http://community.babycenter.com/post/a30045603/wavering.

Looks like she's learning more about her church, thanks to the spotlight on a certain presidential candidate...

justawho just made the same post. That's quite a tread.

I always feel so torn when I see things like this.

On one hand, I have the strongest urge to give her a nudge in the "Exit" direction. On the other hand, I remember what it felt like to make that journey out....it sucked to say the least.

Is my life better after leaving? I don't know if that's the case.I'm happier yes, but it's a hell of a lot harder too. I know my life would have been better had I of never joined at all.

It sucks. I know what she is going through.

I'm impressed by a few of the posters who seem to have well-functioning brains and logic on their sides. Of course, there are quite a few there who just refuse to give up their warm, fuzzy, sheep status.

I'm also impressed that the thread hasn't yet been deleted.

The roller coaster of struggling to believe against increasing counter-evidence seems to be the default position among the more thoughtful Mormons I know.

I find it interesting that the church's priority in times such as these, where so many struggle with their testimonies because of exposure to unfavorable evidence, is it's endless PR campaigning and building a mall. They are so out-of-touch and not just with the rest of the world, even with their own people.

"It always makes me happy when an LDS member will comment, rebuking others anti-mormon comments. But at the same time, those few comments are always met with an enormous amount of replies with "facts" on why the LDS commenter is wrong. They leave links to sites that back up their claims, and although I have never clicked on them, I have to admit that its got me confused."

If you want to end the confusion then click are the links.

"Seriously, if you love the church and don't want your testimony to waiver, stop researching the history - it only gets worse and there's no shutting that door once you've opened it."

Very true.

"A history of people is not a part of my testimony, so I don't have to be bothered by it."

Wow if life were only that simple. Very interesting thread. I'm surprised it is still going.

Wait....

Over and over they say the gospel is true, it never changes. What exactly is the gospel? Garment lengths have changed, blood oath has been taken out of the temple ceremony, polygamy is no longer practiced. Didn't these things use to be part of the gospel? It doesn't make sense. "The gospel" is too vague of a term.

The requirements for salvation have changed. The first vision story has changed. Who can hold the priesthood has changed. When Christ is returning has changed.

I agree completely. When TBM's defend "the gospel" I wonder if they even understand what that means. What is the gospel and why is it so much more important than the human beings it was supposedly set up to save? "The gospel" is just a buzz word the church uses to stop people from thinking about what it is they actually believe.

My observation....

once you "know" something you can't "un-know" it.

That is how people lose their testimonies.

Facts CAN change what they wanted so badly to believe.

There are a lot of lies surrounding JS. Once i educated myself I can't un-know that.

Leadership in the mo church FEARS that fact.The internet is their worst nightmare. That is why they are spending so many $$$ to flood every corner of the internet that they can.

If the church leaders and members had any real integrity they would close it down b/c it is a fraud, a palpable, demonstrable fraud.

Maybe what pisses so many people off about the church is that it preens itself as a bastion of integrity and preaches the value of integrity (and "character" and being "valiant") when at its core it is just so many lies, no matter how many Eagle Scouts and Republicans and well-heeled, clean looking families it has under its multi-generational, indoctrinating, blackmailing, heavy handed thumb.

I was intrigued to see how many respondants had wavering testimonies or no testimony at all. The website MormonThink was mentioned twice on the first page of replies. The red pill/blue pill analogy from "The Matrix" was mentioned twice.

All is not well in Mormondom. The members are wandering further on the web than the suits would ever imagine.

You can also read the Lord of the Rings. I know this can be hard when you don't feel like it or you feel that you might be passed the point of getting anything out of it. In my experience, little has more power in my life, than reading the Lord of the Rings. It helps me gain a bigger picture of what I'm doing in my life, why I'm doing it, and how to do it. When I read the Lord of the Rings, I feel uplifted. I feel that I want to do better and that I can! I feel that Heavenly Father will provide a way for me. I feel peace and love.Those feelings I know can come to anyone who earnestly seeks it. If there's something in your life that is stopping you from feeling the Spirit strongly, I know that reading the Lord of the Rings can help you gain power to repent and change. The Lord of the Rings has given me a testimony of so many things. I know that Gandalf was a true wizard!

NOT gonna change either Mark Hofmann or the MMM.

NOT gonna change GBH's slippery way of evading truth with STUPID responses either...

NOT gonna change:

Ensign 'articles'

GA / GC talks

they ALL drone on and on WITHOUT ANY SUBSTANCE!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2011 02:23PM by guynoirprivateeye.

I found these posts so enlightening, as I have been contemplating the question of how membership is going to fare given the free flow of information that is now available. I have reached the conclusion that there will be an increasingly large number of apostates as time goes on, but there will always be a few diehards who will never, ever leave.

The post in the threat that made my head explode was this:

"I hear a lot of comments of how JS was a prophet but also a man and men make mistakes, same for BY. I think the church would fair much better if they'd just come out & say: polygamy, BofA, blacks prohibited from priesthood were all just mistakes of men. Instead you constantly hear how prophets aren't perfect, but all these things they messed up on were 100% true and from god. If, yes, they made mistakes because they were men, what were the mistakes?"

First, because the church is *constantly* playing the "speaking as a man" card, but mostly because I cannot fathom how *anyone* can look at the Book of Abraham and accept the explanation that it was a mistake. "Oops. I accidentally pretended to translate a document which I could not actually read. Oops. We accidentally used it as canonized scripture. Our bad."

tell the victim families of the MMM "Oops", but it didn't fly...

Speaking as a man: Blood Atonement,Blood Oaths; Racism, MMM;
Pending: Eternal Progression, temple weirdness

I think the Q15 knows that if they admit that the BOA was a mistake, if you will, well the BOM could very well be a "mistake." It would logically follow, especially given that their is no evidence of the BOM.

This is how you can tell the old white guys at the top are totally out of touch with reality - even their own sheeple. Shining a light on the church is a bad idea when you're trying to hide so much.

I think its just proof the more they push the media campaign of theirs the more mormons and non mormons are being informed of the truth and facts and not the church's bs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2011 01:47PM by cskawi.

...turn off your mind and reach for the happy gas (aka, the "Holy Ghost").

One of the testimony "reinforcers" posted a gem of a tribute to the propaganda slogans and memes used by the cult to keep people believing. The "Holy Ghost" features prominently, as might be expected. What is the Holy Ghost? Nobody knows. Nobody can explain it. It's a kind of gaseous, formless entity that fills the number three slot of the holy trinity. But Mormons tell themselves that the Holy Ghost told them that the Church is true. How did he do that? Usually by giving them warm, comfortable emotions--you know, the way people used to feel the "Holy Ghost" whenever Paul H. Dunn told them an inspiring story about heroic faith in action during WWII (even though the stories turned out to be false). I guess Mormon don't realize that non-Mormons and ex-Mormons feel the "Holy Ghost" quite often--and sometimes the Holy Ghost let's them know that they are right to not believe in the Mormon cult.

Here's the testimony reinforcer's message, with comments added/inserted in brackets and capitalization added to emphasize the indoctrination buzzwords and slogans:

"Honestly, this stuff for me (the history of the Church, etc) is all on the peripheral of my "TESTIMONY." [Ah, the magic testimony. Once you have that, everything else is peripheral--even facts.] My testimony is of the Gosple. [Correct spelling of the word "gospel" is optional, when you have a "testimony" of it.] Of the TRUTHS that I have via my EXPERIENCES WITH THE HOLY GHOST. [Don't ask for details about the "truths" because they come from "experiences with a gaseous entity known as the "Holy Ghost." Gas is hard to pin down.] I don't understand everything. I just don't. [I don't understand it. I don't know the facts about it. But I know it's all true. Okkkaaaay....] I read the Old Testiment and it's rare to find a prophet, ancient church leader, whoever that didn't have a scandal or issue of some sort. I DON'T DWELL ON IT. [Yeah, that's the ticket. If your lying sack o'sheet "prophet" is found with his pants down, taking advantage of a teen ager, just don't dwell on it. Think back to the time when he said a bunch of pretty words and you "felt the Holy Ghost." That's how you keep a testimony.] It honestly doesn't matter to me. What I know, I know. And the rest I just leave for others to worry about. I don't say "I know the Church is true" because that really doesn't make sense to me anyway. I know the Gosple is true. [Even though I still can't spell the word.] I know. [If I keep repeating "I know, I know, I know, I know" that means that I know, you know, so don't tell me that I don't know what I don't know, because it doesn't matter what I know. I just know. So there!] The confusion and distraction of what I don't understand in the Church doesn't dismiss the reality of things I know of God, of who I am. The rest is where faith comes in for me. I have faith in the Church. I have knowledge, security and comfort in the Gosple...

I have to say, I'm quite shocked, and pleasently surprised at how rational some of the mormon posters are on there. Usually in a discussion like this, you're lucky to even get one mormon say something sensible, but I think quite a few of them are being open-minded. Is that website always like that, or is it the membership of the church as a whole becoming more like this?

Many Mormons have to work at real jobs in the real world, in which they need to apply logic, reason and effective analytical approaches. So they do have the skills needed to see the fraud for what it is. They've just been peer-pressured, indoctrinated and frightened away from applying those skills to their religious belief system.

But I suspect the avalanche of unpleasant facts and truth coming at them is going to overwhelm their last line of defense: "But, but...the Holy Ghost told me that it's true."

Even now some of them are realizing that the warm fuzzy feelings that they've been indoctrinated into associating with the gaseous being referred to as the "Holy Ghost" are actually just warm fuzzy feelings...and the Holy Ghost has no more reality or substance to it than the Friendly Flying Fudge Frau.

Isn't there something in the New Testament about being made free by knowing the truth? ;-)

They have explored the net. Their natural curiosity and intelligence is made easier by the net. Sleepy kids are doodling on their notebooks and joking between themselves about Helen Mar Kimball. It's not the people at the top who are clueless, but their own parents as well. If you think teens are just memorizing all the nonsense, be real. They know as much as what is explained on this board as anyone here. They are here.

Now, why would a young LDS member stay on the crazy train? The fallout. Losing friends, hurting their social life and the girls especially understand the importance of marrying and RM. They do not want to be spinsters at 20. The boys know that they have to do the mission thing. They (if awake) are likely doodling about foreign countries, very, very far away. They go through the motions, intelligent, sleepy MTS-doomed zombies because there is so much to lose by allowing anybody to know what they know about the LDS. Plus, for girls there's that added Cinderella fantasy fueled by baby showers and weddings. Ooh. Chemistry is hard. I bet I could make a cute baby and land the adoration of everybody without much effort. My RM's parents will be heady with glee ande buy us a jet ski/condo/home etc. And then I can do lots of crafts and scrapbooking.

Chemistry is hard, and so is swimming upstream. If you think these teens don't know the whole story, well, they have access to everything. They are not stupid. They could well choose the realistic path in order to survive, but I do not for one minute think they do not know about MMM atrocities and such, but are under great pressure. I hope their parents grow up and get them out.

and they will want to tell their friends. The taboo information will be passed around and talked about behind the leaders' and parents' backs.

There will, however, be a certain percentage who will simply lack any kind of curiosity about boring historical details. It's all social to them. They'll be more interested in whatever's happening on facebook or what Kim Kardoozian or Lindsay Loonyhan are doing this week. That group will not and can not be bothered to read long articles on the Internet about what Joseph Smith or Brigham Young did or said...

I knew kids like that when I was growing up. They never really read any of the scriptures or Ensign articles. They had no curiosity about anything to do with history or doctrine. They just enjoyed hanging out with herd and going with the flow. It was their world, their culture, their community...and they were loyal to it the way that people choose to be fans of whatever professional sports team happens to be nearest to their home.

Funny thing is that those kids are now Bishops and Stake Presidents. Kinda scary, when you think about it, because I don't think they ever really changed and developed any interest in actually studying and thinking deeply about their church and its history. They still do it because it's their world, their culture, their community...their team.

do'h, I became a member of the site (even though I'm not pregnant) just to reply to that post and it is closed!!!!