They closed the last thread before I could reply, but I think we had some great discussion and we were really getting places! I had some great input and I would love some more. Forestpal had some great suggestions for tone on comments, questions, and a campaign to force the Morg to disclose its records. I remember that there was a campaign after the Prop 8 thing to do that. What happened to that? Does anyone know? I also agree that we should entertain suggestions from the forum for ways to work smarter. I think we have great power as a community despite our small numbers. We just have to exercise our influence. This could be our year if only we will seize the opportunity.

There was some complacency that the LDS church will be hoisted on its own petard. However, I am a little more skeptical. After watching the power of marketing consultants in poltical campaigns, I think there is real danger that the church can change the conversation with its millions unless there is opposition. The church wants to take the focus away from the controversial things and make itself look like a great humanitarian, family-friendly church. Although the skeptics and learned will never fall for this, I think that there is a large portion of moderate, passive people that will. Our country's recent political history shows that the skeptics on the comment boards are never the ones who hold the power. The true kingmakers are the "silent majority" in the center. They are surprisingly easy to sway. If the church can change their focus and have the conversation on their own ground, they can win. These people will think we are intolerant and that the Morg is somehow a persecuted minority. On some comment boards, I have even seen a few of these people standing up for the church. That is where we come in.

The church will not lose if it can stay on message. That is why we need to bring up the points that are hard to explain and watch the church trip all over itself while trying to fight back. The Prop 8 controversy was a great example of this. The church looked like an intolerant bully and the good people in the middle were scared by it. Packer made the situation worse by fighting back in General Conference and saying that people can't be gay because "God wouldn't do that to people." We need more moments like that. If the church is talking about family, most people will think it is benign. If we can put them on the defensive by bringing up some of these issues, we will win. Mormon leaders have a great tendency to say really stupid and revealing things when they get off topic. People can dismiss the shocking, but true stuff that we say. They cannot dismiss the church's bumbling explanations. We need to find ways to let them screw themselves over and we are the best positioned people on Earth to know what those issues are.

MikeyA had a great idea and I want to hear more ideas like it. He said that we should focus on the "Four Secret Handshakes" in the temple. That is a message that really resonates with the good Christians. It sounds crazy and it is true. The only problem is that a lot of people will dismiss something that crazy without a good source. That is why we need to state that we are former Mormons who have been through the temple and that the Four Secret Handshakes really do happen. No one can dismiss that. Mormons who haven't been through the temple will try to deny it and come away looking stupid when we show them the documentation. I think that this is a great message to spread on the Internet though. It has just as much "weirdness potential" as the "magic underwear" thing. People will remember both.

There was some very constructive dialogue about how to increase our professionalism. Heresy and Missguided brought up great points about how we mustn't be so crazy or crass ourselves that we reduce our credibility or scare off Lurkers and Nevermos. I think that Chinoblanco is right. We have an important role to play in showing people the truth and lettin our experiences be seen and our voices be heard. We just need to step up to the plate!

I think that the greatest way that we can have influence is through the mainstream media. If we ask enough questions on the comment boards or give stories to media contacts, that is how we will be heard by the American people. As always, RPackham has a great link on questions that a journalist should ask Romney. We should magnify his voice by encouraging these questions in other forums. The link is http://packham.n4m.org/romney.htm Which of these questions should we focus on? I think that some of the questions about his belief in the righteousness of polygamy and the death oaths in the temple would be particularly potent. This could be particularly deadly for Romney. If he weasels his way out, he looks like an unprincipled flip-flopper who would trade away his own religion for the presidency. If he doesn't get out of it easily, he is dead meat.

I have one great fear though. In the recent controversy about Rick Perry's pastor, a lot of mainstream media figures came to Mormonism's defense. I am afraid that that will continue. The media loves to attack bullies and defend the weak. No matter what they think about Mormons, most media elite are even more afraid of Evangelical intolerance. My fear is that our cause will be co-opted by the Evangelicals in the public eye. If the media is able to convince people that Mormonism is a victim in American society and that we should embrace and protect it, the battle is lost. If people think that we are just another organization in a polemic religious war, they will tune us out and accuse us of bigotry. We cannot afford to be marginalized like that. We must show that the Morg is the bully and that its members are the prey. We need to convince people that we are not polemicists. We have legitimate grievances. The powerful mainstream media will then pounce and make short work of the Morg's smiley face campaign.

I would like to ask the forum: how can we best convince the media that we are the victims and that the Morg is the bully?

Americans do not like bullies at all.

Our goal is that the public will see the Morg as something like Scientology. People rightly recognize that it is a bizarre cult/corporation that bullies its members and oversteps its bounds with non-members. We do not see the mainstream media jumping to their defense. In fact, opponents to Scientology are seen as heroes. This is what we must do to the Morg. When the Morg looks like Scientology, we too will be heroes. Many will be spared the hurt that we have suffered. Best of all, the Morg will never fulfill its grandiose dreams of power in America.

We have an important role in the year until election day. Let's take up the pen and tell the world the truth about the Morg.

Easy. Just mention all the parents and family members who have been shut out of their children's/siblings weddings.

Including me.

My 2 cents... You're forgetting the point of this board... It's a recovery board, not a take down the LDS church board. Your using a lot of terms like "we" and "our" as if you assume it's already the mission of everyone here to attack the church.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see the church fail, but I personally have no desire to confront the media over it. I will tell anyone around me who asks what I think of the church, but I'm not about to be a full time ex-mo missionary to tell people what they should or shouldn't believe. I just want to be done with it. I want to forget it and move on. But I can't because of what the church did to me, so I work on recovery.

The church is failing. Their numbers are shrinking daily. It may not happen overnight, it will eventually disappear into history.

An out right attack will have one of very few consequences... It will increase their persecution complex and make those TBM's only believe harder, do you think you could say anything about them that hasn't already been said? The very founder of the church was killed amongst some of the strongest and most organized persecution and it only made them stronger. That's how cults work. They just yell back, "see that's Satan working against us" it might even help them in the eyes of the public, since they could point their fingers back and say, "see how they mock us, the take things that are important to us and are disrespectful of us"

Then there is the actual damage that can be caused. Sure a lot of people would be fine if the church fell apart. But, a lot wouldn't. Their lives would be ripped out from under them and the would be suspect able to all kinds of danger. Which is why cult deprogramming is dangerous and done very carefully.

Better to provide resources when they are ready to question. Better to provide a safe harbor for them to come to when they are out so they can learn how to cope with the changes. Which is what this board is all about...

I'm sure many will disagree, and some may agree, either way, dont assume that when you speak of your plans that they are "our" plans or that your goals are "our" goals. I just left one organization that did that and I'm not about to join another, even to take down the first.

I don't think we can take down the church or deconvert its members. That is not my goal.

What we should be doing is getting the information out so that other people don't join the church without the other side of the story. We should try to call out the church when it is bullying non-members and we should stop it from getting any more power in this country.

You and everyone else here knows how damaging the Morg can be. That is why we need a recovery board.

However, we can't just focus on our own hurt and forget everyone else. I believe that the best way to recover from something like this is to help others and prevent them from having to suffer the way we have.

We can only do that by stopping the church's plan to become credible in the eyes of the world and by giving people the truth so that no more people are hoodwinked by missionaries into joining a damaging cult. I am not about destroying the church. I know a lot of good people who couldn't survive without it.

Rather, we should contain it. We should starve it of new prey and let it collapse under its own weight. That is what this plan should be all about.

We must help others in order to help ourselves.

"We must help others in order to help ourselves."

Every time I heard this from another member of the church while I was a TBM a piece of me withered away. This is no exaggeration. It is plain wrong. I wasted so much time trying to help others that I lost myself. Everyone, and I mean everyone, came to me for help and I myself had no where to turn. I was overwhelmed and crushed under the weight, but was constantly told that the only way to help myself and find happiness was to spend my time in the service of others. It pushed me into depression and sorrow because I could never do enough for everyone else to be happy myself. Only after getting out of the church did I finally understand what therapists and true friends were trying to tell me. Only after I have helped myself can I help another. It may sound selfish, but it's not. Everyone is told this simple principal every time they fly on a plane, if you pass out from asphyxiation you can not help those around you.

You make it sound as if the information isn't already out there. That "we" need to somehow take up arms and try to force the church to act stupidly. Most of the people on this board need support and understanding, not another battle to fight when they are either still fighting the one they are in or healing from the last one.

Besides, the church already is compared to things like Scientology, cultism and other non-accepted organizations. If you talk to almost anyone outside of Utah, they will either not know what a Mormon is, think of them as those quirky "nice" people that they don't really want to associate with or that they are an evil cult out to steal their children. None of those are really great impressions. They are trying to legitimize themselves, but it's not working. And, there will always be those who will fall prey to the church. There is no way to inoculate everyone against cult practices. This site and others like it do their best to provide more information, but there will always be those who fall into the trap. What "we" can do, is try to be here when they are ready to come out and find the truth.

Another site might be better suited to your "planning". I'm not an admin, nor would I ask you to leave, I think everyone should be able to post here and everyone's recovery takes a different path... But I personally wonder if topics like this are "good" for this board.

I agree. I am not voting for Romney for reasons other than religion. I have voted for other Mormons and have no desire to take down the church. I also do not vote or not vote for people based on their religion. I wouldn't mind seeing the church fail, but it isn't a big thing to me. Also, temples, garments, restricted weddings, or handshakes are not requirements for office.I don't care. If I agree with a Mormon's position and think he can stand up to church pressure and do his own thinking, I'd vote for him.

How damned decent of you, Finally Free! ;o))

In what this place is for. If this becomes too big a distraction or starts taking over too many resources (the reason WE DO NOT DO POLITICS in the first place we are going to have a problem. Depending on what you are shooting for the Foundation may be a better resource.

"Monkey wrenching" is something that should be done quietly and not talked about afterwards...

I need to hear that one myself, from time to time, but seriously, it's not a "conspiracy" that's driving the Romney campaign and the church PR machine as much as it's a powerful group of "like-minded fanatics" who don't need to consult with each other much to engage in their dissemblings....

"resist not evil" I think sometimes our resistence is like
barbells to a weight-lifter.
There are enough people who love to slug it out....maybe
Annagramy is right "just pass the popcorn and watch"!

What is needed is a very well produced movie that tells the history of the church in a very entertaining way. Entertainment value must be the focal point in order to draw attention and interest.

The church will never go down, may slip but never out.

So let me get this straight? You think that by taking down Romney you will take down the church?

I feel this is foolish.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2011 04:33PM by Susan I/S.

We need to focus on the hurt caused by the Mormon church on peole like us. We need to get that out, the stories, soundbites, when the media comes knocking. Look hurt, sound hurt, speak pain, because it is REAL. We'll get sympathy, the church will be the bully and we will look like what we are...the victims.

But remember, this moment of sympathy will last for about "15 minutes", so make it count.

Just imagine if Romney becomes president or gets to a run-off. Non-members that could not care less about the church would all of a sudden be interested in learning more about it.

This is the chance many of us have been waiting for. We just need to tell ROmney's opposition to avoid the stupid stuff like Jesus and Satan are brothers and get the biggies out there - BofA, blacks and the priesthood, temple ordinances and masonry, BOM historical problems, etc.

I am sure one of the well-funded members of the huge opposition of Romney would be interested in hearing about the far more serious problems of this church and how crazy it is to have Commander-in-Chief be so gullible as to accept these things as fact.

Letters to the editor, youtube videos, TV appearances, websites, etc. can all be used to get the word out.

I'm with you Captain Moroni.

All of the religions have probablems...Thomas Paine tought us
that.. it isn't so much the mythology and made up stuff that counts.. it's the LOYLALTY to the team! Betrayal runs very
deep in the human psyche...It is a huge factor!

Look at Hennry Iring when confronted with evidence about the
BoA, he said "I don't care if the papyrus is a bill of sale
for goods floating up the Nile" what Joseph Smith gave us..
yada yada yada..

We can fight all we want but most people simply believe what
want to belive..

H. IRING said THAT ?!

I'd LOVE to have it in my file of references/citations...!

True that on the PR stuff.

I talked to a politically connected nevermo on the East Coast. She had only been to the Visitor's Center in SLC, and that's all she knew about Mormonism. What were the big takeaways from that on what Mormonism was about?

1. JESUS CHRIST
2. FAMILY

Mormons are constantly writing reasonable sounding op-eds in the Washington Post. They also are banging the bigotry/hate button on anyone who is critical of them.

The Morg PR machine is geared up for this thing, but truth is still their greatest enemy.

There were some basic books that were in LDS homes many years ago. One was A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by Legrand Richards. The first page said something that might be good to challenge Mormons with now.

"It has been said that one of our nationally prominent commentators once made the statement over the radio that he had been asked what message could be broadcast to the world that would be considered more important than any other. After giving the matter much thought and consideration he came to the conclusion that to be able to announce that a man who had lived upon the earth, had died, and had returned again with a message from God would be the most important message that could be broadcast to the world. This being true the Latter-day Saints have the most important message for the world today. In the western part of the state of New York in 1936 they erected a monument upon the Hill Cumorah to such a person, Moroni, a prophet of God, who lived upon the American continent four hundred years after Christ. This is the only such monument in the world today."

I'm curious how Romney or Huntsman would answer this question: "Do you believe in a person who lived in America before Christ, died, and came back in the 1800s?"

But I felt like responding again, and because I FELT like it, I KNEW it was the right thing to do.

I'm not one to back down from a fight, but I don't really see "this" as something that an army needs to be "mustered."

I think we do plenty of damage to the Morg without the same kind of dollars simply because we are being honest and genuine.

We aren't trying to manipulate people.

I think that when people feel manipulated is when they get turned off to the message the fastest.

When people are curious about Mormonism and they hear our stories and see the information that has been gathered on the church, they respond quite well.

But I don't think people will respond in a way that 'helps' our cause when they feel that we are out to "get" the church. Or out to "get" a politician.

So, I think the best thing is for exmos to just do what they feel is important to them.

If certain exmos want to confront the articles from WaPo, then good for them.

I prefer to slam Facebook. And I'll do it in my own way. I don't really care if my "tone" is off putting to some.

It's supposed to be.

I am a god. That MEANS that I MUST be blasphemous.

I'm not censuring that. Because my skill set is important to people too.

Just as people need the intellectual information to solidify why they are having doubts, they also need to know that the church isn't sacred.

It's silly.

It can and should be laughed at.

Some people call that "mocking" and "disrespectful," and I say these people have a horrible double standard issue.

That a church can run around and call people all sorts of names, but NO ONE is allowed to turn around and say, "Guess what Mr. Emporer. You have no clothes and a tiny dingaling. I can see it. Now stop calling me evil."

LDS INC is already screwing itself, with Romney.

LDS INC is selling itself as the greatest kettle of fish in the world, but the problem for them is there is big stinking rotten mass of crap in the bottom of the LDS INC kettle ala they are not the greatest thing on earth.

most Americans are not as dumb as MORmONS. That is why most Americans have not become MORmONS. But LDS Inc is counting on being able to treat everyone like MORmONS, the same way they treat their MORmON members.THat is not a formula for success.

Guess what the public reaction is going to be when they are served up a bowl out of LDS INCs kettle of rotten fish and the stomach cramps start up. guess where it goes from there!