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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: January 05, 2012 01:33PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJu6MA_wF7o

I was so encouraged to listen to Gov. Chris Gregoire speak out about marriage equality.

She speaks of the difficulty of a strong religious belief v. a strong belief in equal rights for all of us.

Luckily, the latter won out in her case. I'm wondering how long it will take for the Utah governor to follow suit, and put equal rights above religious beliefs.

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Posted by: Twinker ( )
Date: January 05, 2012 01:34PM


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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: January 05, 2012 02:08PM

Send me a copy of the memo.

I'd like to forward it to Gov. Herbert & a few other governors, and ask them what happened to the separation of church & state.

Further, how can they justify continuing to support the 2nd class status of GLBT citizens in their respective states.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2012 02:24PM by PapaKen.

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Posted by: intellectualfeminist ( )
Date: January 05, 2012 02:22PM

I saw that, and will probably share it on FB. I'm glad to see more and more legislators figuring it out. I also read a story just the other day about a Catholic priest in Australia who is spearheading an effort to promote equality, and protect LGBT rights, even lives, after a gay man was murdered on parish grounds by another man who gave the 'gay panic' excuse in defense. More and more people are waking up. And as usual, LD$ Inc. will eventually be dragged along kicking and screaming, about 10-15 years behind the rest of the world along with maybe hard-core fundy types and other fringe extremists.

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Posted by: me7 ( )
Date: January 06, 2012 03:53PM

Gov. Gregoire says she is Catholic but I would call her a Cafeteria Catholic. She only picks out those things she wants to believe in and support and the rest she throws away. Supporting "gay" marriage (there is really no such thing as Marriage is a Sacrament between and women and a man) is in effect denying her Catholic faith. You can't support Anti-Catholic issues and say you are a good practicing Catholic. It's the same with Abortion...you can't be Catholic and support Abortion. You can't choose good and evil at the same time...either you are for one and not the other...or for the other and not the one. Big Contradiction! I wish she would not state she is Catholic, because in reality, she is not. Supporting "gay" marriage is supporting something that is intrinsically evil, which is outlawed by the Catholic faith.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: January 06, 2012 04:06PM

Plenty of Catholics do just that. I'mm sure there are people who say they aren't real Catholics, but I find that a bit judgmental.CAtholics are not generally as black and white on issues like this as Mormons.I also do not believe gay marriage is intrinsically evil.Sounds like thinking for oneself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2012 04:48PM by bona dea.

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Posted by: helamonster ( )
Date: January 06, 2012 04:25PM

Good to know. Hi Benny Panzerpope!

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Posted by: grubbygert ( )
Date: January 06, 2012 04:39PM

"She only picks out those things she wants to believe in and support and the rest she throws away."

you say that like it's a bad thing...

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: January 12, 2012 01:57AM

Kinda arrogant in a way as well. Who is she to say that she knows better what it is to be Catholic than the Pope and the Catholic church?

Then, once a person starts to pick and choose what THEY like and do not like, then Catholicism looses much moral authority. Instead of looking to Catholicism for moral guidance, the person is finding what they find morally acceptable and rejecting what is not morally acceptable. In short, the Catholic Church makes a claim about morality, the person then uses their OWN moral standards to judge thus the ultimate moral judge is the person, not the Church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 02:06AM by MJ.

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Posted by: never_kolobian_lurker ( )
Date: January 12, 2012 01:02AM

*coming out of lurking mode*

Actually, me7 you are incorrect in some of your assumptions. So I'm going to explain this in really simple terms.

As a cradle Catholic that spent decades studying religion itself, I grew up knowing that (and I know there are some contradictions which is one of the reasons there's such a wide variance of opinions in the Church) homosexuality itself, in the Catholic Church, is not a sin.

I'll repeat that: Being A Homosexual Person Is NOT A SIN in the Catholic Church.

Also known as: It's OK to be GAY in the Catholic Church.

(Do I have your attention yet? Are you listening?)

What IS a sin, is the ACT of Homosexuality ITSELF (ie. Sodomy and other various acts that do not relate to procreation).

Meaning, that unless you PRACTICE the ACT of SODOMY, a mortal sin, all is well in the eyes of the Lord.

To make this even clearer: Even the flaming, cross-dressing pre-op, transexual gay sashaying down the street is a-ok in the eyes of God.

So all those gays that DON'T indulge in sodomy (and assuming they all do is an incorrect assumption btw) and choose a life being celibate homosexuals within the Church, they are actually in "better standing" in the eyes of the Lord then the ball of self-righteous, finger-pointing Christians ready to burn them at the stake for their natural homosexual tendencies.

Remember the whole "Ye who casts the first stone" speech? I suggest you read up on that.

Yes, the Catholic Church will NEVER allow the SACRAMENT of marriage (and by marriage I mean SACRAMENTAL MARRIAGE within the Catholic Church) between homosexuals because in doing so not only are they enabling the possibility of the ACT of sodomy (which is the mortal sin ITSELF) but also cannot and will not allow marriage between two people that CANNOT move forward with the ACT of PROCREATION.

It's also one of the reasons annulments are granted if one spouse (man or woman) is infertile or reneges on their promise to procreate. Period. SACRAMENT CEASED TO EXIST.

And for that matter, several other sexual acts between a MAN and WOMAN even IF they participated in the SACRAMENT OF MARRIAGE, are ALSO considered mortal sins, because they do not lead to procreation -- but that's a discussion for another day.

HOWEVER, we also need to remember that the Catholic Church DOES NOT recognize any other type of "marriage" that isn't appropriately blessed within the Catholic Church or any pre-approved, Trinitarian protestant church (ie. Episcopalians/Greek Orthodox are) or approved mono-theistic religion (interfaith marriages with Jews).

NOR will it recognize any other type of "marriage" between non-approved "baptized individual/s" of a non-approved religion or sect (ie. mormon/jw/civil marriages) and a Catholic as valid. That marriage, in the eyes of the Lord (and in the Catholic Church) is not a SACRAMENT and therefore does not exist. Period. (Married in the Provo temple? Guess what? The marriage does not exist)

Which is where the whole supporting "gay marriage" issue starts getting complicated.

The issue here isn't really supporting "gay marriage" within the Catholic Church, because the SACRAMENT OF MARRIAGE simply does not exist in this case. Remember, two people of the same-sex cannot EVER procreate WITH EACH OTHER having SEXUAL RELATIONS since they ARE NOT EQUIPPED TO DO SO. Period. PROCREATION being the basis of the SACRAMENT.

The issue here is the civil union, also commonly known as "marriage" between two people of the same-sex at the civil/political level. Which according to Canon Law, isn't recognized either and therefore doesn't exist, so for many "gay-marriage" Catholic supporters the controversy is moot.


It's not that they are supporting something that is "intrinsically evil" therefore it negates their "Catholic-ness" because, if you think about it, Jesus (God himself for Catholics) hung out with prostitutes -- and prostitution is a mortal sin as is sodomy, does that mean Jesus "supports evil?" Does it negate his "God-liness?" Does that make him a "cafeteria God?" No.

And don't even get me started on the whole "divorced" issue. They're really screwed. Mortal sins flying everywhere on a daily basis. Are they "intrinsically evil" too? According to your definition (and probably their ex-spouses) yes they are.

I hope you're not divorced me7.


What most support is the separation between Church and State and disagree with the Catholic Church's insistence in crossing the line and involving themselves into civil matters, completely out of its jurisdiction.

This isn't Italy. This isn't Rome. Heck this isn't even the Vatican where the Pope enjoys being the only non-muslim Absolute Monarch of the world. It's AMERICA. A country founded on the principles of religious freedom and the freedom to live without religion if they choose to do so. The entire concept of "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance has nothing to do with the "Christian God" to begin with, but was in reference to a generic "higher power" since most of the U.S. founding fathers were FREEMASONS.

Supporting "gay marriage" isn't supporting the act of forcing religions to allow "SACRAMENTAL MARRIAGES" between homosexuals in their Churches or buildings. It's supporting the rights of two individuals to have the same basic civil rights as those who participate in civil unions -- also known as "marriage" from a civil and legal standpoint.

And since in your eyes, all mortal sins are "intrinsically evil" -- ok. I hope you never miss Sunday Mass to watch the Super Bowl or lust after the husband of one of your girlfriends, 'cause guess what? That's a mortal sin too.

*back to lurking*

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Posted by: nwmcare ( )
Date: January 12, 2012 10:02AM

never_kolobian_lurker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The issue here is the civil union, also commonly
> known as "marriage" between two people of the
> same-sex at the civil/political level. Which
> according to Canon Law, isn't recognized either
> and therefore doesn't exist, so for many
> "gay-marriage" Catholic supporters the controversy
> is moot.
>
>
> It's not that they are supporting something that
> is "intrinsically evil" therefore it negates their
> "Catholic-ness" because, if you think about it,
> Jesus (God himself for Catholics) hung out with
> prostitutes -- and prostitution is a mortal sin as
> is sodomy, does that mean Jesus "supports evil?"
> Does it negate his "God-liness?" Does that make
> him a "cafeteria God?" No.
>
> Supporting "gay marriage" isn't supporting the act
> of forcing religions to allow "SACRAMENTAL
> MARRIAGES" between homosexuals in their Churches
> or buildings. It's supporting the rights of two
> individuals to have the same basic civil rights as
> those who participate in civil unions -- also
> known as "marriage" from a civil and legal
> standpoint.

Thanks! I couldn't have explained (all of) that better! Again, the Catholic Church does not recognize any marriage unless it takes place in a Catholic ceremony in a sacramental manner after first having been shown to be impediment free (that is, there are no divorces, mental illnesses, underaged kids being forced to marry due to a pregnancy, refusals to have children, or addictions to alcohol or drugs, etc.).

We're talking a civil marriage here. By law, only. No sacrament. Governor Gregoire is not being a cafeteria Catholic. She's just not being a hypocrite.

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Posted by: 3X ( )
Date: January 28, 2012 04:23PM

"Supporting "gay" marriage is supporting something that is intrinsically evil, which is outlawed by the Catholic faith."


Rubbish, and given the recent history of the Catholic church, there is little need to look outside the fold for "intrinsic evil".

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Posted by: me7 ( )
Date: January 28, 2012 05:46PM

StalkerDog...
What? From what I wrote you come up "Why impose your morals on others?" Did I say anything about requiring or even suggesting you adhere to my moral standards? You can do or believe any way you want. If you're for "gay" marriage, go for it.No one is imposing any beliefs on anyone here. But if you are Catholic like the Governor and support "gay" marriage, it's not me that is imposing the law...it's the church and ultimately God. You believe the way you want, but I'm pointing out that you can not believe is both good and bad at the same time on the same issue. You can't support black and white at the same time.

What the Gov. is doing is saying she is Catholic while supporting something way against all Catholic teaching in both moral and natural law.

Moslems would say you either believe our way or you get shot. Did I say that or even come close to that? No, I'm just pointing out the hypocritical stance of some people who say they believe one way and practice the other.

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Posted by: The StalkerDog™ ( )
Date: January 28, 2012 06:25PM

me7, you said, in part: >>you can not believe is both good and bad at the same time on the same issue<<
=============================================
1. But it is not the same issue.

2. Who determines what is "good" and what is "bad"? The church says female priests and gay relationships are bad and evil. Are we not supposed to think about all the evil, pain, and hurt they have swept under so many rugs for so many years, the pain of sexual abuse by trusted people? A gay marriage does not ruin anyone's life. Sexual abuse can and does.

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: January 28, 2012 06:48PM

They pick what they think is okay and ignore the rest.

Some have oral sex and confess it as a minor sin on confession day. Some have multiple marriages (like my father who is devoutly Catholic but technically living in sin with his third legal wife). Some practice birth control.

Governor Gregoire seems perfectly Catholic to me and if she isn't being properly Catholic then maybe you should contact her local parish instead of huffing and puffing on the internet.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: January 06, 2012 06:51PM

Kennedy addressed that in "Profiles in Courage". A politician has two loyalties. First, he should do what he thinks is right, but he also has an obligation to the people who elected him to be their voice. Sometimes there is a conflict.

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Posted by: me7 ( )
Date: January 27, 2012 11:56PM

never_kolobian_lurker------

Being a cradle Catholic myself and having same sex attention...you are preaching to the choir...

If my orientation was itself sinful, I would not be in a position to comment, but I know better than you, it's not.

I'm one of those very few Catholics with same sex attraction who practice by choice chastity and celibacy.

You really think you can tell me what I don't already know??

Are you listening???!!

The word "Gay" implies acceptance of the whole culture of active homosexuality. Those of us who are Catholics who practice chastity (yes, there are some of us around), do not go around calling ourselves "Gay". We are not identified simply by our orientation. We are people, children of God, Catholic, sons, daughters, etc...oh, and somewhere down the line we have same se attraction.

I have same sex attraction and I do not support "Gay" marriage...there is not such thing. It's a sacrament and a sacrament has conditions...one is not being of the same sex.

You can go get a license and say you're married, but in God's eyes, there is no such thing.

The Governor says she Catholic and she probably was brought up that way, but she is not practicing it. Being in her position and supporting "Gay" marriage and abortion, for that matter...which she does also, is not practicing good Catholicism. She says she is Catholic, but not practicing it. That's not the same as saying she's not Catholic because she is not practicing it. Good Catholic do sin but seek forgiveness.

And no, never_kolobian_lurker....I'm not divorced...not ever married, and will never be married....because I have same sex attraction and choose to live a life in accordance with the church's teachings.

You sound as if you know more than me...well you don't. Everything you say above, is known...you didn't say anything that isn't know.

And yes, "Gay" marriage IS intrinsically evil, because it implies gay activity (gay sex). Now, don't go a tell me there are some who are "Gay" married and don't have sex or some type of sexual activity between them.

And don't give me none of this the God of our founding fathers was some higher power business of the Freemasons. There is only one God and it is He who is being offended by liberal practices being imposed upon American in the name of freedom.

back to lurking....

But you do say that

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: January 28, 2012 04:26PM

Really? Then send "Him" over to my house to discuss "His" feelings because what I see here is your own self loathing, not a message from a deity.

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Posted by: OnceMore ( )
Date: January 28, 2012 06:35PM

Sigh. Why is that the majority of people who claim to know what offends God are always the ones who want to restrict the rights of others?

If I were God, I'd be offended by all the doofuses trying to protect my delicate Self from being offended.

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: January 29, 2012 12:36AM

Hey, me7, you wrote "Those of us who are Catholics who practice chastity..."

I love the idea of being celibate & chaste.

In fact, I've been practicing, and now I'm up to 15 minutes of chastity every day.

Maybe some day I'll be as good as you.

<snort>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2012 12:38AM by PapaKen.

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Posted by: The StalkerDog™ ( )
Date: January 28, 2012 12:23AM

You said:>>And don't give me none of this the God of our founding fathers was some higher power business of the Freemasons. There is only one God and it is He who is being offended by liberal practices being imposed upon American in the name of freedom.<<
======================================================
So why do you seem to insist that everyone else must adhere to your standards of Godliness? Why impose your morals on others? Is it a theocracy you're wanting?

Folks like you insisting on your own faith setting the standard would surely be dismayed if, say... everyone all of a sudden had to adhere to the laws of Islam, wouldn't you?

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Posted by: paylayale ( )
Date: January 28, 2012 08:32PM

there is no such thing as EQUALITY in any form. It is one of the greatest lies in the universe.

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: January 28, 2012 09:07PM


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Posted by: Maximos... ( )
Date: January 28, 2012 11:45PM

I lived with a man for 20 years...

He died in 2001 very suddenly...

I am a very convervative Orthodox christian..
He knew that when we got together...

Through our years I always observed the Orthodox fasts..
That is no animal products for the Lenten period...
And no physical encounters through that period...

He observed and respected that...

When we would attend the Paschal services...
He was always beside me....
We would kiss each other when "Christ is Risen"
Was proclaimed...

The fundamental raison detre of my life was...

The moral issue is..
The nature of your love...
Not the object of your love....

Because that his been my well spring...
I have never had a priest or bishop...
Not "communion" me ...

Nor have any parishioners not been other than supportive...

You need to reassess your views of us..
Views of the "other"...
We are here...
We're not going away...

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Posted by: xMo ( )
Date: January 28, 2012 11:55PM

No poly equality = no equality!

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Posted by: The StalkerDog™ ( )
Date: January 29, 2012 12:24AM

Accumulating women as possessions to supposedly secure one's place in heaven or wherever?

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Posted by: xMo ( )
Date: January 29, 2012 12:50AM

No poly equality is no equality, period. No compromise, no negotiating our rights!

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: January 29, 2012 10:49PM

Power of attorney if one is injured and can not act on their own behalf, which person has it, is it a vote, is it the first person their?

Sheared wealth, If someone brings an additional partner into the relationship does everyone get a vote? Since bringing in an additional person would affect the finances of all, then shouldn't everyone have an equal say?

Then about children, they also affect family finances, so does everyone in a polyandrous relationship get to vote on how much is spent on children, leaving open the possibility that the genetic parents can be out voted on matters of their own children. If the genetic parents get to say how much is spent then the other members of the relationship have been left without a say in the financial situations that affect them.

Then, do the people that are in the relationship have any responsibility for raising kids born in the relationship but not genetically related? Could these people be held for neglect for not acting on behalf of the kid if they don't want to finance the kid?

Divorce, since this deals with common property, then would all the shared property of everyone be affected?

The list goes on and on and none of this issues have any legal precedent and need to be dealt with before one can says poly is an equality issue. It is not an equality issue because the legal ramifications are not equal. The legal ramifications of gay marriage are identical to that of male female marriages where the couple can not have kids.

There are a lot of legal issues that are vastly different from that of gay marriage that makes it a totally separate issue from gay marriage,

OF course I firmly expect you not to address what I wrote and just go on shouting the same nonsense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2012 10:50PM by MJ.

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Posted by: xMo ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 05:31AM

Generally I won't debate with polyphobes.

The law is for people, people are not for the law. Laws can easily be fixed to accommodate new social relationships. The fact that laws are not currently designed to take poly relationships into account only demonstrates the historical precedence of monocentric, polyphobic lawmaking processes.

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Posted by: Rebeckah ( )
Date: January 29, 2012 10:20PM

It was just so stupid I think my brain melted.

Heterosexual marriage has been a "norm" since the dawn of time? How the hell would he know?

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: January 29, 2012 10:52PM

Was that guy trying to look stupid?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2012 11:17PM by MJ.

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