons Newspaper from Nauvoo. Joseph Smith republished a letter he had sent to a Rochester Newspaper. See if this has some of what you are looking for:

http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v5n21.htm
(scroll down for page 706)

"And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away, before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquakes will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country."

"Repent ye, repent ye, and embrace the everlasting covenant, and flee to Zion before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken, fulfilled."

Where was the pestilence? The earthquakes? Where are the lost tribes? People living on the earth and in Nauvoo in 1844 have all died without seeing the lost tribes. How about that 10th article of faith?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2011 08:32PM by Hoggle.

Very interesting. I had not read that before. Thanks!

While looking around for some quotes I happened upon the Shields website (which I hadn't been on before). This statement blew my mind:

"Prophets are allowed not only to have personal opinions, or even misunderstandings, but also to express them. It is up to those who hear the words spoken by a prophet to listen carefully, use their intelligence, and discern with the spirit whether a prophet is acting as a prophet or expressing his own views.2 Critics of the LDS faith demonstrate time and again that they do not comprehend this simple principle." http://www.shields-research.org/General/LDS_Leaders/1stPres/Joseph_Smith/56_Year.htm

I have heard this before, but never from an "official" source and spelled out like this. WTH?? So we just have to guess and hope our discerning spirit (always reliable) and intelligence (oh, we actually have permission to use that?) can tell us whether or not the prophet is prophesying or just speculating?

Seems to me that messages from god would be so important, and so necessary to get right, that we'd be given CLEAR indication that something was from god or just some dude's opinion.

Otherwise...what's the point of even having a prophet? The church is such a mind @#$#.

You can still read these words from Joseph Smith in the History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182 (7 Volume set, B.H. Roberts)

http://books.google.com/books?id=-XLZAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA182&dq=The+coming+of+the+Lord,+which+is+nigh+-+even+fifty-six+years+should+wind+up+the+scene+intitle:history+intitle:church&hl=en&ei=1nCKTrz-EaLg0QGH7NmDBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20coming%20of%20the%20Lord%2C%20which%20is%20nigh%20-%20even%20fifty-six%20years%20should%20wind%20up%20the%20scene%20intitle%3Ahistory%20intitle%3Achurch&f=false

"the coming of the Lord, which was nigh - even fifty-six years should wind up the scene."

The volumes are still sold at Deseret Book

http://deseretbook.com/Comprehensive-History-Church-Jesus-Christ-Latter-day-Saints-vol-2-B-H-Roberts/i/b488

The Shields site talks it down and there is sound argument that it was opinion and not revelation. But look at the letter from the Times and Seasons. It gives a good overview of what Joseph Smith thought. And like other posters have commented, the name of the Church anticipates the return of Jesus.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2011 11:16PM by Hoggle.

My TBM brother has made the decision that everytime Ezra T Benson said something right-wing and political, that he was speaking as a man, even if it was at general conference.

Note that the burden of discernment has been placed on the back of the individual member. A GA can be a loose cannon, but a regular member is expected to filter a barrage of useless information, picking out tid-bits of wisdom (if any).

The end of the world is built right into the church's official name. How are we to ignore that? Does the logo on the side of the cinder block building speak as a man?

You get old Mormons who try to tell you that there never were any bloody oaths in the temple ceremony.

Then you get old Mormons who try to tell you that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy and, if he did, he did it without sex.

Now you get old Mormons telling us that their leaders never said that these were the last days. Well, I've got a clue for them.

The name of their freakin' church is...drumroll~roll~roll~roll....you guessed it: The Church of Jesus Christ of LATTER-DAY SAINTS. Are they now going to argue about what "latter" means? In many languages it has even been translated, officially, by the church as "last days."

It should be renamed as The Church of Denial of the Horribly Confused People Suffering from Dementia and All-around Memory Loss.

To the top, because there's got to be TONS of these quotes from GA's including recent ones.