Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Or clannish, arrogant, offensive to others, contentious, and on and on and on.
Too many LDS folks don't know, or understand, or listen to their own prophets and leaders and make it unnecessarily difficult for members to leave the religion and respect their rights to change their mind.
We could start with the 11th Article of Faith which is LDS doctrine:
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
(From a post by Deconstructor - several years ago - 2006, I believe, on instruction from leaders advice on how to treat others.)
"As I have said before, we must not be clannish. We must never adopt a holier-than-thou attitude. We must not be self-righteous. We must be magnanimous, and open, and friendly. We can keep our faith. We can practice our religion. We can cherish our method or worship without being offensive to others. I take this occasion to plead for a spirit of tolerance and neighborliness, of friendship and love toward those of other faiths."
- President Gordon B. Hinckley, July 2001
And again in the last General Conference...
"We cannot be arrogant. We cannot be self-righteous. The very situation in which the Lord has placed us requires that we be humble as the beneficiaries of His direction. While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must always be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding."
- President Gordon B. Hinckley, Fall 2003 General Conference, Sunday Morning Session
Another living Apostle of the church has condemned bothering those who do not agree with Mormonism:
"That instruction continues today to be part of the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In enumerating the key doctrines of the restored Church, Joseph Smith said, while "we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience," we also "allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may" (A of F 1:11)."
"That is what Jesus taught His disciples - including 'a certain lawyer' - through the parable of the good Samaritan. And that is what He is teaching us today through living prophets and apostles. Love one another. Be kind to one another despite our deepest differences. Treat one another with respect..'"
- Apostle M. Russell Ballard, "Doctrine of Inclusion," Ensign, Nov. 2001, 35
No faithful Mormon should ever harass or contend with former members or people of other faiths:
"He that hath the spirit of contention is not of me [saith the Lord], but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away." (3 Ne. 11:29-30.)
"With that call comes the commitment to emulate the patterns of the Prince of Peace. That goal is shared by worthy servants of the Master, who would not speak ill of others nor provoke contention over teachings declared by ancient or living prophets. Certainly no faithful follower of God would promote any cause even remotely related to religion if rooted in controversy, because contention is not of the Lord."
"To begin, show compassionate concern for others. Control the tongue, the pen, and the word processor. Whenever tempted to dispute, remember this proverb: "He that is void of wisdom despiseth his neighbour: but a man of understanding holdeth his peace." (Prov. 11:12; see also Prov. 17:28.)"
"Bridle the passion to speak or write contentiously for personal gain or glory. The Apostle Paul thus counseled the Philippians, "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." (Philip. 2:3.)
- Apostle Russell M. Nelson, "The Canker of Contention," Ensign, May 1989, Page 68st
There are many ways to deal with exclusion when confronted. The above list may need to be reviewed with those that are being exclusionary.
On being excluded, etc.
This is how I do it. Each person finds the method that works best for them.
I learned early on in my life that I could choose how I responded to anything. One of the best ways to respond to other people's negative, exclusionary, condescending, etc., behavior, comments, etc. ( even if directed at me) was not to take it personally. I have cemented a truism in my mind: it's about them, not me.
This has to do with what it means to own my own power and not allow others to disrupt my peace of mind.
Leaving Mormonism is, for many, leaving their tribe in every sense of the word. I understand this on many levels.
Leaving Mormonism, or leaving your tribe, however one approaches the exit process, as I describe it, is never about being weak. It is about being strong enough to feel the fear and do it anyway even if the consequences of our decisions are not known at the time.It's about being willing to step outside the cultural, religious boundaries of the familial tribe, and be OK doing it
Leaving Mormonism takes a huge dose of courage, tenacity and perseverance to withstand the onslaught of any Mormon who tries to discourage you from making choices that conflict with the long standing, generational, religious traditions.
In conclusion:
One of my favorite quotes that describes my own personal struggles. As a young adult convert, my experiences are naturally going to be different that a BIC generational member.
"The individual has always had to struggle to resist the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
--Nietzsche
It's my personal experience that I have deal with members who do understand this advice, and for the most part, have lived it in how they treat me.
Too many LDS folks don't know, or understand, or listen to their own prophets and leaders and make it unnecessarily difficult for members to leave the religion and respect their rights to change their mind.
We could start with the 11th Article of Faith which is LDS doctrine:
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
(From a post by Deconstructor - several years ago - 2006, I believe, on instruction from leaders advice on how to treat others.)
"As I have said before, we must not be clannish. We must never adopt a holier-than-thou attitude. We must not be self-righteous. We must be magnanimous, and open, and friendly. We can keep our faith. We can practice our religion. We can cherish our method or worship without being offensive to others. I take this occasion to plead for a spirit of tolerance and neighborliness, of friendship and love toward those of other faiths."
- President Gordon B. Hinckley, July 2001
And again in the last General Conference...
"We cannot be arrogant. We cannot be self-righteous. The very situation in which the Lord has placed us requires that we be humble as the beneficiaries of His direction. While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must always be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding."
- President Gordon B. Hinckley, Fall 2003 General Conference, Sunday Morning Session
Another living Apostle of the church has condemned bothering those who do not agree with Mormonism:
"That instruction continues today to be part of the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In enumerating the key doctrines of the restored Church, Joseph Smith said, while "we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience," we also "allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may" (A of F 1:11)."
"That is what Jesus taught His disciples - including 'a certain lawyer' - through the parable of the good Samaritan. And that is what He is teaching us today through living prophets and apostles. Love one another. Be kind to one another despite our deepest differences. Treat one another with respect..'"
- Apostle M. Russell Ballard, "Doctrine of Inclusion," Ensign, Nov. 2001, 35
No faithful Mormon should ever harass or contend with former members or people of other faiths:
"He that hath the spirit of contention is not of me [saith the Lord], but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away." (3 Ne. 11:29-30.)
"With that call comes the commitment to emulate the patterns of the Prince of Peace. That goal is shared by worthy servants of the Master, who would not speak ill of others nor provoke contention over teachings declared by ancient or living prophets. Certainly no faithful follower of God would promote any cause even remotely related to religion if rooted in controversy, because contention is not of the Lord."
"To begin, show compassionate concern for others. Control the tongue, the pen, and the word processor. Whenever tempted to dispute, remember this proverb: "He that is void of wisdom despiseth his neighbour: but a man of understanding holdeth his peace." (Prov. 11:12; see also Prov. 17:28.)"
"Bridle the passion to speak or write contentiously for personal gain or glory. The Apostle Paul thus counseled the Philippians, "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." (Philip. 2:3.)
- Apostle Russell M. Nelson, "The Canker of Contention," Ensign, May 1989, Page 68st
There are many ways to deal with exclusion when confronted. The above list may need to be reviewed with those that are being exclusionary.
On being excluded, etc.
This is how I do it. Each person finds the method that works best for them.
I learned early on in my life that I could choose how I responded to anything. One of the best ways to respond to other people's negative, exclusionary, condescending, etc., behavior, comments, etc. ( even if directed at me) was not to take it personally. I have cemented a truism in my mind: it's about them, not me.
This has to do with what it means to own my own power and not allow others to disrupt my peace of mind.
Leaving Mormonism is, for many, leaving their tribe in every sense of the word. I understand this on many levels.
Leaving Mormonism, or leaving your tribe, however one approaches the exit process, as I describe it, is never about being weak. It is about being strong enough to feel the fear and do it anyway even if the consequences of our decisions are not known at the time.It's about being willing to step outside the cultural, religious boundaries of the familial tribe, and be OK doing it
Leaving Mormonism takes a huge dose of courage, tenacity and perseverance to withstand the onslaught of any Mormon who tries to discourage you from making choices that conflict with the long standing, generational, religious traditions.
In conclusion:
One of my favorite quotes that describes my own personal struggles. As a young adult convert, my experiences are naturally going to be different that a BIC generational member.
"The individual has always had to struggle to resist the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
--Nietzsche
It's my personal experience that I have deal with members who do understand this advice, and for the most part, have lived it in how they treat me.
like we believe what church leaders say. How many lies have they told us?
I have been shunned AS A TBM and shunned as an inactive. I have been treated nice as a TBM by other TBMS and treated nice as an inactive.
All depends on the person--but just read Cheryl's thread. My hell, I couldn't even go to my sister's wedding. I wasn't endowed yet. None of her siblings were there as our older brother was not worthy and divorced, I was next, 3 younger than me--and NOT A ONE OF US was able to go to her wedding. That is SHUNNING. Weddings are a celebration of FAMILY, yet my closest siblings were not at my wedding and neither were my niece and nephews (who I was extremely close to--like my own).
Mormons SHUN A LOT and if it isn't stated, it is IMPLIED ALL THE TIME.
I have been shunned AS A TBM and shunned as an inactive. I have been treated nice as a TBM by other TBMS and treated nice as an inactive.
All depends on the person--but just read Cheryl's thread. My hell, I couldn't even go to my sister's wedding. I wasn't endowed yet. None of her siblings were there as our older brother was not worthy and divorced, I was next, 3 younger than me--and NOT A ONE OF US was able to go to her wedding. That is SHUNNING. Weddings are a celebration of FAMILY, yet my closest siblings were not at my wedding and neither were my niece and nephews (who I was extremely close to--like my own).
Mormons SHUN A LOT and if it isn't stated, it is IMPLIED ALL THE TIME.
How many threads have we seen here where the "unworthy" were shunned in regards to important events like weddings? The whole temple recommend thing teaches an "worthy" and "unworthy", or in other words deserving and undeserving. Once you have an entrenched privileged/worthy/deserving class, there will be shunning of one sort or another.
that any kind of shunning was part of their teachings or their "gospel", or even implied.
It was not my experience.
Instead, what I saw was a lot of effort spent finding the "lost sheep" and trying to get them back in the fold. They were sought out, purposely, and often members given a specific assignment to try to fellowship the inactive member.
I was a Visiting Teacher to many inactive members. I never once knew why they were inactive, never asked, rarely, did anyone even hit at why they didn't attend. They were invited to events, sometimes they would attend, sometimes not.
Generally, I presumed that Mormonism was their culture and heritage, but they didn't live the commandments of the religion, so they didn't attend much.
That is how I understood it at the time. I was more interested in being a friend than their concerns about the religion.
I have seen some members be very rude, and exclusionary toward other members, however, it was my understanding at the time, that their behavior was worse than those that were being treated badly. I've even been in a meeting when someone was chastised for treating a member in an exclusionary manner.
I do think that living in CA in a university town where there were few LDS members in a neighborhood made a difference in the way the members lived their religion.
There was a large variety of members that lived their religion in a wide variety of ways from the very strict, to those that were more liberal.
Generally, the strict LDS members were considered, in my group of friends, to be a bit ..strange.
I found that some members were very exclusionary, some wouldn't allow their children to have slumber parties, for instance, or to take off their church clothes on Sunday, etc.
But shunning? I didn't experience it.
It was not my experience.
Instead, what I saw was a lot of effort spent finding the "lost sheep" and trying to get them back in the fold. They were sought out, purposely, and often members given a specific assignment to try to fellowship the inactive member.
I was a Visiting Teacher to many inactive members. I never once knew why they were inactive, never asked, rarely, did anyone even hit at why they didn't attend. They were invited to events, sometimes they would attend, sometimes not.
Generally, I presumed that Mormonism was their culture and heritage, but they didn't live the commandments of the religion, so they didn't attend much.
That is how I understood it at the time. I was more interested in being a friend than their concerns about the religion.
I have seen some members be very rude, and exclusionary toward other members, however, it was my understanding at the time, that their behavior was worse than those that were being treated badly. I've even been in a meeting when someone was chastised for treating a member in an exclusionary manner.
I do think that living in CA in a university town where there were few LDS members in a neighborhood made a difference in the way the members lived their religion.
There was a large variety of members that lived their religion in a wide variety of ways from the very strict, to those that were more liberal.
Generally, the strict LDS members were considered, in my group of friends, to be a bit ..strange.
I found that some members were very exclusionary, some wouldn't allow their children to have slumber parties, for instance, or to take off their church clothes on Sunday, etc.
But shunning? I didn't experience it.
My dad was not very active mormon. My mother was socially awkward--because she was raised by 2 deaf parents. She was their oldest child and actually learned to sign before she learned to speak. She had to interpret for them from a very young age. Imagine what her life was like. Even as my grandmother's grandchild, I saw the way people treated her--and so my mother was not very social, but SHE BELIEVED.
The women in the ward would go to lunch at least once a month and ask my mother to babysit their children or let her know that they were going, but not invite her.
Every ward I've ever lived in had a clique.
I can't even begin to tell you the things that happend to us as children because we didn't fit the mold.
I've said it many times before and I'll continue to say it--I was treated BETTER in mormonism when I was with my gay cheating husband than any other time. He was ex. sec. and was rising fast. His dad was a bishop (and a jerk like no other). When I knew my marriage was falling apart, I took my kids out of the church because I DID NOT want them treated as I was as a child. We were ostracized on a regular basis in mormonism growing up. I have NO CLUE why some people stay and I have NO CLUE why I stayed so long.
Mormonism is very cliquish. It is like being in middle school all your life.
The women in the ward would go to lunch at least once a month and ask my mother to babysit their children or let her know that they were going, but not invite her.
Every ward I've ever lived in had a clique.
I can't even begin to tell you the things that happend to us as children because we didn't fit the mold.
I've said it many times before and I'll continue to say it--I was treated BETTER in mormonism when I was with my gay cheating husband than any other time. He was ex. sec. and was rising fast. His dad was a bishop (and a jerk like no other). When I knew my marriage was falling apart, I took my kids out of the church because I DID NOT want them treated as I was as a child. We were ostracized on a regular basis in mormonism growing up. I have NO CLUE why some people stay and I have NO CLUE why I stayed so long.
Mormonism is very cliquish. It is like being in middle school all your life.
I have always lived in Utah, and I am not saying my experience was typical, but my never Mo dad and grandmother were never shunned by Mormons and I have not been shunned since leaving the church. I had never Mo friends and Jack Mo friends growing up and it was never a problem. I know we have all had different experiences and many people have been shunned, but I do not believe it is as rampant as some posters would have you believe.I do believe it exists, but there are plenty of Morons out there who don't do it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2011 03:57PM by bona dea.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2011 03:57PM by bona dea.
Why would anyone need to admonish the mormons not to shun if it wasn't a problem?
Devoted Exmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would anyone need to admonish the mormons not
> to shun if it wasn't a problem?
None of the comments or scriptures mention shunning,.... That was my point about the advice. There is no official statement on shunning. It doesn't exist. Doesn't mean that people don't do it, but they are not in compliance with the church's teachings if they do. Just my observation, based on my personal experiences.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would anyone need to admonish the mormons not
> to shun if it wasn't a problem?
None of the comments or scriptures mention shunning,.... That was my point about the advice. There is no official statement on shunning. It doesn't exist. Doesn't mean that people don't do it, but they are not in compliance with the church's teachings if they do. Just my observation, based on my personal experiences.
It's a common part of mormon life.
they tell the members to surround themselves with things and people who uplift them and share their standards, and to avoid the appearance of evil, and to be an example to others and be in the world but not of it and all the other crap that translates to "Even though you can never be good enough, you're better than them so don't fraternize unless you think they might want to join our club."
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2011 03:45PM by munchybotaz.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2011 03:45PM by munchybotaz.
Yeah, munchybotaz. Out of the other sides of their mouths comes the real truth.
The mormon shunning is an art. It is nuanced and intricate in the forms it takes on. Some is blatant (Prop 8) and is easy to spot like a wolf in sheep's clothing. A lot of the really damaging exclusion takes a little more sophistication to spot--Mormons in love's clothing.
The mormon shunning is an art. It is nuanced and intricate in the forms it takes on. Some is blatant (Prop 8) and is easy to spot like a wolf in sheep's clothing. A lot of the really damaging exclusion takes a little more sophistication to spot--Mormons in love's clothing.
... intellectuals, feminists and homosexuals.
"Enemies" I think cult leaders call them?
I know I'm always inclined to "buddy-up" with folks who hate me because I might fall into one of those categories.
If some folks weren't so goofy, they might find themselves upgraded to stupid.
Timothy
"Enemies" I think cult leaders call them?
I know I'm always inclined to "buddy-up" with folks who hate me because I might fall into one of those categories.
If some folks weren't so goofy, they might find themselves upgraded to stupid.
Timothy
Court of "love"
"We no longer practice polygamy" but they believe it is God's way, that there will be polygamy in heaven, and that God and Christ are polygamists, too.
"Families are forever" but my children were taught in Primary that our family will be separated, and will pass by each other as strangers in the hereafter.
TSCC is a "family" church that breaks up families. I have neighbors who have dis-owned their own children because they would not go on a mission, or are gay, or married to someone of a different race.
"The Proclamation on The Family" that hangs in Mormon houses, is actually an anti-gay marriage proclamation in disguise.
We are "the lazy, the offended, transgressors" according to The Great Mormon Prophet Monson. Monson also preaches that adult children who leave the church should not be "treated with the same consideration" as the faithful adult children who stay in the church.
In TR interviews, the question is asked, "Are you currently associating with any apostates or apostate groups?"
Nelson preaches that unconditional love is anti-Christ. That's right. Mormons do not believe in unconditional love. They also don't believe that Christ's Atonement saves us ALL. Only OBEDIENCE saves Mormons and earns them love.
Mormonism isn't even a real religion. It was founded by a con-man. WHY WOULD ANYONE HOLD THESE CULT MEMBERS TO THEIR WORD?
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2011 04:24PM by forestpal.
"We no longer practice polygamy" but they believe it is God's way, that there will be polygamy in heaven, and that God and Christ are polygamists, too.
"Families are forever" but my children were taught in Primary that our family will be separated, and will pass by each other as strangers in the hereafter.
TSCC is a "family" church that breaks up families. I have neighbors who have dis-owned their own children because they would not go on a mission, or are gay, or married to someone of a different race.
"The Proclamation on The Family" that hangs in Mormon houses, is actually an anti-gay marriage proclamation in disguise.
We are "the lazy, the offended, transgressors" according to The Great Mormon Prophet Monson. Monson also preaches that adult children who leave the church should not be "treated with the same consideration" as the faithful adult children who stay in the church.
In TR interviews, the question is asked, "Are you currently associating with any apostates or apostate groups?"
Nelson preaches that unconditional love is anti-Christ. That's right. Mormons do not believe in unconditional love. They also don't believe that Christ's Atonement saves us ALL. Only OBEDIENCE saves Mormons and earns them love.
Mormonism isn't even a real religion. It was founded by a con-man. WHY WOULD ANYONE HOLD THESE CULT MEMBERS TO THEIR WORD?
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2011 04:24PM by forestpal.
Nothing like some good old factual examples. And you stuck to the official mormon sanctioned ones. Great post.
Goes back to one of my favorite mottos,"Just the facts, ma'am."
Goes back to one of my favorite mottos,"Just the facts, ma'am."
blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing like some good old factual examples. And
> you stuck to the official mormon sanctioned ones.
> Great post.
The credit goes to Deconstructor and his great posts and web site!!
>
> Goes back to one of my favorite mottos,"Just the
> facts, ma'am."
Yes....you are right on target!
Or, my mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts!! :-0
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing like some good old factual examples. And
> you stuck to the official mormon sanctioned ones.
> Great post.
The credit goes to Deconstructor and his great posts and web site!!
>
> Goes back to one of my favorite mottos,"Just the
> facts, ma'am."
Yes....you are right on target!
Or, my mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts!! :-0
Theres doctorinal evediance for both points of view. Personal experience seems to show that many favor the less pleasent doctorine.
My grandmother was deaf--but she was mormon. Mormons shunned her, but I'm sure many people shun the deaf.
In my family--most of my brothers and sisters went inactive because of how our family was treated. We thought we were "odd" because my parents lived HONESTLY and didn't put up a facade. We grew up to find out we were the more normal ones.
My parents were farmers even if we lived in town. They didn't spend their money. They lived very frugally. When my mom died, the new bishop came by and my dad even said, "He thinks I'm poor." He owned a lot of land that nobody knew about because my parents didn't flaunt it.
In Utah, you either fit the mold or be treated poorly. My mother was friends with all those who had disabled children or were disabled themselves.
Mormons do have shunning down to an art form.
Like someone else said--if you don't shun, then you don't have to preach about it. My mother felt shunned all her life. I have no clue why she stayed mormon. My mother was not a perfect human being, but mormonism was not kind to her in any fashion. Funny--the women who left her out of the clique in the ward lined up for her viewing and funeral and told us we had the most wonderful woman for a mother. STupid bitches.
In my family--most of my brothers and sisters went inactive because of how our family was treated. We thought we were "odd" because my parents lived HONESTLY and didn't put up a facade. We grew up to find out we were the more normal ones.
My parents were farmers even if we lived in town. They didn't spend their money. They lived very frugally. When my mom died, the new bishop came by and my dad even said, "He thinks I'm poor." He owned a lot of land that nobody knew about because my parents didn't flaunt it.
In Utah, you either fit the mold or be treated poorly. My mother was friends with all those who had disabled children or were disabled themselves.
Mormons do have shunning down to an art form.
Like someone else said--if you don't shun, then you don't have to preach about it. My mother felt shunned all her life. I have no clue why she stayed mormon. My mother was not a perfect human being, but mormonism was not kind to her in any fashion. Funny--the women who left her out of the clique in the ward lined up for her viewing and funeral and told us we had the most wonderful woman for a mother. STupid bitches.
in the LDS church. I was single for a long time and then when I became a single mother, it continued. Singles are pariahs.
Look different, act different, don't go along with the status quo and you are shunned.
Actions speak louder than words.
Look different, act different, don't go along with the status quo and you are shunned.
Actions speak louder than words.
Don't you see the HUGE gap between Mormonism in Words and Mormonism in Action?
Which do you think teaches more: Words or Action (actions other than words)?
the TR questions aren't ignored, they're a not-so-subtle way of keeping 'the saints' under control/in Conformity.
Why is Loyalty to ChurchCo so important? is it just for convenience? I think not.
Which do you think teaches more: Words or Action (actions other than words)?
the TR questions aren't ignored, they're a not-so-subtle way of keeping 'the saints' under control/in Conformity.
Why is Loyalty to ChurchCo so important? is it just for convenience? I think not.
guynoirprivateeye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't you see the HUGE gap between Mormonism in
> Words and Mormonism in Action?
This will always be so. It's human nature. I can see the same thing in other religions as I experienced it --- long before I converted. People will do... well...what people do. Some will be more consistent, and others will not.
>
> Which do you think teaches more: Words or Action
> (actions other than words)?
Yes, by some of the members, of course. They both "teach" --- words and action teach best when they are consistent.
>
> the TR questions aren't ignored, they're a
> not-so-subtle way of keeping 'the saints' under
> control/in Conformity.
>
Yes, that's true. But, in my view, it's predominately a way to collect money.... tithing...
> Why is Loyalty to ChurchCo so important? is it
> just for convenience? I think not.
Loyalty to the LDS Church by it's members is paramount for the church to survive --- my view ?
It's the same with any organization. The bottom line is always ......money. No money, no church. :-)
Loyalty is found in many ways especially because it's a strong generational, familial, patriarchal, religious tribe in it's construction and that strong loyalty to home, family, culture and heritage will always be apparent.
Mormons are human beings like everyone else, they will live their religion differently. I don't think I ever found two Mormons who lived their religion exactly the same.
Edit: Again, I have no belief, or acceptance, or need for the claims of the LDS Church. My loyalty is to my family and loved ones, regardless of their religious beliefs. But, that's just me! :-)
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2011 08:48PM by SusieQ#1.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't you see the HUGE gap between Mormonism in
> Words and Mormonism in Action?
This will always be so. It's human nature. I can see the same thing in other religions as I experienced it --- long before I converted. People will do... well...what people do. Some will be more consistent, and others will not.
>
> Which do you think teaches more: Words or Action
> (actions other than words)?
Yes, by some of the members, of course. They both "teach" --- words and action teach best when they are consistent.
>
> the TR questions aren't ignored, they're a
> not-so-subtle way of keeping 'the saints' under
> control/in Conformity.
>
Yes, that's true. But, in my view, it's predominately a way to collect money.... tithing...
> Why is Loyalty to ChurchCo so important? is it
> just for convenience? I think not.
Loyalty to the LDS Church by it's members is paramount for the church to survive --- my view ?
It's the same with any organization. The bottom line is always ......money. No money, no church. :-)
Loyalty is found in many ways especially because it's a strong generational, familial, patriarchal, religious tribe in it's construction and that strong loyalty to home, family, culture and heritage will always be apparent.
Mormons are human beings like everyone else, they will live their religion differently. I don't think I ever found two Mormons who lived their religion exactly the same.
Edit: Again, I have no belief, or acceptance, or need for the claims of the LDS Church. My loyalty is to my family and loved ones, regardless of their religious beliefs. But, that's just me! :-)
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2011 08:48PM by SusieQ#1.
They always talk the talk but seldom walk the walk.