About three years ago I was in a bishopric meeting. We were discussing this young couple that had moved into the ward. The wife was BIC. The husband had converted to marry her.

The young couple was from Utah. The woman's parents had been in contact with our Bishop, imploring him to keep tabs on their daughter. Evidently the parents knew things weren't going perfectly in terms of the couple's relationship to the church. In fact I hadn't seen the couple in church yet.

The Bishop said he'd been to visit them and that while the young woman seemed to still have a testimony, the young man had "gone back to what he was." The young man was leading his new wife out of the church. The Bishop's take on it was that the young husband was contemptibly reverting back to his pre-Mormon ways.

I keep remembering that scene, the Bishop's condescension, patronizing anyone who would have the gall, the temerity to walk away from Mormonism and to seek out what he or she had been before, i.e., to remain true to themselves, to be the individuals they were prior to Mormonism swallowing them up. What does that say about Mormons' views of non-Mormons? Maybe a Mormon viscerally dislikes the idea that a mere gentile can steal one of them away from her precious LDS heritage?

For me it was like the Bishop saying that what I had been before becoming a Mormon didn't count--that at most whatever experiences and life and identity I had had prior to baptism as a Mormon was dross, a kind of manure only fit for fertilizing Mormonism and what I might be as a Mormon. If someone had told me that prior to my investigating the church I wonder what effect that would have had on my attitude toward the church.

I've noticed that I've very much gone back to the personality I had before I joined the Church, even though I was only a teen at the time.

I don't mean that I've gone back to the immaturity of a teenager, but my personality in general is more relaxed and I'm much more comfortable in my own skin.

That does tend to happen, I think, but I'd argue that it's a good thing, and not a bad one, whether or not the Bishop would agree.

In order to fit the rigid mold of Mormonism, we have to chip away at our authentic selves, on and on, until there is almost nothing left. Then we either give up and bleat “baa, baa”…

…or leave the church, heal, and move on!

I really like that WWN. A basic insight I had in my growing disaffection with the church was that I was not being true to myself, to the ambitions of my youth, that I was just being tossed through a series of motions, dancing someone else's dance and not my own. The years ahead of me just seemed more of the same, a changeless rote chain of mindless, ritual activity chased about until death. It was a bleak path, nothing heroic or truly interesting about it. It was a known path, a safe path, a path without heart, and in the end, ironically for a Mormon, a path without character or integrity.

I always felt I was a number and not a member in the Mormon church. I remember while the Missies where teaching friends of mine that I would be asking more qustions then my friends were. The Missies and I were comfortable with one another, age thing I think, and when I would question a teaching I would be brushed off in a friendly way. It didn't matter what I believed or doubted for that matter, I was already in..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2011 08:08PM by seamaiden.

how her family discusses the daughter's private things with the Bish and then he discusses with the "group".

#1 Most Christian churches have a Minister or Pastor who counsels a couple in confidence, but has the in-laws butt out, much like a physician and medical records.

#2 If the couple needs counseling, they would ask for it and hope the Bish keeps their dirty garmies private.

Oh, but we are not talking about a Christian church. We are talking about the Third Reich where every aspect of your life is open for discussion and planned out by untrained, unpaid "temporary clergy". What a sad joke.

I really don't think most Mormons realize how completely they've been brainwashed to view non-LDS people as lesser than themselves. It starts young. A recent service project in the stake I live in had 12 year old girls taking cookies to inactives. Did you catch that? They called it a service project implying that those who have religious beliefs different from Mormons are in need of help on the level of a homeless man, a pregnant teen or a tsunami victim. It's that same pity I heard in the Primary President's voice when I was active, when she talked about how sorry she felt for the little children in the Primary who's parents were inactive and didn't bring those children to church. It is anyone who is discussed in Ward Council Meeting as being in need of help who have not gone to the bishop asking for help. I mean, how arrogant is that? Deciding someone needs you to help them fix their lives when they themselves don't feel there is anything wrong with their lives. And it's all sold to Mormons as being "charitable" and "looking out for the lost sheep" and somehow praiseworthy.

It's an example of my current pet peeve about Mormonism. That it teaches people with good intentions to do bad things by messing with their minds so they view good as evil and evil as good.

A perfect example of how they refuse to let people grow up.

Mom, dad, bishop, all need to BUTT out!

Mormons think everything, and everyone is their business, and they have a right to intrude,manipulate, control, and project their crap on others. How do you deal with people that nuts?

I totally believe many Mormons who think of converts' lives before Mormonism do consider their life as being an empty slate - not worthy of a mention of any accomplishments they may have made or any great deeds they did or being a good student, kind neighbor, etc. IT was all a worthless life. I truly think many Mormons feel that way and that is why they treat us nonmormons so badly and rudely. We are ghost creatures to them and that is all.

life has meaning outside of the outside of the LDS church. The Church teaches them that it can't, and often their own limited life experiences reinforce this idea.

Just this week at work my co-worker was visited by another individual who also works for the same organization but in another department. It's a small office and it's impossible not to overhear conversations. It turns out the visitor was my co-worker's former visiting teacher. He had moved a year ago and they began to discuss the woman who had bought his home.

They were puzzled by this woman's refusal to let her children attend ward activities, how she refused visiting teachers, etc. (Pretty much like me, I thought). They speculated about her for quite awhile.

After the visitor left, my coworker began to discuss this woman with me. I told her about situations where it became clear to me that I and my family have been the subject of similar conversation and find it very intrusive and disrespectful. I told her that the woman must have her reasons, she isn't obligated to explain herself, and her wishes should be respected even if you don't agree or understand them.

She stood there for a minute reflecting on my comments and said "I guess". It never occurs to mormons that they should just back off. It never occurs to them that they are being offensive. It never occurs to them that they just can't excuse away their bad behavior with "we mean well".

That's another example of how arrogant they are:

"It never occurs to them that they just can't excuse away their bad behavior with "we mean well".

They treat others in ways they would never tolerate being treated themselves and they want a pass for their offensive behavior because they "mean well" or "have good intentions". Well, here's a surprise - so do most people. And that may make their bad behavior more understandable but it doesn't make it acceptable. You don't get a free pass because you are doing something with good intentions if it produces bad results.

less actives is expected in their culture. Suggesting that perhaps people who have moved away from the church should just be left alone is directly contrary to the teachings and the culture of the church. Repeated, unwanted reaching out to the inactive isn't just "well meaning," it's what most Mormons have been taught since birth is not only the right, but the ONLY acceptable, course of action.

This makes for very difficult situations. The inactive/exmormon reasonably expects to be treated as a human being, to be evaluated on his or her own merits, and to be dealt with on his or her own, or at least mutual, terms. Unfortunately, Mormon culture does not contemplate that doing so is possible - rather, people fit into categories and are dealt with accordingly. It is absolutely foreign to the culture to treat anyone as an individual or to acknowledge individual differences on material issues. I don't profess to have a solution but there's more to it than people just being thick or rude - it's a failure of an entire system of values.

Another common mormon response to any complaint about their instrusive, arrogant behavior is "I'm sorry you're upset about (fill in the blank)."

Okay, it's subtle but they aren't saying "I'm sorry you were treated poorly or that our behavior was instrusive and arrogant". They are only saying "I'm only sorry you're upset about the intrusive, arrogant behavior." They don't apologize for the actual behavior because good intentions should provide absolution and you really should't be upset about it.

Several years back a friend (not LDS) said to me that no matter how hard you try to follow another person's ideas or ways of being you tend to revert back to the person you really are. I have found this to be very true. I converted in 2002 and left in 2010. I think now the way I did then and really deep down always knew something was not right in my new faith. I couldn't believe all of it for very long and started with doubts a year after I joined.

For me I started doubting within the year I joined. I wanted out very shortly after being baptized. The problem was, I realized that the religion I was prior to joining the Mormon church still held "truths" for me. I was evangelical christian, and they HATE Mormons.

If I went back I would be pelted with anti-mormon facts, which I already knew, I lived it! If I stayed Mormon I would be pelted with meetings with the bishop, and looks of disdain because I did not have a strong enough faith to live the strict lifestyle. I basically had three choices pelting, pelting,or living without God... The latter isn't an easy option when you have the mindset to want that.

I knew I was done when I found out I was pregnant. I showed the planned parenthood paper that said I was pregnant to the bishop, and he rushed me into his office saying I couldn't have an abortion. He then set up a longer meeting to discuss things. At that meeting I was told that the church had its on adoption service, and that my child could go to a nice Mormon family. My first thought was " Hell no, I'm not giving you my baby" No way would my child suffer in this lifestyle, not gonna happen.

How big of a red flag does someone need, Still I stayed!

from a rfm thread:


People will dislike you most when you don't do what they want you to do.

I guess that shows the fundamentally manipulative point of so much that we have to deal with as Exmos.

Why does Jesus need to manipulate people and sell them so hard on what he is about? Oh right. Sin is so attractive.

still treating adults like children, geeze. they had a meeting about this couple!!! what a bunch of spies. he's retreating to his pre mormon ways!!!LOL better call the police cuz he is retreating to pre mormon waysLOL. what a bunch of taddle tellers

They have meetings like that about people all the time. This is SOP for Mormons. Everyone who isn't coming to church all the time needs rescuing. It's ridiculous but there it is.

> What does that say about Mormons' views of non-Mormons?
> Maybe a Mormon viscerally dislikes the idea that a mere
> gentile can steal one of them away from her precious LDS
> heritage?

what does it say? MORmONS HATE everybody!
they hate other religions. and they hate other MORmONS.
MOST OF ALL THEY HATE ppl who have been members and then have the audacity to leave MORmONISM. And when its all factored out Many MORmONS would just as soon give dissenters & apostates the good old Laban treatment. They are just waiting for God to whisper in their ear, proving that they are just as special as the fabled (murderer) Nephi. Good MORmONS are tired of waiting to become gods, they want their own world and they want it now. They dont want to deal with scummy lessers who arent on their way to MORmON godhood.

The bishop is only coming from his own deceived mindset. He is concerned for the woman - as well as her parents - because he is looking through his mormon filtered glasses. You, those who have been TBM, should know. Mormons don't hate everyone. They are good people trying to live what they believe is the truth. Hitting them over the head with equally hatefull retorts will serve them nothing but reinforce their faith and make them believe they are being persecuted for their faith - all is well. You think after their ancestors have crossed the plains in hardship that they will abandon it all because you say so? Be nice. Have compassion. BE PATIENT. They will come around. IDK what the husband was up to, but perhaps he was a bad influence on his wife. Maybe he was into drugs. Who knows? In fact, every Bishop I've ever known has been a good guy - can't say that for Stake Presidents - but I'm sure he has her best interest at heart.

As converts we played the game. We knew what was what. We had lived their lives and then said, "Nope, not for me thank you." We are very blatantly telling them that what they are selling is a lie. Of course they are going to hate that.

I don't think Mormons are good people. I find them extremely manipulative, condescending, and self righteous.

I felt that way for awhile. But my life is filled with family who are Mormon That are none of those things. Just people who are Mormon and the only way they know how to be.

Many are christian too. Some person at some time might have said that about me (I doubt it though). Haha.

The Church of Jesus Christ LDS is a business. As with any business it has one goal--to grow. That is acomplished in two ways (#1)acquiring new business (members) and (#2)retaining old business (members).
If you are an employee of the business and in management (like a Bishop) it is vital that you do whatever it takes to retain business (members).
Anyone who has ever been in sales will understand how it works.
The LDS Church is all about selling itself to new (converts) and keeping old (members).

Arrogance and condescension from mormon leaders like bishopricks when you are doing all you can is difficult to tolerate even at the best of times.

When it is directed are your children, it become impossible to handle because they are just too young to understand. How do you explain to small kids that Brother & Sister Jackwagon are well, jerks? It also makes it difficult to get kids to want to come to church when everyone acts nasty and mean. I always had a problem anyway with concept of forcing my kids to go to church when they don't want to come-this just makes it impossible, doesn't it? Its bad enough being hungry, having long meetings, wearing uncomfortable clothes-the list just goes on and on.

We ran into this arrogance problem after the birth of our last daughter. She had serious complications requiring several post delivery surgeries and our life was focused around her survival. We were travelling to specialists and things were really tough, with work, school and our other kids. This made church attendence sporadic for about a year and we went without attending anything at church for a six month stretch during one particular tough surgery and recovery.

You would have thought the world was coming to an end according to our ward leaders. There is no excuse for missing church and "possible" church assignments! We didn't even have callings at the time, so it was ridiculous to expect us to come to church just because they "might" need us to do something.

The judgements and attitude coming from people that knew us for years was heart wrenching and difficult. To put it short, we were shunned. Nobody cared that we had a legitimate reason for nonattendance. In their minds, there was no excuse and that was final! It was pure hell, but on a good note it caused us to start really questioning things. Why are we part of a church that clearly doesn't want us or our family?

It was so bad that we attended a local non-mormon church one Sunday (right down the street no less instead of 35 minutes away!) during Christmas because we needed a break from all the angst. What a revelation that was! We treated so nice! The local minister and his wife were very kind. It was shocking! People actually listened, were sypathetic and get this: They brought food to us and visited our daughter at the hospital! I know that not all mormon wards are like ours was, but shunning isn't an isolated thing in mormonism and believe me, it's not an experience you want to be on the wrong side of.

It came to a head when they started going after my at that time 11 year old daughter. The Sister in charge of the girl's primary activity days felt it necessary to single my daughter out and grill her on church doctrine seperate from her group and also ridicule her publically about how stupid she was if she didn't know some esoteric fact to this Sister's satisfaction. Even though my daughter got the right answers, the woman couldn't let it go. It seemed to infuriate her that our daughter was pretty knowledgable. That her husband was 2nd Councilor in the Bishoprick didn't help. She then went on a crusade about my daughter's clothing and her "immodesty" when her knowledge proved sufficient. She was the ringleader of a clutch of Sister's and their daughters were bullies towards mine. So my daughter stopped attending activity days/primary and the glares on Sunday got so bad that we just started only going to Sacrament.

We finally left for good when the Bishop wouldn't let us bless our baby in sacrament because she had Down's Syndrome. They considered it a "embarassement" and "proof" that my wife and I were sinners, because children so disabled are only born to those who are "wicked and prideful." We needed to bless her in a private ceremony on Saturday instead because blessing her on Sunday wouldn't be faith promoting. They also didn't want me to bless her because of our attendance issues. The whole thing was just unbelieveable.

This kind of thing can be very damaging too because it is very difficult to go against a bishoprick because they are automatically respected and considered "holy" by ward members, even with those that know you and your family. If they say its x, then it must be so.

It gets worse when you realize you are paying tithing to an organization of people that treats you this way. I believe that's why ordinaces and the temple (temple recommends) are so important to the mormon church. It gets people to put up with garbage they normally wouldn't tolerate because let's face it, you wouldn't want to mess up you eternal future, would you? Good thing its all bupkiss, eh? Makes it easy to flush, but it certainly leaves you angry and mad at buying into the whole thing.

I just glad we resigned a decade ago. Who needs this crap? Life is to short going around miserable all the time. I've been so much happier since I left.

OMG Lost........that is fucking insane.
I sat there for a long time looking at the words you shared over and over again. The cult doesn't need to make "Anti-Mormon enemies" out of us. They are their OWN WORST FUCKING NIGHTMARE ENEMY and they are reaping the rewards of their efforts as they continue to crumble from within. Disgusting. This, and far too many other horror stories like it, are why I couldn't get my name off their records fast enough when I told them to remove me, I'm done.
And yes, this whole thread resonates very deeply with me as well. The more light that can shine in from the outside world on this deeply toxic and damaging cult, the better.

I can't believe they wouldn't allow you to bless your daughter b/c she was DS. That sounds like something from some wacko John Birch Society ward in the deep woods or up in the mountains, isolated from folk in a Deliverance-style banjo-strummed fundamentalist faith-healing nightmare.

Wards I've been in I think the members would all have been appalled at such grounds for rejecting a baby's blessing in church.

Now the not coming to church very often, and holding the baby's blessing over the parents' heads b/c they didn't come enough to satisfy the Bishop and his ideas about how much True Gospel brain programming was necessary to be able to properly have the Holy Ghost for blessing--I can see that happening in many a ward.

Hmm...2onder where the parents learned how to be so passive-aggressive controlling? Egads!

As for a 'Downs' child, when I was in the Church we were taught that those spirits who were extra valient in pre-existance were prime targets for Satan here in this life. Because of being so targeted, Heavenly Father blessed them with being forever childlike in this life and therefore out of Satan's reach.

So, we were taught that those children were very special spirits, and a blessing to their families.

I have noticed how different wards have their own "spin" on things...another checkmark in the column under "The Church isn't guided by the Holy Spirit"

More crap happens at the local level - self-administering idiots.