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Posted by: Boilermaker ( )
Date: October 05, 2011 10:50AM

The Joseph Smith Inspired Version says this in JST Luke 10:23:

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.

That is an "inspired" translation of Luke 10:22:

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

I don't think anyone would ever doubt Joseph Smith saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ after reading his translation of Luke. He obviously saw them as two separate personages -- that's why the Father is the Son and the Son is the Father.

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Posted by: Ed (not logged in) ( )
Date: October 05, 2011 11:14AM

You definitely see a clear evolution in Smith's concept of God through the 1830s. God is presented throughout the Book of Mormon and early church in purely modalist terms. Modalism is the name applied to the belief that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are exactly the being, simply manifesting itself in different "modes" as the occasion arises. This is different than the Trinity, which held that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were of the same substance, but actually constituted different persons.

The funny thing is that if you ask the average Christian to describe the Trinity, they will describe modalism, which is much easier to wrap your head around. It seems to me that Joseph Smith started out trying to defend triniatarian (though doing it badly). His job is to make the teaches of the Godhead clearer than what you actually have in the Bible. Passages like JST Luke 10:23 are all over the Book of Mormon (namely in Abinidi's sermon).

By 1834 his views start changing, and this produces a significant amount of backpedaling, since both the Book of Mormon and JST are now finished. The Lectures on Faith (1834?) state that God and the Son are separate beings, and that the Holy Ghost is really a personification of the Father's mind. By 1838 he will change it again so that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are each separate beings that are independent of each other.

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Posted by: Boilermaker ( )
Date: October 07, 2011 08:50AM

Do most Mormons realize these problems exist? Because the first vision supposedly happened in 1820 shouldn't they be able to figure this is a problem? I recently saw this video which makes me believe most Mormons don't manage to discover the contradictions even when they are in plain sight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g00VjgTQLuo

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Posted by: Ed (not logged in) ( )
Date: October 07, 2011 11:06AM

The church has done a pretty good job of burying all of the previous accounts of first vision and so most members are only familiar with the initial one. Plus, they tend to precondition members on how to read all of the Father=Son verses in LDS scripture (teaching on Divine Investiture of Authority). The result is that most Mormons don't even think notice the problem when they are reading their scriptures.

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Posted by: Lucky ( )
Date: October 07, 2011 09:49AM

yah, its pretty comical when MORmONS get uppity and start slamming on the catholics about the trinity, because MORmONS have their own really stupid version of the trinity but they just totally avoid calling it a "trinity", so MORmONS think that means everything they do is OK.

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Posted by: Scott.T ( )
Date: October 07, 2011 10:33AM

only Jesus had a body .... and the Holy Ghost wasn't a "personage" at all but just the influence of god's spirit being felt.

Reference: Lectures on Faith, Lecture #5, p 59, 61-63, 65, published as part of the D&C until 1921.

Joseph just couldn't make up his mind for such a long time! One individual? Two individuals? Three individuals? One body, one spirit? Two bodies, one spirit? Who knows ... it was just so difficult to remember that important vision and it would probably have reflected badly on poor old Joe's memory and attention span to go back to his good pal god and ask for clarification ... so it took 18 years to straighten it out and write it down correctly, I guess (sarcasm intended).

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