To MJ: Sorry if I offended. I am trying to learn.

I am a gay-friendly supporter and do not know anything about the subject other than what I've read here. Thanks for the link. I obviously need to read more. I continue to be absolutely astonished at the pretzel of so-called doctrine they peddled to me, let alone the "guidance" they provide to members who are gay.

Just to clarify--because this just blows me away--can I ask? Are you saying that the church commonly tells individual gay (non-bi) members that if they pray, God will make them attracted to one opposite sex individual for the purpose of procreation?

I am most respectfully asking any SSA members/former members if this is common on-the-street teaching from the church, like telling young women to marry a returned missionary.

Anagrammy

I grew up gay and mormon and yes, that is essentially what the church teaches. I don't know if anyone anymore will stick out their neck and say it, but that's the way the church works.

God's plan is for everyone to get married in the temple, have children, and live forever together as a family.

Since God is obviously right, if someone doesn't want to marry a member of the opposite sex and have kids, they are the ones with the problem. You need to fast and pray, read the scriptures, attend your meetings, etc. etc., until you realize that you are the one with the problem and that "God's Plan" is the correct course of action.

I tried and tried for years to "pray away the gay" and guess what - IT DIDN'T WORK. After my third suicide attempt I finally realized that I wasn't the one with the problem. The church is wrong, and God likes me just fine the way I am.

Even worse, many are encouraged / coerced into heterosexual marriage.

In my case I had faith in administration, I had faith in two of my brothers whom I asked to administer to me, I prayed, I fasted and I had already been married. It didn't work. How can god heal something that is not an illness? That is why the church's approach will always fail.

The fall out? Broken marriages. Children suffering though not only the divorce but finding new ways of relating to parents. Suicides. The have faith approach is part of the "double bind". Obviously there is a fault in you. If your faith is not strong enough to be healed it is your fault. Excuse Me!

After my mission, and before I got married, I "confessed" my attraction to men to 3 different bishops. Without exception, each one told me that if I would stay active, pray and seek counsel from my church leaders, I could "overcome" being gay.

One told me that it might take my whole life, but that it would be worth it.

I believed them and tried really hard. I even dated girls and fell in love (I thought) with one, and I married her.

What a tragedy on so many levels!

I believed the lies the LDS leaders told me.
I decided to leave my gay life & feelings behind me. One of the bishops told me to not tell anyone about it. So I didn't tell my fiancee.
My decision to marry led to heartache for my ex-wife, my children, my extended family, and me.

Yes, we're ok now, since we "woke up" to the reality of who I am, and now we're getting along fine.

But for those who are considering believing the lies of the LDS church, PLEASE reconsider.

There is no truth in what they say. You have to chart your own course, and IMO, it should be based on who you really are. Not who they think you should be.

I was told that God would make it all right if I just went ahead and got married. As long as I lived the gospel I would be able to have a healthy happy relationship with a wife--early 70's. This of course is counsel from bishops who don't have a clue what it is really all about. I was also at BYU during the time the shock treatments were given.

If you read in the Miracle of Forgiveness chapter entitled
Crime Against Nature you will see that according to Spencer W. that if you try really hard you can conquer your homosexuality in just a few short months. He does concede that some individuals may take a tad longer, but the implication is that anyone can do it.

And if you haven't been able to conquer it, he makes it clear in no uncertain terms that it is your fault for not trying hard enough. The wordage is severe.

That chapter got a hell of a lot of gay guys I knew to grab some gal pal (notice I don't say sweetheart?) and rush to the temple.
For most it was pure emotional carnage, on both sides. Some of course managed some kind of marriage with boys on the side.

I was very lucky that reading that chapter had the opposite effect on me. It was my ticket out of the church. I got the long version if you ever want it.

I appreciate supportive people, I just get really frustrated when they start talking in terms of what gay people experience. I understand how easy it is to do this, I have many deaf people in my extended family. I know what it is like to live with deaf people for a short time, to be in large crowds of deafies (culturally, I am allowed to use that term) for a long time, etc.. At a young age, I learned from hard experience that it was not my place to speak about their experiences. Now that I am older and know that I am gay, I know why. What you know of gay people's experiences and what I know about deaf people's experiences are only what we are told, an edited, condensed version that does not carry the same weight as actually living it. There can be very subtle nuances that are learned from a life of living with being deaf or being gay that someone that has not would never really understand.

I learned that I can speak in support of deafies without speaking for them or making claims about what their experiences as deaf people are.

NOW TO ANSWER THE QUESTION ABOUT LDS TEACHINGS ABOUT PRAYER FIXING GAYS:

You asked "Are you saying that the church commonly tells individual gay (non-bi) members that if they pray, God will make them attracted to one opposite sex individual for the purpose of procreation?" to be honest, I don't recall making any claims about what TSCC actually teaches in that thread, I only claimed that the profile told a story that was not at all outside the experiences of some gay men.

Now if you ask me do I think the LDS teaches or has taught that you can "pray the gay away", I would have to give a qualified answer.

In the past, TSCC did believe that gays could change, but did NOT believe that prayer alone was enough. Here is a three part video about what went on at BYU to fix gays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwUTVQ4mfNE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV-8BmFwGIc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeMKmnMfNUo&feature=related

Then, from what I can gather, there was a period where being gay was a sin in and of itself That getting married to the right woman would fix.

Now, TSCC is teaching that they don't know what causes a person to be gay (a failure of the prophet in my book). They do say that a person that has same sex attractions will find happiness and fulfillment by following the teachings of TSCC. That means that a gay man would have to be celibate or to have sex, he would have to marry a woman and have sex only with her. It is my understanding that TSCC "officially" no longer teaches that a getting married to a person of the opposite sex will fix gays.

There is an acceptable Mormon mold that all people are supposed to fit into which is male and female married with children. This is the model of the plan of salvation, the Declaration on the Family, and the temple sealing all indicate. Faithful members are supposed to fit into the model regardless of their person circumstances or orientations. This would include those members who marry non-members or who don't wait to be married in the temple. They are all basically lesser forms of marriage when compared to the first time temple marriages.

Implied in all of the above is that God will bless those who fit themselves into the Mormon mold. It is, after all, supposed to be the God approved mold. So, if a person is gay, they should resist behaving as a gay person normally would - i.e. have same sex relationships. If the gay person is able to fit him or herself into a straight relationship, then God can be given credit as "blessing" the gay person to being enough attracted to someone of the opposite sex to marry them. I've heard (or rather read posts by) gay men say as much when they claimed that their wives were their only link to heterosexuality. They may even claim to be "happy", but I suspect they are "happiest" to be able to fit into the acceptable mold expected by their Mormon families and communities. Being ostracized stinks! There was even a gay guy whose post was reported here (as I recall). He claimed he was a better lover for his wife because is general heterosexual disinterest meant he could last longer during their sexual engagements.

My assessment of Mormonism is that TSCC doesn't really care about any of its members - or at least only superficially. Members’ happiness is secondary to how the individual serves and functions for TSCC. I think it is as true for straights as it is for gays except that the acceptable model excludes gays completely while straight individuals do have acceptable outlets for their natural sexual orientation. Gays generally speaking have no place to be who we are without being criticized and singled out.

The recent article from San Francisco where a supposedly gay man was called to a "leadership position" (as a Bishop's executive secretary) is an anomaly and will likely end as soon as the "openly gay Mormon man" begins to date other men or falls in love with another man and begins a relationship with him. Unless he sticks enough within the acceptable mold, he will continue as the token "gay" man of Mormonism in that Ward/Stake/(etc). But if and when he steps outside the tight boundaries Mormonism allows, he will be out - and I don't mean "out of the closet".

The electro shock therapy that went on at BYU to change the orientation of gays certainly looks like they 'care'. The plan of salvation of which you speak is the REASON for their 'caring'.

I am surprised to see you say that electro shock therapy to change a person's sexual orientation is in any "caring" even in the most superficial way. It would be akin to Brigham Young introducing blood atonement for sins could only be forgiven by taking the sinner's life in a bloody and brutal way. Young claimed that the sinner would thank his killer in heaven for taking his life and saving him from damnation and claimed that a good Mormon should "care" enough about the well being of his neighbor to slit his throat should the neighbor commit such a sin. This is no sort of "caring" (nor very Christian since Christ's death is supposed to atone for all the sins of mankind) but the worst sort of distortion of the term's definition.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/care

3 a : painstaking or watchful attention

I am more surprised at your misunderstanding of the legitimate use of the word "care". I think it quite legitimate to claim that TSCC has paid "painstaking or watchful attention" to the gay issue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2011 12:59PM by MJ.

but only in so far as to cause no diviation from their approved mold for individuals.

My use of the term, however, was as a verb and the one you provide is as a noun: "1a : to feel trouble or anxiety b : to feel interest or concern <care about freedom>
2: to give care <care for the sick>
3a : to have a liking, fondness, or taste <don't care for your attitude>" (also from merriam-webster.com)

I would reiterate that TSCC does not "care" about what someone's sexual orientation is so long as they fit themselves into the approved Mormon mold - to appear/behave as a heterosexual. Their only "care" is when they don't appear/behave as straight and assert themselves as acceptable the way they are.

Mormonism is a one-size-fits all and the one size in terms of sexuality is straight. They have no tolerance for diviation except to remold behavior to what they find acceptable.

Henry Ford is supposed to have once said that his customers could buy any color car he made so long as it was black. TSCC says by their actions that a member (or any other person) can have any sexuality they like (as if it were a choice) so long as it is - or at least appears - straight.

My point is, the LDS does "care about" gays. They would NOT go through all that effort of they did not "care about" that ISSUE, and gays.

The verb discussion does not change my point, they still exhibit care regarding the gay issue and gays, they do care about it, regardless of the reasons. Yes, *A* reason why they care is because being gay is a "divination from their approved mold for individuals", but that reason does not negate the fact that they do care about the gay issue.

They cared enough to mobilize the troops in CA to defeat prop 8

They cared enough that they were willing to torture people.

They do not care so much about people that break the mold and wear multiple ear rings. So it is not just the breaking of the "mold" that is the issue.

Sorry, I am even more surprised at your continued defense over your misunderstanding of the term care.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2011 01:54PM by MJ.

I was not talking about sexuality in terms of gay issues. I was talking about sexuality generally. That is why I started off with "TSCC doesn't care if someone is gay, straight, bi, or something else." If I was talking about just gay issues and not personal sexuality, I would not have included "straight" or "something else". All the examples you provide for the "care" TSCC has for gay issues (and I agree) also shows that they have no "care for" an individual's sexuality so long as it is or appears straight.

I only intend to be correctly understood. Your insistence that I admit to some sort of mistake is offensive.

This will be my last post on this thread. I find conversation with you typically take this route and provide no satisfaction. I expect you will be even more surprised that I refuse to admit to a mistake. So be it. I will take a position that we simply disagree.

They do care is someone if bi, straight or gay IF THEY CARED ENOUGH TO GO THROUGH THE TIME AND EXPENSE TORTURE A GAY PERSON TO MAKE THEM STRAIGHT.

I don't see how you can ignore that REALITY and that EVIDENCE.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2011 05:24PM by MJ.

Puli, definitions of caring aside, I love your take on this relating it to the blood atonement. It really helps spell out the depth of the of the arrogance of the church as it damages innocent people's lives.

Like you I see "vested interest" from the church but do not consider it to be on the same level as "caring" which implies empathy, at least to me alone maybe. Painstaking interest is more on the line of vested interest for self important reasons.

Any way I am glad the issue got side tracked just a little so you could write the blood atonement angle.

Your post is very insightful and good deconstruction of the relationship of member to church. However...

In my experience as a closeted mormon, I never saw any caring about the members period. Not even superficially. With the exception of some actions by individual members,everything I saw in any official church capacity transcended the superficial and went straight to the phony and fake. You were right to say the only value a member has is his ability to fit the mold.

My experience as a gay BIC mormon was so uniquely painful and damaging that I do no like to be lumped together with any other group simply because there may be some smaller bridges and shared experiences.

I do want to say that I appreciate your caring and I value more than any one will know the exmos here who show support, love and try to understand. I do the same for you as best I can, but I understand that I will probably never fully "get" what it is all about for you.

Thanks again for your post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2011 09:04PM by blueorchid.

Yes it's true. I was told to pray, read scriptures, fast, get counseling at LDS family services in Provo from the best therapist to help gays "become" straight (which my poor widowed mother couldn't afford but she wanted me to overcome!) I was a damn good Mormon boy, I put everything into the church to overcome my attraction to males, yet it would NEVER go away. Contemplated suicide many times as a teenager, because my raging hormones wanted a man and never a woman! All my good intentions towards prayer, fasting, seminary, church callings, tithing, CONSTANT scripture study, reading of church books, and constant listening of church music (yes I was heavily invested!) all of that wasn't working. Had an older sister who says she knew I was gay since I was little tell me that maybe I wasn't trying hard enough! WTF?!?! I'm happy to say that I'm out of the church now and live in a monogamous, committed 5 year relationship! Never been happier or felt more free. Lately I've been gaining more compassion towards LDS folk because they are true victims and don't even know it. I wish the church would start teaching that homosexuality is natural so all of the young kids who are gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender/queer won't have the awful
shame put onto them that I and so many others have had. Wait...the church is based on shaming it's members...so that probably will never happen!

Thanks so much to all who posted. I had some misconceptions which you have nicely cleared up.

Carry on....:)

Anagrammy

This is one of my main problems with this church. Even in last April's conference (or was it the one before?) BKP gave his talk referencing gays implying that he does not believe they were born that way. They still try to promote the idea that it's a choice and that children can somehow be led into being gay by too much exposure to it. They still support medical/psychological interventions to train the gay out of someone. They still promote the stories of the supposedly cured gay who went on to a heterosexual relationship. What the church has done, and and continues to do, to gay members is unconscionable. Now the new rule is, "Oh you're gay and you haven't been cured? Well, that's okay as long as you remain celibate for the rest of your life." What a cruel thing to expect from someone.

There a several gays in our family, yet the TBMs of the family continue to treat them in a condescending manner while supporting DOMA, Prop 8, and other antigay legislation. It's shameful. And really, when you think about it, what else can the church do? They painted themselves into a corner with their stupid family proclamation, plan of salvation, etc. There is no way for them to reconcile the biological fact that some people are gay with their supposed divine revelation. So instead they have to grasp at straws and continue to promote archaic views.

As gay person, I felt like it was a common subject--like every bishop/stake president at church and every professor at BYU had something to say on the subject.

I noticed that they would often throw up a smoke screen first to distract the gays in the audience. They would paint a hopeless picture of the "gay lifestyle," implying that gay relationships are unstable, fleeting, based entirely on sex, devoid of any real emotional attachment, and, above all else, incapable of lasting satisfaction because they do not result in the birth of one's own biological children. The gays in the congregation/class (I assume since it was true for me) accepted this sort of characterization at face value because they had no experience with gay relationships.

Having accepted such assertions, it was easy to also accept that homosexuality was something to be fixed. Luckily for me I wasn't ever spiritual. So, I turned inward to solve the problem rather than toward church leaders. The desire to change flew out the window once I had my first real crush. I was able to evaluate my feelings honestly, and came to the conclusion that they were pure and good, and that they did not come from the rotten place the church would have me believe.

So, in short, it's just another way for the church to control its members. It tries to fool them into thinking it has all the answers, that their instincts are wrong, and that it offers the only pathway to change. If you don't believe that it has all the answers, then the whole scheme is thrown off.

When you look inward rather than to others, I think that is when you are the most spiritual. I always looked inward too, trusted myself, and that's what made the difference in the end.

"The desire to change flew out the window once I had my first real crush."

I am so happy you said that. It was so true for me too, I was so accepting of beating myself mercilessly up over it all--until--I fell madly in love and suddenly the angst and guilt were gone. I just could not feel bad about myself anymore.

For an interesting history on gays and mormonism (Including Brigham Young's cross dressing son who would perform at the tabernacle in drag! And the leader of the MoTab who hints at being in a secret homosexual relationship!) take a look at the website at the bottom of the post. It has many references, but I know that doesn't necessarily mean it's all real. I just haven't had the time to actually do my own research yet, nonetheless it's still very interesting! Enjoy!

http://www.connellodonovan.com/abom.html

At one point in time, I was given a priesthood blessing by my bishop, who knew quite well that I "struggled" with homosexual feelings, in which he more or less promised me that i would marry a woman. After the blessing, he told me that he had seen this woman while giving me the blessing. I clung to that promise for 4 or 5 years.

That same bishop had encouraged me to hope for marriage and to date, as had other bishops before that and after. I only ever had one bishop who told me not to expect to marry in this life. And the bishop who I had after him (after moving to a different city) again was encouraging me to marry a woman. All of these bishops knew about my "struggle" as I had confessed it.

I stopped attending church in 2003 after finally coming out to myself and my non-Mormon parents (who were surprised by announcement but very supportive--it helps that I have a younger brother who is gay who came out in the late 80s).