Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Michaelm ( )
Date: November 07, 2011 09:48AM

This study found that when people first move into a new territory their fertility rate increases. They end up leaving a larger genetic marker. If a real Lehi and co. had moved from the Middle East to America it should have been more likely to find DNA proof for the Book of Mormon . What excuses will apologists give now?

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/244191/20111107/selective-advantage-edge-migration-wave.htm

"In this research the descending lineages of all couples married in the Charlevoix-Saguenay Lac St-Jean region between 1686 and 1960 were analyzed. This genealogy comprises more than 1 million individuals."

"We find that families who are at the forefront of a range expansion into new territories had greater reproductive success. In other words, that they had more children, and more children who also had children," Labuda explained. "As a result, these families made a higher genetic contribution to the contemporary population than those who remained behind in what we call the range core, as opposed to the wave front."

http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2011/1103sp_moreau.shtml

“The wave front is a moving edge,” explained Laurent Excoffier, a corresponding author of the report. “This wave front is always at the periphery of the range. So individuals begin by colonizing a given region, which becomes the wave front by definition. Then, people send migrants toward new regions, which become the wave front in turn…and when a given territory has been fully settled, the wave front disappears since there is no wave of advance anymore.”

"Since this increased reproductive success only seems to occur on the wave front, the researchers argue that fertility is a trait that can rapidly evolve during range expansion, passing from one generation to the next."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: alex71ut ( )
Date: November 07, 2011 01:55PM

The article says: "This genealogy comprises more than 1 million individuals."

They will say: "Lets do their temple work."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: nebularry ( )
Date: November 07, 2011 02:02PM

Fascinating stuff! Thanks for the links and the insight. No doubt the apologists will find a way to weasel around this. The TBMs will think it's all the devil's work and ignore it. And we need no further evidence to know Mormonism is bogus. I love it!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: labdork ( )
Date: November 08, 2011 02:20AM

Isn't one of the arguments in Lyndon Lamborn's book that according to "normal" population growth statistics there couldn't be as many people in the BOM as it describes? This might explain how they achieved the populace in the BOM. Hell.... the BOM may even be TRUE!!!!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Michaelm ( )
Date: November 08, 2011 06:04AM

A couple of things to consider though. The fertility rate increases initially but levels off again after the settled regions are no longer on the wave front. Lamborn's argument still has merit, especially over a longer time interval because the increased fertility rate does not last.

The increased fertility does leave a higher genetic contribution but this has not been found from alleged BoM people. It is not found in living populations or in pre-Columbian graves. Apologists have argued that since many of the DNA studies have used the female ancestry (mtDNA) and no Middle Eastern haplotypes have been found, perhaps they were marrying women that were already there.

But from this study, the Book of Mormon women who were in the initial wave fronts would have contributed more DNA because of their increased fertility and it should be shown by a majority of people being related to an initial group going back to the areas first settled.

"The majority of people currently living in the Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean region of Quebec are related to ancestors who lived on or close to the wave front of colonization."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: labdork ( )
Date: November 08, 2011 11:05AM

Uh..... I knew that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: November 08, 2011 11:55AM

I mean the original inhabitants who were there left the largest genetic imprint; isn't that one obvious?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Michaelm ( )
Date: November 08, 2011 12:05PM

To which I would reply, this new study was able to follow a genetic imprint from colonizers who really did migrate into a population of original inhabitants in the Quebec region. Show me any indications of Middle Eastern colonizers into a population of Meso-American original inhabitants.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: November 08, 2011 12:15PM

If I understand correctly, I think the point that Hoggle is making that may be relevant is that if the incoming small group at the frontier increases, not decreases, it should give more weight to finding Lehite DNA than the other way.

However, this result is based on a single migration story. Do others in other regions show similar trends?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Michaelm ( )
Date: November 08, 2011 12:29PM

Here is a study in another part of the world about migrations coming into a region. The findings in this recent Quebec study that make it unique are the indiciations of fertility initially increasing.

Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/pdf/AJHGv80p759.pdf

Such a genetic contribution has been extensively diluted by admixture, but it appears that there are still locations in Tuscany, such as Murlo, where traces of its arrival are easily detectable.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: November 08, 2011 12:39PM

This is interesting. A cursory read shows the opposite issue from the BoM claims. We have the group with no written history, and look for their origin (to determine if it matches scant oral legend/claims). The Mos have a hypothesized claim of a group and its alleged written history, but cannot find the actual physiological/anthropological traces of it.

The more you look at the Mo claims, the more it matches the patterns of mythology from every angle.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 ********  ********  ********   *******   ******** 
    **        **     **    **  **     **     **    
    **        **         **    **            **    
    **        **        **     ********      **    
    **        **       **      **     **     **    
    **        **       **      **     **     **    
    **        **       **       *******      **