But I am curious as to what the most likely level within the church hierarchy that a GA will realize that the whole thing is a big ol' sham..

So, take a guy that is serving as Mission Pres somewhere...it's very likely the guy actually believes the church is true.

Now let's say this guy is picked to be in the 1st Quorum of the 70.

Do any of you find it possible/likely/unlikely/ etc... that this guy is going to figure out the church is false?

If you are in the camp that thinks he still WON'T find out,...then let's say he gets picked to be Apostle... now what?

In other words, at some,...it is just isn't reasonable (IMHO) that the course a man takes to Quorum of the 12 in the LDS church doesn't involve at some point or another a realization that it's not true....

Now, if there are those that agree with me on that; here is another question.

Is it possible that the powers that be may actually try to seek out those who they know DON'T believe it's true to be in the Quorum of the 12?

I mean, wouldn't it be easier to keep up appearances if there is some dude in the Quorum of the 70 who is just in it for the power (and knows it's all bunk) and pick THAT guy to be Apostle?

I mean, that way...you know the guy won't rock the boat.

Really curious what people may have to say about this...

I think it's rare even among the Q-12 (but definitely exists - Hinckley being one example). I'm pretty sure Oaks and Holland buy into it all.

I think the higher you go, the more time is required for you to dedicate. The busier you are, the less time you have to question. Same philosophy works all the way down. Hinckley probably realized it was all a sham every time he prayed and still struggled to feel the spirit, much less see even one single vision. But he had too much to do to examine the problem any further.

Hinckley is an interesting case and to be honest, one of the guys I find to be MOST unlikely to not know flat out it's a fraud..

Hinckley was directly involved in the Hoffman cover up as well as putting some PR spin on the Book of Abraham fiasco...

I hear what you are saying.. never under estimate the power of self delusion...but if one of you're primary tasks is to flat out cover up the biggest controversies that the church gets wrapped up in...

I mean, dude... you've got to know!

I'd forgotten about the Hoffman stuff. Yeah, the evidence definitely fits. He knew.

"Are you a prophet?" "The people sustain me as such."

Hell, I could get a temple recommend if I answered the stake president like that!

I think belief involves vacilating and wishful thinking.

Try to find the old movies about Marjo or Elmer Gantry. They believed their own hype at times and I think many TBM mormons are working at convincing themselves as much as anyone when they lie about their testimonies.

I think anyone with a good imagination can induce inklings of visions and feelings of bosom burning.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2012 11:53AM by Cheryl.

reliable facts, I bet. Not so. Never has been, never will be.
Mormonism is like almost all other religions which have a deity and are anciet: it's a God Myth. It's also based on the savior concept (not all religions have a savior) and some kind of life after this one- most do.

The beauty of religion is how they are able to create metaphysical, supernatural, visionary claims that are believed!
That is also ancient.

The power of the religious belief is faith. Faith overrides everything else.

Religious beliefs in a deity are ancient and so prevalent some have concluded there is a God Part of the Brain.

Believers are not interested in contrary factual information. Their belief is solidified by faith in the claims. Visionary claims in this case, supersede any other kind of claim. Remember, there is no evidence of any ancient records (see my post on finding the Nephite Record) from their own original history books:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,380839,380839#msg-380839

The greatest faith producing evidence initially is the "Spiritual Eye" claim of seeing those golden plates. Of course, there was nothing to see, but the claim still stands, even if all those who did "see" them can't agree on the size, shape, weight, etc.

This is one of the most amazing things about religious faith: the power of the visionary experience or spiritual eye experience. It is the core to solidifying the faith based beliefs.

So the upshot:generally, there is no need to challenge anything that is faith based as far as the believer is concerned.

Besides, Mormonism is a long established (all be it small) religion that is American based (part of the history), with it's own heritage and culture. It is part of the landscape. It is not going away.

While some may leave, and find it wanting in what they want to believe in, those that believe by faith generally won't leave.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2012 12:47PM by SusieQ#1.

What is faith really, but stubbornness to accept better information? Sounds like promoters of faith have the same pride issues that they often try to denounce.

Are you saying that you ethat ALL 15 guys in the Quorum of the 12 and First Presidency actually believe they are truly Apostles?

You bring up some great points, but have you not considered how motivating pure power can be?

What difference does it make, I'm sure some would ask... if it's true or not? If I'm in charge of it, I have the ability to tell a lot of people what to do...

Having millions of people speak about you in hushed and reverent tones would be an intoxicating enough experience; that letting it go for any reason is just not an option

...that it's an intoxicating feeling to think that God has selected ME, out of everyone else, to be his one and only Prophet on the earth. How could it NOT be true, when I am the one selected? I think an inner feeling along these lines would go a long way toward subconsciously suppressing any doubts.

I think they all know the church is bullsh!t,

Cognitive Dissonance is a "Marvelous Work and a Wonder".

Keep in mind that each one of tne 15 is revered by their family and friends and also isolated from the rest of the world and surrounded by people who adorate them. They have power and prestige and have invested way too much to turn back now.
For an apostle to turn it would be like a US president turning on his country.

What needs to happen is for all the protection removed, have followers that directly question or criticize, have a few things go wrong so they are exposed. Basically by turning up the heat you would see a few drop like flies.

It would be like going back to the original church where some of the highest authorities aposticized. Right now there is not enough pressure for them to do it.

Joseph Smith, Jr believed in Joseph Smith, Jr. If he had really believed in a Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ and Holy Ghost he would have never perpetrated the hoax that he did.

He was a sociopath...posessed of a complete absence of conscience.

As for those that follow in his footsteps...if it waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is probably a duck!