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Posted by: lulu ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 03:15AM

People across the earth believe in the Book of Mormon.

1. Why do you think there has been the belief that a teen-age boy with almost no education was able to produce the Book of Mormon.

2. If you have an answer to question 1, do you have any evidence (preferrably irrefutable) to support your answer?

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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 03:19AM

Virtually nobody, relatively speaking, believes in the book of mormon.

How could anyone? That's what I've been trying to figure out.

And I've never heard of an A-Mormon, who just lacks belief (though I'm sure it will be explained to me they exist). To the contrary, most anyone who has looked into the issue affirmatively states that the evidence overwhelmingly shows it to be false. (See the "What made you a non-believer" thread going on here).

(I'll accept your premise)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2011 03:20AM by thingsithink.

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Posted by: lulu ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 03:20AM


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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 03:28AM

Please define "produce."

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Posted by: lulu ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 03:39AM


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Posted by: thingsithink ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 04:04AM

Sorry, but I have to ask you to define "bring" since that gets into the how - but I'll take a crack anyways.


Why I think people believe JS, a man of limited education, brought it into existence?

There is a book of mormon.

There was a Joseph Smith.

He claimed to have brought it into existence (whatever that means).

People accepted his claim without empirical proof (except perhaps for some who worked with him).

Evidence?

I've seen a book of mormon. I've heard many accounts that Joseph Smith existed, which I can't prove but accept.

I've read that he claimed to have brought it into existence. I accept the accounts that he claimed to have brought it into existence.

I conclude that people accepted his claim without empirical proof because I am unaware of empirical proof that he produced it. And I conclude people accepted his claim because they have said they do.



How he brought it into existence is another story which you know too well - and I don't think relates to your question. Many people believe he brought it into existence. Some think he wrote it, some that he wrote it with help, some that it was plagiarized, some that it came from god.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2011 04:08AM by thingsithink.

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 06:13AM

thingsithink has it right.

The Book of Mormon exists. Joseph's claim has no *direct* evidence for or against.

That leaves each person asking the question about the BoM origin to take one of the following logic paths.

1. Joseph Smith, an underdog presented in the kindest way, produced a "wonderful" theory about life which if true fulfills every person's wildest dream of living forever as an all powerful, all knowing being with lots and lots of sex. Most of us would delude ourselves to believe this for what it gives us.

2. The devil is in the details: the claims in the BoM do not match the evidence science brings. Despite our wishes of being all powerful, we choose to acknowledge it as fiction. It doesn't really matter if Joe wrote it, or Rigdon/Spalding/Cowdery/?. It is not true.

There is no DIRECT evidence to support either of these. The evidence people accept in (1) is testimony of the spirit and witnesses claiming to have seen direct evidence. This group accepts the lack of direct evidence as a requirement from God to have faith.

The evidence people accept in (2) is that claims of the BoM have been specifically contradicted by evidence of observation in archaeology, linguistics, DNA science, anthropology, metallurgy, maritime studies, etc. Likewise, close examination of Joe and his witnesses provide reasonable doubt about their integrity. This group realizes the direct evidence that would contradict Joe's supernatural claims was destroyed by the conspirators, and like detectives determining criminal evidence, all we can find are circumstantial, indirect evidence. It's enough to convict in court, and more than enough to provide reasonable doubt.

You see, the unbelievers are not on trial here. The Mormon claims have the burden of proof. They are the crazy claims against the status-quo. All the masses need is plausible deniability about Joe's claims to not be convicted by his god's judgement for not believing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2011 06:26AM by Jesus Smith.

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Posted by: Richard Foxe ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 05:10AM

There are dozens, probably hundreds of other 19th-century examples of this kind of spiritualist/mediumistic writing. If you accept only a Flatland our-eyes-see-everything-that-is type of cosmology, this explanation is not for you. However, it's important to note that the subtle sources of such dictated writings are seldom what they claim to be or masquerade as, like gods or angels or beings from other systems or the ghost of Shakespeare or whomever. This accounts for the often banal intellectual and literary quality of such productions.

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Posted by: luckychucky ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 05:40AM

If you look at the dates he was 25 years old. Hardly a teenage boy.

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Posted by: luckychucky ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 05:47AM

The teenage boy argument is a red herring. Smith was born in 1805 and the BofM was published id 1830. The math is easy.The evidence is common knowledge but if you must know look here in the first sentence, to answer question #2; The next pagee nails shut the cofin with the morgs own sourses. http://josephsmith.net/josephsmith/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f27f982b9ab42010VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD&locale=0

http://lds.org/churchhistory/presidents/controllers/potcController.jsp?leader=1&topic=events



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2011 05:56AM by luckychucky.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:52PM

Two missionaries knocked at my door. When I told them I didn't buy the BOM they asked "how could a 14 year old boy write such a book."

I asked, "How old was Joseph Smith when the Book of Mormon was published?" He hemmed and hawed and said he didn't know, he guessed "19?"

Technically, by the way, I don't think the "teenage" in this context is a "red herring," I think it's a "lie." A red herring is something that's true but not really relevant.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 10:13AM

All of these happen on a regular basis throughout the world. Even teenagers write books, and JS was no teenager at the time. And the book is not that good, especially the 1830 version.

A better question is how could it be an account of native peoples of the Americas when it so poorly fits the mountains of evidence we have about the native peoples? About the only thing it got right was that there were in fact people in the Americas. That's better than JS did when describing the moon, but still, not that impressive.

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Posted by: RAG ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 10:25AM

You'd think a Supreme Being could do a better job.

The belief is there because it makes the book more "miraculous" and therefore authoritative. Then you can use the book to get what you want from other people. Simple.

Same motivation applies to:

Quran
The Oasphe
Dianetics
The Urantia Book
...and multitudes of others:


5 List of sacred texts of various religions 5.1 Ancient Greece
5.2 Asatru
5.3 Atenism
5.4 Ayyavazhi
5.5 Bahá'í Faith
5.6 Bön
5.7 Buddhism
5.8 Cheondoism
5.9 Christianity
5.10 Confucianism
5.11 Discordianism
5.12 Druze
5.13 Ancient Egyptian religion
5.14 Etruscan religion
5.15 Hermeticism
5.16 Hinduism
5.17 Islam
5.18 Jainism
5.19 Judaism
5.20 LaVeyan Satanism
5.21 Lingayatism
5.22 Mandaeanism
5.23 Manichaeism
5.24 Meher Baba
5.25 New Age religions
5.26 Orphism
5.27 Rastafari movement
5.28 Ravidassia
5.29 Samaritanism
5.30 Scientology
5.31 Shinto
5.32 Sikhism
5.33 Spiritism
5.34 Sumerian
5.35 Swedenborgianism
5.36 Taoism
5.37 Tenrikyo
5.38 Thelema
5.39 Unification Church
5.40 Wicca
5.41 Yazidi
5.42 Zoroastrianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text

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Posted by: Michaelm ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 10:38AM

Also the Sacred Books of the East make an interesting comparison to the Book of Mormon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Books_of_the_East

http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/index.htm

Individual volumes of the 50 volume set can be found at google book and at archive.org.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 11:36AM

"then you can use the book to get what you want from other people"

Nailed it!

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:58PM

This is a good question. Specially because the writers of the books of the Bible didn't think God produced it. They thought THEY produced it.

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Posted by: Steve ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 10:29AM

So here are some more relevant questions can you:

1. Write a history of ancient America covering a period of from 2200 B.C.E. to 400 A.D.? Why ancient America? Because that’s what the Book of Mormon claims to be about silly.

2. You must start telling tales that resemble this book to your family at least ten years before you write it.

3. You must be primarily self-educated. If you are formally educated, it may or may not make it more difficult to write, that will obviously depend on your individual “education,” but don’t worry about learning how to spell, since . . .

4. You must include at least 3000 grammatical and spelling errors, even if you use a secretary to transcribe your dictation. Now this is going to be really hard, because where are you going to find such an ignorant secretary. Good luck on that one.

5. Your “history” must be 531 pages long, and must use the phrase “and it came to pass” 3,856 times.

6. You must come up with a good explanation as to why filler such as “and it came to pass” would be so frequently repeated if your history is supposed to have come from gold plates where space was at a premium.

7. Once your book is published you are only allowed to change it 3500 times for grammatical and spelling errors and 500 times for doctrinal, historical or other substantive inconsistencies.

8. Your “history” must replace the actual millions of inhabitants of the ancient Americas during this time period with fictitious nations, including one nation founded by refugees from the mythical tower of Babylon who came to the Americas on a giant barrel-like barge with holes in the top and the bottom (don’t ask) of the barge and two other nations founded by “jews” who know next to nothing about Jewish dietary or religious practices.

9. You must describe the inhabitants of America and their religious, economic, political and social and cultural institutions in such way that they don’t in any way represent the religious, political, social and cultural institutions of the actual inhabitants of ancient America. Even make up some names of coins that were never used by the actual inhabitants of America. Throw in some animals and crops that are only in the Americas post-Columbus and make up some funny names of non-existent animals too, like cureloms.

10. Make sure you plagiarize from more than one section of the bible, and from various other sources, so that your claim that many ancient authors contributed to the book can be trumpeted by apologists.

11. Make up a story about a dead guy coming to America and killing millions of inhabitants and burying cities in the ocean and under the earth. Call him Nosferatu or Lestat. No just kidding — you must actually call him Jesus.

12. Claim that your inconsistent and grammatically awkward prose (except for the plagiarized parts which are somewhat better written) is not fiction, but a true and sacred history.

13. Include in your book 54 chapters dealing with wars that bear no resemblance to the actual wars that took place in the ancient Americas. Make sure that at least some of these wars include the nonsensical accounts of million man armies. Ignore the problems associated with the logistical support for such a large army. Also include million men armies fighting to the last man and their bones and steel weapons disappearing from the face of the earth. Include 21 historical chapters which bear no resemblance to actual history, try and include some inconsistencies here too, like people reappearing in the narrative after they have already died.

14. You must include 55 chapters on visions and prophesies. At least one of the “visions” must be an almost verbatim recital of a dream that some member of your family, preferably your father, told to you as a boy. Some of the prophesies must be plagiarized directly from the bible, but others must “prophesy” about things that have already happened between the time of the supposed prophesy and the present, so that you can show how accurate the “prophecies” of your book are. Except for the “prophecies” about events that have already taken place, which must be laden with details, all prophecies should be very vague. Never do anything stupid like prophesy that Christ will come in 1891, the civil war would start in the 1830′s or that people live on the moon and dress like Quakers, that would be quite a problem for you.

15. Included in your narrative will be bogus modes of travel that were never used in ancient America, bogus descriptions of clothing and clothing materials that were never used in ancient America, bogus descriptions of crops that never existed in ancient America and bogus types of government as well.

16. You must invent 280 names. Well, not really invent, you can take some from the bible, some from the apocrypha, some from maps, etc. Some should be inside jokes (Moron, Ether), some should be silly (anti-nephi-lehite, curelom), some should so forgettable that you refer to them obliquely (brother of jared) and some should come from the occult practices you were taught by your parents (Laman).

17. Every objective scholar who looks at your work and examines its claims to be a history of the ancient Americas must denounce it as a fraud. (OK, this one was easy, but you deserve a break after so many hard ones in a row.)

18. Claim that your book is the word of God. Then start a religion with doctrines contrary to the book. (Don’t worry, this is actually much easier than it sounds.)

19. Throw in all kinds of absurd, impossible and contradictory statements. (If you need help with this see Ether 15:31, Mosiah 21:28 and 2 Nephi 19:1 for some examples to get you started.)

20. No one but you or the members of the religion you founded must believe your claims that the book is of divine origin. To cover for the fact that you cannot produce the gold plates, make up a story about the gold plates upon which the record came being “taken up into heaven” and get 11 people who are related to you and/or with a financial interest in your book to say that they saw the plates before they disapperared. Make sure that you refer to the dead guy that takes the plates back “to heaven” by at least two different names.

21. Get four dishonest and shifty characters to claim that they too had an magical dead guy come down from “heaven” to “testify” to them about your book. Each of these witnesses must have a financial stake in the book.

22. Make sure that something in your book fulfills some vague biblical prophesy. (And yes, I know vague and biblical prophesy are redundant and repetitive.)

23. Thousands of men with a vested financial interest in the religion you founded, including many who are criminals and who lie under oath to congress, must accept your book (and your teachings that contradict the book) for over 100 years. In fact, you must make sure that every man who leads your church for the first 100 years must be a criminal. Make sure that you commit every one of the following crimes: treason, sedition, murder, perjury, conspiracy to commit murder, bigamy, statutory rape, fraud, conterfeiting, illegal banking, assault, and bribery. Send some of your followers on missions and have sex with their wives while they are away too. Make sure that every man that leads your church for the next 100 years commits at least 3 of the above crimes.

24. Since your book is filled with inconsistencies which easily demonstrate it as fraudulent, you must include an appeal to magical thinking at the end of the book, or no one will follow you.

25. You’ve got to then get a bunch of believers in your fraudulent history to, a few of them glady, but most of them under some form of coercion, give up two years of their life to con others into beleiving your bogus history. Have sex with some of their wives while they are away. Call this sex “celestial marriage.”

26. Some of these salesmen must even pay their own way. Now some of them will, over the course of these two years, come to the realization that your book is a fraud, but over half of them must stay in your church.

27. You must derive your financial riches from the book and the religion which you found upon its teachings (and no we must not forget about the doctrines that contradict the teachings of the book). Despite making several fortunes over the course of your life by conning the believers of your book out of their hard earned money, you will waste it all and flee at least two states due to your financial improprieties and declare bankruptcy at least once. And along the same financial vein, you must also steal money from your foster daughters. And while you’re at it, have sex with some of them too.

28. When your financial cons and sexual scandals cause problems for your family and followers, you must blame everything on religious persecution and leave town. You must ingraine this into your followers so that they carry this false persecution complex with them unto the third and the fourth generations. You must teach all the leaders of your movement to have sex with the wives and the daughters of those with lower callings in your church. You must have sex with 14 year old girls and cause that any follower of yours that does not want to have sex with 14 year old girls to be removed from any leadership position in your church. (Yes David Koresh did this too, but he never wrote a book and he’s not about to write one now is he?)

29. Your book must result in a people whose unlawful practices will be referred to as barbaric by both the Congress and the Supreme Court of the United States of America.. (If you live somewhere other than the US, similar organizations of the country where you live will suffice) You must include in your religion covenants that require your people to blindly obey orders to murder non-members of your cult. Your book must result in a people that will kill and steal from any who dare visit territory controlled by your followers. Your people must murder at least 20 children in cold blood.

30. Start right now, and spend a year writing the first draft of this book. Then complete the second draft in three months, BUT YOUR SECOND DRAFT MUST BE WRITTEN WITHOUT REFERENCE TO THE FIRST DRAFT. Before starting on the second draft, you must let the only copy of the first draft go to someone who does not believe you saw god, or that you saw any dead guys, or that dead guys gave you any gold plates. Then come up with a good explanation as to why, since the plates were supposedly translated by the power of god, god didn’t just help you write the same words over again.

31. Then get someone in the pay of the religion you founded to write a dishonest “challenge” to “prove” your book isn’t fiction (even though it is). THEN, get someone else to spend a couple of hours coming up with a silly parody showing what a dishonest hack the author of the first challenge was.

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Posted by: Thread Killer ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 10:56AM

Opus Magnus, Steve!

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Posted by: RAG ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 11:00AM


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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 02:22PM

But MY book has lots of swearing and sex jokes!

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Posted by: braq ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 10:35AM

A. God appeared to Joey (God has never appeared, in all his glory, to anyone) and then an angel(s) appeared and then he found gold plates and then he became the spokesperson on earth for God and, therefore, mo'ism is true

or

B. He made it all up (I am in the Spaulding/Rigdon camp)

Easy choices.

Best to all,

Braq

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 10:37AM

The BoM was most likely cobbled together by Smith, Cowdery and Rigdon, with assistance from a handful of others. In fact, it's far more likely that the BoM and the establishment of the church were products of a conspiracy than the product of supernatural events. As mentioned above, why is the BoM any more likely to be authentic than any of the world's other holy books?

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Posted by: JoD3:360 ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 11:00AM

http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=13145

More than any other person, Martin Harris seems to have been responsible for the fact that Joseph's concept of the golden plates [p.275] came to have a religious content. It is clear from other sources that Harris did not view the golden bible with the eye of the spirit exclusively; he got the village silversmith to give him an estimate of the value of the plates, taking as a basis Joseph's account of their dimensions;58 and he listened raptly when Joseph's mother expatiated on the profits the work might bring, not merely from sales of the translation to be published by Joseph, but from public exhibition of the plates, the price of admission to be twenty-five cents.59 To be enriched for doing the work of the Lord suited the inclination of Harris exactly.

Nevertheless, the fact that the book was the work of God, that he, Martin Harris, was an instrument in the hands of the Lord, was the consideration which moved him most powerfully.

In this fact Joseph could find matter for meditation. Men could be moved by their religious beliefs as by no other means, for religious faith dignified and enobled what it touched.

A man who gave him five dollars to search out in his peepstone the whereabouts of a lost cow was discontent and wanted his money back if the cow could not be found. A man who gave him fifty dollars to do the work of the Lord rejoiced in his soul over his own generosity and counted the money well spent.

Joseph seems to have been quick to see the implication of this truth, and ordered his life accordingly. Not folk magic but religion should henceforth be his sphere, his plates of gold found to comprise, in all truth, a golden bible.

See footnote:
http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=13145#n-57

See also:
http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=13145#n-15

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Posted by: RAG ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 02:29PM

...according to Lucy Mack Smith, about the "original inhabitants". So he had been thinking about it for some time.

He heard about the Tree of Life dream from his father and incorporated that.

Other sources: newspaper articles, public lectures, camp meetings of other religious groups, the Bible, possibly other books, possibly other co-authors.

We do know that he could write in the Biblical voice, from what he produced for the Book of Abraham and the Doctrine and Covenants. Those documents had little to do with Harris or Rigdon, and in the D&C those two often caught hell. So I think he could have had quite a bit to do with the authorship.

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:03PM

JS didn't want to be a farmer. And he figured out a way to make that happen.

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Posted by: theimmortalironfist ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 02:10PM

I'm sorry, but it's really easy, when you do the research, to explain that. I would say that "View of the Hebrews" and "Manuscript Found" were the fundamental skeleton of what would become the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith would have had to do is read that, add passages from Isaiah and other parts of the Bible, and follow the natural passage of time of your fictional characters.

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Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 02:28PM

The question is flawed. Joseph Smith was 23 when he "translated" the Book of Mormon. There was nothing "teen-age" about him. He also was the son of a school-teacher, and liked to read a lot. Lastly, most people believe that Joseph Smith only had a small part in "writing" the Book of Mormon. "I'm gonna insert my own story in between this chapter that Solomon Spaulding wrote and this one that Sidney Rigon wrote. Oliver, do you have any suggestions?"

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Posted by: dthenonreligious ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 02:37PM


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Posted by: badseed ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 03:07PM

Joseph was not a boy when the BoM was published. He was 22 or when he claimed to get the plates and pushing 25 when it was published.

While Joseph did not receive a lot of formal education he was not the illiterate rube he is made out to be by believers. Both Hyrum and his father worked at times as school teachers and it is likely that books and learning were part of the Smith home. Also appears that Joseph attended school in 1825 while in Bainbridge, NY while working for as a treasure digger/scryer for Josiah Stowell. He 19-20 at this time.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 03:18PM

badseed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While Joseph did not receive a lot of formal
> education he was not the illiterate rube he is
> made out to be by believers. Both Hyrum and his
> father worked at times as school teachers and it
> is likely that books and learning were part of the
> Smith home. Also appears that Joseph attended
> school in 1825 while in Bainbridge, NY while
> working for as a treasure digger/scryer for Josiah
> Stowell. He 19-20 at this time.

Speaking of "formal education" someone who was a contemporary of Joseph Smith had a total of nine months of "formal education"--Abraham Lincoln.

We watch TV, listen to CD's, and go to Movies. For ENTERTAINMENT they read books and attended lectures and sermons. I find it very easy to believe that much of the doctrinal part of the BOM was inspired by (if not lifted whole cloth from) sermons that were given during the revival mania that swept Northwestern New York in 1824-25. This is the one that best fits JS's later description of a revival that he dates to 1820 in his later (1838 to be exact) recounting of the "First Vision."

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Posted by: mothermayeye ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 04:17PM

1. Good question! I'd like feedback- for or against my following opinion

I was BIC but even since my early teens, I've challenged the idea that- if people want to believe JS found some special lost 'testaments' of ancient people, fine! BUT... what seemed obvious to me, was how people believed the accounts of such events are ACCURATE when they are just ONE persons recollection of them. These TBM take these individual 'journal' writings (as I call them) as God's words without taking into consideration that there are always two+ sides to a story. What about the millions of other events they conveniently didn't write about or that we KNOW have been left out of the KJV of the Bible. Any body who writes a book or even in a journal only tells what they want the reader to know... isn't that common sense? You'd think :-/

Ex: If you and me both witnessed an event, say the day of 911, then we both write about that day and it's events... they are going to be two totally different accounts of the same day/event. So, (assuming for a second that the authors of BoM & Bible stories are real & they accurately wrote about their recollection of the events/experiences) why do so many people believe the BoM & Bible stories are accurate depictions of how all other witnesses would have recalled them? THEY WOULDN'T!! UGH! The stories in the BoM and Bible 'might' be journal accounts written by these scripture people, BUT AT MOST they are ONLY the writers account of them! Anyone feelin' me on this?

If some of the town folk or other family members wrote about Noah building his special ark to get rid of naughtiness, it would be a totally different (and probably funny) story, right? hee hee.

So, JS was smart when he came up with the "God told me NONE of the religions were true" story because what better way to discredit all other religions and start your own! lol Not to mention the first in his plan to put doubt in everyone's head and start the brainwashing & the idea of coming up with his own lil' bible to support his new religion that also goes along with the already accepted bible.
*Even IF he really DID find these lost writings by these BoM characters, they are STILL only the accounts of the people that wrote them and not necessarily the most accurate account of what actually happened! Of course Nephi is going to say the Lord told him to kill Laban so he could get his families riches back, cuz that is what he had to tell daddy when he got back to justify his actions. Laman and Lemuel's stories would certainly tell a different story but those sinners stories were (conveniently) left out of the book of God. HAHA!

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