I'm completely freaked out about the church. By now I'm pretty much sure that Joseph Smith was full of crap, a fake, and a pervert. But doubts keep coming in my mind...weren't the prophets ALWAYS made fun of in the past? Weren't Christ's true followers always persecuted? etc. etc...but of course that might just be me being in denial.

The fact is, I'm scared of losing everything I have with the church. I'm engaged to an ultra ultra ULTRA TBM. We will definitely break up if I tell him I don't want to go to the temple. I don't really even know anyone who's not Mormon...I used to, but now my circle has gotten really small. I definitely don't have any non-Mormon close friends, at least not within 100 miles. Besides work, basically all of my social activities are LDS-related. I love my fiance, and my friends. I love having a community. I'm scared of being endlessly stalked and giving in and regretting my decision in the end because I don't know who I am anymore. I tried to get coffee today and I freaked out and kept looking over my shoulder. This is after joining the church only a year and a half ago.

Is it worth it to stay in the church just for the people?

Only if you don't mind looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life any time you do something they don't condone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2011 06:36PM by lostinutah.

Interesting.

Something to think about.

The initial step can seem hard (it is designed that way). You WILL make new friends, and if you fiancee breaks up wit hyou over that, he isn't worth his weight in dog crap.

Trust me I know. I am an divorced exmormon. I lost all my 'friends' and wife over it. But I am free and it was a small price to pay.

Given your feelings, this is not the man for you. Even if you want to stay in the church (and at this point, there doesn't seem to be that much holding you in,) you would be far more compatible with a partner who is NOM-ish (New Order Mormon.) Have you told your fiance that you believe that "Joseph Smith was full of crap , a fake, and a pervert?" I'm guessing not. Because you know just how he would react to that. And yet you are considering marrying a man with whom you cannot share your deepest thoughts and feelings. This does not bode well.

Mormon friendships can often be conditional in nature. You may love them, but if you left the church I'm betting that most, if not all of those friendships would vanish in short order. Is that really what you want in a friendship?

If you want to have a church community, there are so many other denominations that you could join that would not tell you how to think, what to wear, how much to pay to the church, etc. I've read so many wedding stories in the newspaper that talk about how the bride and groom met at the Presbyterian church, the Lutheran church, etc.

Also, if you have a good relationship with your parents, do not even consider for a second marrying in the temple. Your loving parents deserve to be at your wedding. It would be a major slap in the face if you excluded them (and no, a ring ceremony is not an adequate substitute.) A fiancee who truly cares about you would be completely on board with that.

Yup. In fact the early tarring and feathering of JS was only because he had made an agreement with a larger group of "treasure-diggers" that if any of the group found treasure the finder would share it with the group. The group considered the gold plates a "treasure" that by agreement should be shared with the group. Of course JS screwed even his other partner-con men adn they were angry with him. Of course they didn't know either that the whole thing was bogus anyway.

It's a reminder that there is barely a single story, anecdote or narrative from TSCC about its origins, JS, or other historical figures, that isn't false -- often in a MAJOR way.

Don't believe this? Pick one. Try it.

Many of the early Christians were indeed persecuted, but it was because of their beliefs...

Joseph Smith, however, was "persecuted" for having sex with other men's wives, for practicing polygamyin secret, for defrauding several of his early followers, and finally was imprisoned and later killed by a mob after he had destroyed a printing press in revenge for unflattering (but true) stories about his misdeeds coming to light. Other early Mormons were persecuted mainly because of polygamy--that is, exploiting multiple women for sexual gratification, breeding, and free labor. So I believe they were being rightfully persecuted.

I doubt many of Jesus' followers in the early Church, by contrast, were practicing polygamy, defrauding people of their life's savings, etc. I don't think there's much comparison.

texasmorm, if you are freaked out about buying coffee then there's something wrong in your life! That in itself is a sign you need to get out ASAP.

You're right about prophets being unpopular (persecution is a matter of perspective in most cases). But the Church is all about plausibility. If you want to believe then you will always find an excuse, an explanation, a rationalization.

You have seen the fraud for what it is, but in its doctrine and portrayal of history the Church the Church always leaves some wiggle room. The endowment ceremony is modified from the Masonic ceremonies? No way, the apologists say! They may have had a common source, but ours is the purer version. See, there's always a way to believe if you want to.

Regarding your fiance, I recommend honesty because it will result in the best outcome. Either he will decide he loves you more than the Church or you will be free from a man who loves his Church more than he loves you. There's always a chance he is harboring secret doubts. If you mention that you no longer believe - but without challenging him or expecting an answer - he might surprise you.

You can have my lack of doubts and the freedom that comes with it after decades of membership and I get to be you right now with your options. I would ask your lover what he loves more me or the church? Can you love me and marry me if I never choose mormonism and can you live a lifelong marriage without converting me and protect me from those who would?

If its the church then your goose is cooked. If you follow through with the marraige when you know better then you get what you deserve, which is having a religiious organization with the backing of your husband in control of your loins. Have a great time with that. No personal dreams for you only kids, diapers, RS and homemaking meetings and no complaining.

OR, you can slow down and put things on hold and give yourself TIME. Time to regroup before making a lifelong commitmant that you already know you will regret.

Friends are earned not made instantaneously by becoming a member of something. Making new friends is not something to fear and a lack of them is a short lived problem only.

Oh and by the way. I really, really, really wish that I was in your shoes right now.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2011 06:58PM by AmIDarkNow?.

It can be done but only if he knows how you feel about the Church and will love you if you don't keep going.

My husband and I have been married for 20 yrs. He knew up front I would never convert and never raise children in the religion. We still married and he's a wonderful husband. It took 10 years for him to find his way out of the Church. I didn't help him at all. It was purely his choice.

But your fiance has a right to know how you feel and if he loves the church more so be it. You will be better off.

If not you are going down a lonely road. The person closest to you will not know you. It will be a big problem. You will not as was said be able to pursue your dreams. They will be gone.

Look carefully at what you want for yourself and then decide is pretending to believe the way to get it? I don't think so.

Can you say what area you live in? There are many exmo support groups around the country.

Try finding a book club or an organization (not religion) to be part of.

You need to get other friends, otherwise they will continue to pull you back in.

Postpone your wedding for a bit to give you time to breathe. You need to figure yourself out before you commit all that you have to the church (that is what the temple ceremony is)

texasmorm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> But doubts keep coming in my mind...weren't the prophets
> ALWAYS made fun of in the past?

I think the bible is a bunch of bunk, but just for this conversation, let's pretend it's true.

So the other Prophets in the bible didn't claim to see an angle, then wait a decade and say that actually it was God and Jesus.

That makes JS a much bigger fraud than the prophets in the bible.

Looking over your shoulder, all for a harmless little cup of coffee?? Makes me sad. Even sadder is that it will be the least of your worries if you marry this guy. Read, read, and read some more of this board and shed some light on the new set of challenges you will face if you marry a TBM as a closet unbeliever. It is a scary thing to admit you don't believe and call off an engagement, but you can be brave and it sounds like it will save you a lot of pain in the future. Losing a social circle is also scary, but Mormon friendships are very conditional- I would much rather have a group of friends who care for me as a person, than "friends" who value me as a fellow member of their religion. Branch out, find a group, get on Meetup, or (even though it's not my thing) find a faith community where you feel comfortable and free to live your life, where you would NEVER look over your shoulder in fear!

Also, persecution- people have already summed up the history better than I can, but I swear Mormons are champions at playing the victim. I've lost several (LDS) people I thought were friends over Prop 8, because they were so blinded by their persecution complex they couldn't see they had become the persecutors. Yes, early Christians were absolutely persecuted, but NOT in the way the early Mormons and creepy Joseph Smith were, and not for the same reasons.

All I can is GET THE HELL OUT WHILE YOU CAN!

"...weren't the prophets ALWAYS made fun of in the past? Weren't Christ's true followers always persecuted?"

There's a simple reason, most of it is lunacy.

This might be hard for you to do at this point in your life but please give it a try.

Open your bible to page one. You'll read a simple, one page long description of the creation of the universe and everything in it.

Now flip over the page and read chapter two. This is also a simple one page long description of the creation of the universe and everything in it.

One little problem, chapter one doesn't agree with chapter two. The order in which things get created is different.

This is not a translation problem. We're not talking about some one changing 'happy' to 'glad'. We're talking about a day-by-day time line of events on page one that shows up in a different order on page two.

That's the way the bible starts and it doesn't get any better from there.

The rest of the OT is filled with the ravings of a genocidal sky god that is constantly commanding 'his children' to march over there and kill every single man, woman, child.

The pages of the OT are dripping with the blood of the innocent.

Of course religions have been kicking the living snot out of each other for all recorded history. Those stories aren't unique to the Jewish/Christian/Moslem tradition. But it is kind of unbelievably how proud they are of genocide.

Now days, Christians seem to like to try to ignore the OT as much as possilbe and try to spin stories about a long haired hippy Jesus full of peace, love, and understanding. Of course they generally ignore all the stuff like,

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

and

" 49 I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! 51 Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. (Luke 12:49-53)"

The Mormon books are equally crazy. The BOM is another long set of stories in the style of the OT, and then JC shows up and kicks the snot out of the continent and destroys who knows how many hundreds of thousands (millions) of people.

And this is what they call their Good Books. What the hell do they have in their bad ones?

Those readings shouldn't be just read standing alone. but rather in the way intended. It was to make a point. It was not to taken literally. How do I know this? It bothered me to read that in the Missal so I asked our Priest. He carefully explained. Nope do not take it literally, not meant that way.

+100 to everandanon's post



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2011 09:58PM by lostinutah.

You're going into a marriage already with secrets you can't share with him. That doesn't bode well.

No, it's not worth living your life in fear and misery just so you can get the approval of people whose beliefs you don't follow. If you're scared about ordering an everyday item such as coffee? That is a huge warning sign that you need to change your life in a major way. You are not meant to be LDS. And that's okay.

Living in fear of your fiance's possibility of breaking up with you because you don't believe in the same faith anymore? That's an incredibly unhealthy way to begin a marriage, and dooms it before it even starts because you're showing such disrespect to BOTH of your belief systems by faking a temple wedding.

IT's like that famous line from the Godfather movie:
"Just when I think I'm out they pull me back in".

Not laughing at you, just laughing with you.

The Mormon brainwashing will wear off in time.
Dump the guy and RUN.

Will there be children? How do you feel about your children being indoctrinated into Mormonism from birth? Once there are kids, it gets really complicated if one of the parents wants out of the Church.

So you think being "watched" is okay. You assume people were watching you. Why would they? Because they want to judge you. Being a Mormon is all about judging. You are never good enough. If you want a life of church, church and more church and not having free choice in your life then stick with it. If you want them to take 10% of your hard earned money rather than you spending 10%, if care to spend that much, in ways that make you happy, then stick with it. They do not account for the money you give. They feel it is no one's business. Well, that is because they feel they owe their members nothing.

But from the sound of things you know JS was a fake and a pervert and married other men's wives, etc. Do you really think God sent that man here on Earth to wake everyone up to something??? I would say stick with your gut feeling. And if you used to know nonmormons you can know them again. You have family I suppose who are not Mormon. Never forget that moms and Dad's who watch a child convert to a false religon are hurting badly. I am one of them. If they brought you up in a religion that is not a whacko one then seeing you turn to Mormonism crushed them.

I would never marry a man who belonged to a religion I did not believe in. He will expect so much from you so he can advance and get what he thinks he is due. Seriously think about how Mormonism will slow you down and make your life less than it could be. Also think about future kids and how you would have to fake it due to hubby. Take it slow and you will know what to do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2011 10:27PM by honestone.

you live in fucking Texas -- the second most populous state in the country.

are you shitting me that you don't know anybody who's nomo?

You are around more Mexicans, Crackers and descendants of deported slaves than Mormons. By about 20-fold.

Are you shitting me?

Try this, leave your house, find a neighborhood that still has sidewalks and talk to the first person you meet.

He She will not be a mormon. It's really that easy. Have you ever even noticed that everyone around you is a lot happier than you? Seriously? BBQ, Mex, chicken fried steak, fried catfish and everyone is washing it down with beer. And they are all fat happy campers. Just step outside your house and talk to the first Texan you meet.

And while you're walking all of ten feet before you meet someone, ask yourself this...

Am I going to punt this shit to the next generation, or am I going to put a stop to this silliness.

You are surrounded by mormons in Texas, what the fuck is wrong with you?

Oh, and I say this with love. What the fuck is wrong with you?

Scooter, my response was so nice and then I read yours. Yours was so much better. You tell her!!!

I don't live in Texas now, I'm FROM there...I lived there all my life until three months ago, which is why I don't know anyone except the people from my church.

And, I don't know, the Mormons I know seem pretty dang happy--that's exactly what confuses me. I just graduated from college and everybody there was getting wasted, sleeping around, getting STDs, getting broken hearted over one night stands gone wrong, doing drugs and wasting their lives. At least the Mormons seemed like they had nice families that stuck together. Now I've figured out that "happiness" and "togetherness" is highly conditional based on control and coercion.

It's all made me pretty cynical.

It can take some time (and even some false starts) to make new friends. Expecting that process to come quickly or easily would be a mistake.

You mentioned that everyone at your alma mater was in full party mode. I went to a big party school, and even then I knew a number of students who were not that way. And even most of the partiers of my acquaintance eventually settled down, married, got respectable jobs and have lived more or less normal lives.

Have you even *tried* attending other, more mainstream churches?

And exactly how long have you known your fiance, anyway?

Sweetie,

Everybody does stupid shit like that in college. But then they grow up.

Mormons aren't ALLOWED to party or experiment with their identity in their 20's! They are expected to serve missions or marry an RM and start popping out babies before they even get their degree.

I converted in my 20's, too, because my life was a mess and the Mormon's seemed so "happy." barf. I eventually married a 5th generation Mormon man.

Twenty or so years later, I left the church with all of my children (who, according to their age, were in various stages of LDS brainwashing). Quite honestly, leaving the church fucked up some of my kids pretty badly. My husband remains a JackMormon who refuses to resign with the rest of us. Our lives have been pretty much a trainwreck the past couple of years.

Getting your *family* out of the cult is a whole lot harder than just getting your 20-something, single self out.

Run girl. I mean it. Get the HELL out now!

;o)

Scooter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And while you're walking all of ten feet before
> you meet someone, ask yourself this...
>
> Am I going to punt this shit to the next
> generation, or am I going to put a stop to this
> silliness.

An excellent post, Scooter.

Glad2B Out

That demand your marriage be a certain way without any input from you and what you want?

That would break up with you because you do not want to get married in the temple?

That limit your circle of friends to just church members?

That are so petty that they even care if you drink coffee or not?

To answer your question "Is it worth it to stay in the church just for the people?" you need to answer for yourself, what kind of people you want to hang with and if mormons are that sort of people. To me, it does not sound like Mormons and you are a good fit. So I suggest you go out and find friends who will love and accept you for who you are. I think you should dump the people that try to make you fit into their idea of what you should be.

Well...if you like coffee...the answer is no...

You're between a rock and a hard place...

stormy

texasmorm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Is it worth it to stay in the church just for the
> people?

Of whom do you speak? If you have been only a member for a year and a half, then your family will not be permitted to attend your wedding.

Not surprisingly since the subject is mormonism, there wasn't a reference to Jesus or God as the impetus of your being a mormon in your original post. If you are looking for a community, there are other organizations that offer genuine, deep and valued relationships and friendships. The relationships in mormonism are largely superficial and conditional in nature; you will get burned more than once should you decide to remain.

What can you live with? How much are you willing to suppress in order to make others happy? What of your conscience and what of your happiness?

Glad2B Out

The Dilithium crystals are overheating !

I'm afraid so.

My dear Texasmom:

I am new to this board but I simply MUST tell you something. I am sorry to just barge in like this.

You wrote: " And, I don't know, the Mormons I know seem pretty dang happy--that's exactly what confuses me. I just graduated from college and everybody there was getting wasted, sleeping around, getting STDs, getting broken hearted over one night stands gone wrong, doing drugs and wasting their lives. At least the Mormons seemed like they had nice families that stuck together."

Please do not let that fool you! Many, MANY mormons are deeply unhappy.
When I was a member, I was always unhappy. Morbidly depressed even. Suicidal.
But nobody knew. I was too afraid to show it. I believed I did not feel happiness because I was not worthy enough. Because I didn't study/pray/think pure thoughts etc.. enough. And ofcourse, I could not let anybody know this!

The church teaches that in worthiness, true happiness is found.
And I was very unhappy, so I was obviously doing something wrong.. right?...

Well, As I said, I did not show this! None of my friends considered for one minute that I was that depressed. Our whole ward fell over backwards in shock and astonishment when we announced our divorce and I left the church.
Nobody had even an faint idea of what was really going on because we were the perfect mormon family. We wore the perfect mask.
I wore the perfect mask.

My friends kept asking me: "but you had such a strong testimony! You gave such great talks..how could this happen?"

Well, it happened because it was all a lie! I lied to not be 'found out'. I played the perfect role. And in the end it nearly destroyed me.

So please, PLEASE don't let the happy faces fool you. Please don't.

I wish you strength and wisdom.

If you want any confirmation of that, I have heard that Utah County, Utah (perhaps one of the most Mormon counties in the country) has the highest per capita rate of anti-depression prescriptions in the country. Happy on the outside, but otherwise missing the fun they could have had in their 20s while they were pressured into having babies for the church? Now trying to raise a bunch of kids with a high debt load? I dunno.

If you want to keep your LDS friends, stay at church. As soon as you stop going, you will lose 90% of your LDS friends. The rest will be difficult to maintain or will be people on the margins ready to leave themselves.

As for your fiancé, no relationship should be based on a lie. If you don't believe in the church, you have to tell him. If he dumps you, that's his choice. Marrying him by pretending to be a TBM guarantees you will be divorced.

In fact, to marry him you would have to get a temple recommend. They will ask you if you believe in the church and accept Tommy Monson as PSR. If you say yes, based on what you posted here, you are a liar. While I don't think the church has any right to ask you those questions, to lie to your bishop and SP under to get a temple marriage license is really lying to your husband. Your husband has every right to expect an honest relationship. How would you feel if you were lying to you about some key aspect of himself?

The pie crust friendships at church are worthless. If your relationship with your fiancé will be destroyed by you speaking honestly about your religious beliefs, then your marriage will be worthless, too. The last thing you want to do is bring children into such a fragile, dishonest home.

That is so true, Becca. I remember my non-Mormon mother asking me why my religion didn't seem to make me happy. That really startled me, because I hadn't even noticed that I was miserable.

As soon as I realized how badly the Church was affecting my self-esteem, I left. That was long before I discovered that the Church wasn't true.

The moment I left, my self-esteem began to heal. I'm happier and more comfortable in my own skin now, than I ever have been in my entire life.

Reading through all of the above overwhelmed ME, I can only imagine how you must feel right about now! As you can see, there are a lot of different perspectives on here(not to mention some very opinionated people).

What is important for you right now, is to figure out what works for you, personally. If I was in your shoes, I'd start by taking two sheets of paper, and writing down what makes you feel positive emotions about the church on one, and what makes you feel negative emotions about it on the other. Don't feel like you have to validate your feelings ("oh, well...I won't put that, since I really shouldn't feel that way"). Take a step back, and look at them logically and pragmatically. Does the good outweigh the bad? Is it the other way around?

The truth is, you're not going to get a balanced opinion from either here or the church. Both have a lot at stake, for different reasons.

One thing that you should consider, though, is that if you've been a member for such a short period of time, people in the church are probably making allowances for aspects of your behavior, because you're "new". Even your fiance might be, without realizing it.

When you get married, though, and even more as you start to have kids and raise a family, those around you in the church will feel like they have a right to guide you to be a "proper" mormon. Any pressure you feel now will not compare.

Think about it this way... do you think you can stay in it for the long-haul, that is, your entire life? Not likely if you're posting on an exmo message board. You're only going to find more and more stuff that draws you away. Trust me, you will. So the real question is, why continue to pretend when the outcome of your disbelief is inevitable?

My wife and I were trying to figure out ways that we could stay in the morg, but we didn't feel it was right after learning what we did. Maybe you need to continue researching to steel your resolve.

I'd suggest heading on over to http://www.mormonthink.com. Be sure to look up all the references to the Journal of Discourses on BYU's online version of the books (http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/browse.php?CISOROOT=%2FJournalOfDiscourses3). That was my real diving off point. Once I realized so much of the craziness could be corroborated through official church material, I knew there was no going back.

Leaving the church is hard. Even with the support of my wife and kids who left with me, it was one of the hardest things I've ever done, but I feel like it was the only way I could be honest with myself. You need to find some like-minded people that can support you in your decision. You can find some support groups by heading over to PostMormon.org (http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewforum/5/#), then hover over Our Community in the navigation, then Post-Mormon Chapters. You have us too. Just don't stop asking questions now. You'll regret it later when you've already completely wrapped up your life in the Mormon mold and then realize that it's utter nonsense.

Good luck texasmorm.

98 or 99 percent of Americans are not Mormon (depending who's numbers you believe), so it shouldn't be hard to eventually find non-Mormon friends. Theoretically your Mormon friends shouldn't leave you, but it seems they often do, so no doubt the first step will be difficult. But cults are designed that way, to trap you into thinking you must stay, that there is something wrong with you if you leave, etc.

Yes prophets were persecuted, but there are plenty of false prophets as well. Just because someone proclaims himself to be a prophet does not make him one. The Gospel of Matthew warns about false prophets (Matt 7:15)

Be true to yourself, and good luck with the transition.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2011 01:52PM by jerry64.